[Haneybd87]

So in Lether Iron Bars and company end up fighting a D'ivers that looks like a cat lizard. This to me sounds like a T'rolbarahl. I thought Dejim Nebrahl was unique, or was this not a T'rolbarahl?


MODGOD NOTICE OF THREAD MOVE.
DEJIM WAS A CHARACTER FROM THE BONEHUNTERS.
CARRY ON.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 13 September 2013 - 02:04 PM

[nacht]

This would be a Bonehunters spoiler (albeit minor). Probably best to move it to that forum.

Spoiler

The cat lizards are six in number

Quote

Iron Bars nodded. 'Weapons ready. We're wasting no time on this. How many in there, Corlo?' 'Six, their favourite number.'

Dejim N'ebrahal is special being created from seven T'rohlbarahl

Quote

And so, seven T'rolbarahl had managed to elude their hunters for a time, sufficient to impart something of their souls to a mortal woman, widowed by the Trell Wars and without family, a woman whom none would notice, whose mind could be broken, whose body could be made into a feeding vessel, a M'ena Mahybe, for the seven-faced D'ivers T'rolbarahl child swiftly growing within her.

and is not described as a cat (The tail i was stunted and thick so the body is not that of the cat (but more like a reptile). The face has a snout and deep set eyes. Finally it is two-legged. Though the lizard cat was not described, both lizards and cats have 4 legs.)

Quote

Standing beside the pit was a reptilian monstrosity, two-legged, the hanging arms oversized and overlong, talons scraping the pavestones. It was tailed, but that tail was stunted and thick. The broad-snouted jaws were crowded with interlocking rows of dagger-long fangs, above them flaring cheekbones and brow-ridges protecting deep-set eyes that glistened like wet stones on a strand. A serrated crest bisected the flat, elongated skull, pale yellow above the dun green hide. The beast reared half again as tall as the Toblakai.

This post has been edited by nacht: 13 September 2013 - 09:02 AM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Even the Crimson Guard said they were expecting wolves. But no, The Pack were Lizard Cats. Up until MT and even after, there is some mystery of how being D'ivers actually works. It is definitely a higher form of soletaken, and perhaps the very ancient ones, especially The Pack, are able to shift into a multitude of forms.

Some Iron Bars to The Errant before the fight with The Pack:

Quote

‘Pleased-to-meet-you-see-you-later,’

Some Iron Bars before the fight with the Seregahl:

Quote

‘You don’t have to do this—’
‘Yes I do. With that wolf pissing on me I feel the need to lose my temper. It’s another fight, isn’t it?’
Bugg nodded. ‘Might make the Pack seem like kittens, Iron Bars.’
‘Might? Will it or won’t it?’
‘All right, we might well lose this one.’
‘Fine,’ the Avowed snapped. ‘Let’s get it over with.’
The manservant sighed. ‘Follow me, then. It’s a dead Azath House we’re heading to.’
‘Dead? Hood take me, a garden fete.’
A garden fete? Dear me, I like this man. ‘And we’re inviting ourselves, Avowed. Still with me?’

Quote

‘We are the Seregahl,’ the lead Toblakai said. ‘Before you hurt us, you might have begged for mercy. You might have knelt in worship, and perhaps we would have accepted you. But not now.’
‘No,’ the Avowed agreed, ‘I suppose not.’
‘That is all you would say?’
He shrugged. ‘Nothing else comes to mind.’
‘You are frowning. Why?’
‘Well, I’ve already killed a god today,’ Iron Bars said. ‘If I’d known this was going to be a day for killing gods, I might have paced myself better.’

[Abyss]

 Haneybd87, on 13 September 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

So in Lether Iron Bars and company end up fighting a D'ivers that looks like a cat lizard. This to me sounds like a T'rolbarahl. I thought Dejim Nebrahl was unique, or was this not a T'rolbarahl?

The Pack was an oddity, especially given its links to the Jheck, who were soletaken wolves.

We learned back in DG that D'ivers can change their forms (Ryllandaras goes from Jackal to Desert Wolf), so it's possible that The Pack started out as one thing and became another, or that there's just a very interesting story behind the Jheck-Pack link.

 nacht, on 13 September 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

This would be a Bonehunters spoiler (albeit minor). Probably best to move it to that forum.

Done. No need for spoiler blocks now but keep the TB cut off in mind people.

Quote

The cat lizards are six in number

Quote

Iron Bars nodded. 'Weapons ready. We're wasting no time on this. How many in there, Corlo?' 'Six, their favourite number.'

We don't know where the six thing comes from, in fact i think that's the only ref to it and i vaguely think most of the d'ivers we've seen have been larger numbers.
That said, i assume IB had something in mind so it may go to the CGrd's specific experience with shapeshifters.

Quote

Dejim N'ebrahal is special being created from seven T'rohlbarahl

Quote

And so, seven T'rolbarahl had managed to elude their hunters for a time, sufficient to impart something of their souls to a mortal woman, widowed by the Trell Wars and without family, a woman whom none would notice, whose mind could be broken, whose body could be made into a feeding vessel, a M'ena Mahybe, for the seven-faced D'ivers T'rolbarahl child swiftly growing within her.

Going one further, the Trohlbarahls were the creation of Dessimbelackis. He essentially created a race of shadow aspected vampire shapeshifter lizard cat things. We don't know how many he created. Only that by the time of the above quote, there were only seven left.

The interesting thing there is the numbers game again... seven Hounds of Shadow, seven remaining Deragoth...

Quote

and is not described as a cat (The tail i was stunted and thick so the body is not that of the cat (but more like a reptile). The face has a snout and deep set eyes. Finally it is two-legged. Though the lizard cat was not described, both lizards and cats have 4 legs.)

Quote

Standing beside the pit was a reptilian monstrosity, two-legged, the hanging arms oversized and overlong, talons scraping the pavestones. It was tailed, but that tail was stunted and thick. The broad-snouted jaws were crowded with interlocking rows of dagger-long fangs, above them flaring cheekbones and brow-ridges protecting deep-set eyes that glistened like wet stones on a strand. A serrated crest bisected the flat, elongated skull, pale yellow above the dun green hide. The beast reared half again as tall as the Toblakai.

The autopsy later on with the brain wormtech pretty much confirms this was a Kchain, so i don't think there's a connection.

 Spoilsport Stonny, on 13 September 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

...
Some Iron Bars before the fight with the Seregahl:
...

You forgot this OT but priceless bit (paraphrased)...

Maybe i'll tire them to death.
"Why is it smiling?"

[D'rek]

 Abyss, on 13 September 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

Quote

Dejim N'ebrahal is special being created from seven T'rohlbarahl

Quote

And so, seven T'rolbarahl had managed to elude their hunters for a time, sufficient to impart something of their souls to a mortal woman, widowed by the Trell Wars and without family, a woman whom none would notice, whose mind could be broken, whose body could be made into a feeding vessel, a M'ena Mahybe, for the seven-faced D'ivers T'rolbarahl child swiftly growing within her.

Going one further, the Trohlbarahls were the creation of Dessimbelackis. He essentially created a race of shadow aspected vampire shapeshifter lizard cat things. We don't know how many he created. Only that by the time of the above quote, there were only seven left.

The interesting thing there is the numbers game again... seven Hounds of Shadow, seven remaining Deragoth...

They might not be the *last* seven T'rohlbarahls. Just that they were being hunted and 7 survivors (amongst 7 or more total current survivors at that time) created Dejim Nebrahl. Plus Dejim Nebrahl was capable of adding an 8th, and then a 9th, and so on...

[nacht]

 Abyss, on 13 September 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

and is not described as a cat (The tail i was stunted and thick so the body is not that of the cat (but more like a reptile). The face has a snout and deep set eyes. Finally it is two-legged. Though the lizard cat was not described, both lizards and cats have 4 legs.)

Quote

Standing beside the pit was a reptilian monstrosity, two-legged, the hanging arms oversized and overlong, talons scraping the pavestones. It was tailed, but that tail was stunted and thick. The broad-snouted jaws were crowded with interlocking rows of dagger-long fangs, above them flaring cheekbones and brow-ridges protecting deep-set eyes that glistened like wet stones on a strand. A serrated crest bisected the flat, elongated skull, pale yellow above the dun green hide. The beast reared half again as tall as the Toblakai.

The autopsy later on with the brain wormtech pretty much confirms this was a Kchain, so i don't think there's a connection.

Abyss is right (as usual). The one that Karsa killed was not a T'rohlbarahl


Dejim is described as thus (including being called feline) but now I am not sure why it would be considered as a lizard.

Quote

Demonic, mouth opened wide, needle-like fangs fully locked in their hinges, each as long as Mappo's thumb, glistening black eyes, the pupils vertical and the hue of fresh blood.

Quote

Reversing grip, she leapt to close on the apparition, and drove the knife down into the back of its scaled, feline neck.

[Abyss]

 nacht, on 13 September 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

... now I am not sure why it would be considered as a lizard.
...

'scaled' and the description of the mouth are reptilian.

It's entirely possible the lizard-cat descriptions of the Pack and Dejim are not coincidental. SE has given us seen such sideways links before tho i can't think of any examples without spoiling later books.

By way of utter conjecture, Dessimbelackis may have used the 'DNA' of a now extinct 7C critter in fashioning the trohlbaral... Dessi was of course Emperor of the First Empire, which fell apart due to the shapeshifter ritual... The Pack could have been a First Empire shapeshifter whose form was that same critter, who escaped the Tlan Imass slaughter via the gate to the Leth colony, fled to the waste and ended up becoming the Jheck's god.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

 Abyss, on 13 September 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

 nacht, on 13 September 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

... now I am not sure why it would be considered as a lizard.
...

'scaled' and the description of the mouth are reptilian.

It's entirely possible the lizard-cat descriptions of the Pack and Dejim are not coincidental. SE has given us seen such sideways links before tho i can't think of any examples without spoiling later books.

By way of utter conjecture, Dessimbelackis may have used the 'DNA' of a now extinct 7C critter in fashioning the trohlbaral... Dessi was of course Emperor of the First Empire, which fell apart due to the shapeshifter ritual... The Pack could have been a First Empire shapeshifter whose form was that same critter, who escaped the Tlan Imass slaughter via the gate to the Leth colony, fled to the waste and ended up becoming the Jheck's god.

Made even more plausible as Bonehunters immediately follows Midnight Tides. Like "Hey guys remember this from the last book? Here it is again, but I'm not going to just go and tell you that, and besides, I've made a few subtle changes to it anyway."

[Abyss]

Good point. Iirc there may have even been a random shapeshifter in DG at Tremolor who was something similar, tho i think it had wings.

[D'rek]

 Abyss, on 13 September 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

By way of utter conjecture, Dessimbelackis may have used the 'DNA' of a now extinct 7C critter in fashioning the trohlbaral... Dessi was of course Emperor of the First Empire, which fell apart due to the shapeshifter ritual... The Pack could have been a First Empire shapeshifter whose form was that same critter, who escaped the Tlan Imass slaughter via the gate to the Leth colony, fled to the waste and ended up becoming the Jheck's god.

IIRC, in MT they say that the Beast Ritual from the (Human) First Empire reached into the colonies like Lether, but in Lether's case they somehow forced either the effect of the ritual or the people affected by it into the northern ice wastes. So the Pack and T'rohlbaral could have even been created through the same process if that's when the T'rohlbarahl were made.

[Abyss]

 D, on 22 September 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

... the Pack and T'rohlbaral could have even been created through the same process if that's when the T'rohlbarahl were made.

The Pack could have been an early effort that didn't get the Shadow infusion or the vampiric elements. Tho there were seven Trohlbaral 'souls' that merged with one body, as opposed to d'ivers which is one soul in multiple bodies.

Still i think we can agree SE intended probably SOME connection at a base level. The similar form and First Empire roots are clear enough.

[D'rek]

 Abyss, on 23 September 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Still i think we can agree SE intended probably SOME connection at a base level. The similar form and First Empire roots are clear enough.

Agreed. Even if it was just

"Oh look, two random sketches of a d'ivers lizardcat from the First Empire I thought up and drew while excavating ruins in the Yucatan. That'd be perfect for my MT monster!"

*Puts a sketch in the MT notes folder*

*jumps in excitement*

*hits head on ceiling*

"Ow! Oh look, a random sketch of a d'ivers lizardcat from the First Empire I thought up and drew while excavating ruins in the Yucatan. That'd be perfect for my BH monster!"

[worry]

I've always considered them connected. One minor detail, maybe not as weighty as some other points made above, is that even if you believe Dejim was made up of the last few creatures left of the species, The Pack was stuck in an Azath for who knows how long, so it's not necessarily a contradiction there either.

I have no idea why the major Malazan resources on the web list the description of the Short-Tail Karsa fought as a T'rohlbaral, what's up with that?