[Duikers'Ghost]

I had been under the impression that the T'Lan Imass were quite large as compared to humans, but I just read the part where Karsa frees the 7 gods in the rock which are apparently T'Lan Imass, but he describes them as smaller than lowlanders but more broad...to me that sounds like a dwarf from the lord of the rings. Did I miss something? I haven't completely finished HoC, but I just started book 4 of 4.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Think more along the lines of Neanderthal compared to homo sapiens.

[HoosierDaddy]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 29 August 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Think more along the lines of Neanderthal compared to homo sapiens.

^This.

A tiny bit closer to the ground with a thicker frame. This is of course an "in general" thing, but T'lan Imass are very much so of normal height.

[Aptorian]

As Hoosier says the speculation, in anthropological terms, is a general thing, but:

Humans <- Imass <- Eres'al ... MODGOD NOTICE OF LATER BOOK SPOILERS REMOVED.

If you go digging through older forums you will find ancestral and race tree's that connect various races but as far as we know, humans are the ancestors or at least cousins of Imass, but they may both be children of a common ancestor.

What ever, Imass a small Neanderthals.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 29 August 2013 - 07:54 PM

[Duikers'Ghost]

I see...well I dont remember an exact quote or anything, but I could have sworn they were Karsa Orlongs size or larger. I think it was just because in GotM, Tool just gave me the feeling of a big badass dude. He was actually kind of scary in GotM. This is why i love the forum. Thanks guys!

[Kanese S's]

As far as I can recall, they've always been described as neanderthal-esque, or at least as just primitive humans. Tool just has a sort of larger than life persona.

[Rapscallion]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 29 August 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Think more along the lines of Neanderthal compared to homo sapiens.

This irks me a little. The T'lan Imass are almost universally well spoken and at times poetic.

It seems evolution in the Malazan series is strictly a matter of physical appearance.

[Aptorian]

Why wouldn't a neanderthal be well spoken? Neanderthal were no more primitive than we were in that age.

Given the right oppertunities it could have been the Neanderthal who'd conquered the globe instead of us. Another 10,000 years and they would have been building Neanderthal pyramids, developing letters, etc.

This post has been edited by Crustaceous Apt: 30 October 2013 - 03:34 PM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

More evidence that Neanderthals made jewelry and art

How Complex Was Neanderthal Speech?

These two articles address neanderthal cultural aspects.

Then there is this which suggests that perhaps Neanderthals interbred with homo sapiens so much that we still carry and exhibit vestigial traits.

My advice would be to not live life as if all the answers were known. And also that, yes, if an author decided that that was how he wanted his/her fantasy world to be, then he/she has every right to make it that way.

[Kaamos]

This was one of my favorite images when I looked for online reffs of Neanderthals for some Imass drawings. Once upon a time, artists used to render them not unlike grunty gorillas, but times chance...

This article has a fairly good skeleton comparison. The Neanderthal's a bit shorter, but more robust and far stronger.

This post has been edited by Kaamos: 30 October 2013 - 06:51 PM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Kaamos, on 30 October 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

This was one of my favorite images when I looked for online reffs of Neanderthals for some Imass drawings. Once upon a time, artists used to render them not unlike grunty gorillas, but times chance...

I'd like to see a lady version of that. You know...for science...

[Kaamos]

Aaand here was the site I was looking for, they're the same lot who designed Ötzi the Iceman's newest face. :-D The Neanderthals are more on the scruffy side compared to ponytail boy above, but I love the expressions these reconstructors give their subjects. :-D
Check out Wilma (older female), Feldhofer, and Spy from the left-hand index.

(Yeah and I'll likely draw Kilava one of these days...)

This post has been edited by Kaamos: 30 October 2013 - 07:17 PM

[Rapscallion]

Crustaceous Apt, on 30 October 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

Why wouldn't a neanderthal be well spoken? Neanderthal were no more primitive than we were in that age.

Given the right oppertunities it could have been the Neanderthal who'd conquered the globe instead of us. Another 10,000 years and they would have been building Neanderthal pyramids, developing letters, etc.

Hundreds of thousands of years work wonders for the brain. There's also the fact that the T'lan Imass did not reproduce after the ritual making that argument invalid.

I'm not saying they'd be primitive drooling retards, but they would definitely be a large step behind, intellectually.

Assuming, of course, that the Imass were not sufficiently ancient at the time of the ritual. In that case their resemblance with the Neanderthals we know would be coincidental.

[worry]

Haven't you seen that caveman documentary with that Raquel Welch lookalike?

[Spoilsport Stonny]

You are also confusing the voice of the author with the character's actual voice. Its a book, so you can't have these monosyllabic people walking around mumbling "Jaghut baaaad!!" all the time, so the author "speaks" through the character, especially via inner monologues.

Also, the Bonecasters are much more intelligent than your rank and file Imass. It is them that we hear from most of the time. The others that speak all have individual personalities that are reflected in their thoughts and dialogue.

Even still, there were other intelligent and erudite species around during the time of the Imass, so learning this and that from those species wouldn't have been too far of a reach.

Again. This ain't the real world. Suspend your disbelief.

[Aptorian]

Rapscallion, on 30 October 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Hundreds of thousands of years work wonders for the brain. There's also the fact that the T'lan Imass did not reproduce after the ritual making that argument invalid.

We're only in HoC so I'm not sure how much I can say but from the stories about Kilava it is strongly implied that she is the mother of Mankind or at least blood line that may have become humans. Remember she did refused the ritual and she was probably not the only one.

Rapscallion, on 30 October 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

I'm not saying they'd be primitive drooling retards, but they would definitely be a large step behind, intellectually.

Why?

From what I've read about Neanderthals they had as big a brain as ours, if not bigger. They existed along side us. We mated with them. What about them makes you think we are superior?

Rapscallion, on 30 October 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Assuming, of course, that the Imass were not sufficiently ancient at the time of the ritual. In that case their resemblance with the Neanderthals we know would be coincidental.

Again this is an early book forum so I wont put in too much detail but I doubt the Imass created their "First Empire" after their ritual. I also suspect that the Imass idea of Empire building is different from the human kind. They don't strike me as the kind to build cities and large structures.

[Kanese S's]

Rapscallion, on 30 October 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Crustaceous Apt, on 30 October 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

Why wouldn't a neanderthal be well spoken? Neanderthal were no more primitive than we were in that age.

Given the right oppertunities it could have been the Neanderthal who'd conquered the globe instead of us. Another 10,000 years and they would have been building Neanderthal pyramids, developing letters, etc.

Hundreds of thousands of years work wonders for the brain. There's also the fact that the T'lan Imass did not reproduce after the ritual making that argument invalid.

I'm not saying they'd be primitive drooling retards, but they would definitely be a large step behind, intellectually.

Assuming, of course, that the Imass were not sufficiently ancient at the time of the ritual. In that case their resemblance with the Neanderthals we know would be coincidental.

As I recall, the oldest known musical instrument is a flute made out of bones, and it was discovered associated with Neanderthal remains.

Your assumption that Neanderthals were any less intelligent than we are is odd, and doesn't fit with current knowledge of them.

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

Kanese S, on 11 November 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Rapscallion, on 30 October 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Crustaceous Apt, on 30 October 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

Why wouldn't a neanderthal be well spoken? Neanderthal were no more primitive than we were in that age.

Given the right oppertunities it could have been the Neanderthal who'd conquered the globe instead of us. Another 10,000 years and they would have been building Neanderthal pyramids, developing letters, etc.

Hundreds of thousands of years work wonders for the brain. There's also the fact that the T'lan Imass did not reproduce after the ritual making that argument invalid.

I'm not saying they'd be primitive drooling retards, but they would definitely be a large step behind, intellectually.

Assuming, of course, that the Imass were not sufficiently ancient at the time of the ritual. In that case their resemblance with the Neanderthals we know would be coincidental.

As I recall, the oldest known musical instrument is a flute made out of bones, and it was discovered associated with Neanderthal remains.

Your assumption that Neanderthals were any less intelligent than we are is odd, and doesn't fit with current knowledge of them.

This may be a post of ignorance on my part, not malicious ignorance mind, just ignorance of the kind where my general knowledge hasn't brushed this subject often.

But if the Neanderthals were killed off by Homo Sapians then there must have been a somewhat flawed aspect in their intelligence to allow themselves to be cast into the realms of history. Not saying they were not intelligent though, and given that their bodies were predisposed to being stronger, then surely we (Homo Sapian) should have been killed off if it came to fighting etc. These are just the thoughts I have swimming around to hopefully contribute positively to this discussion.

In my eyes the Imass are very much in a way less 'civilised' in so much as they are still very much hunter gatherers, and that way of living is sadly outdated and many times in the book a picture is painted of the Imass being hunted and killed by humans in the Series and that reeks of the Imass being too innocent and in a way less intelligent, in that they don't understand how to live and survive in the current world. Now that is not their fault, in my opinion the human race as it stands today is the worst thing ever to happen to the planet. We kill, destroy and devour much like a virus and our stain upon this fair planet my last until the planet is no more or until we have left this poor planet a broken husk and found another unsuspecting planet to destroy and devour..
Anyways, rant aside whoever said that Neanderthals have the same size brain and perhaps larger, the brain size matters not. yes brain size in proportion to the body can answer some fundamental intelligence theory but if a guy is 7ft and has an in proportion head (larger) than a dude that is 5ft again with an in proportion head (smaller) the taller dude is not smarter by default. I know this is super blunt as an example but meh. I just thought i would point out that I don't agree about the brain size idead thrown in there.
Again anybody with more knowledge than me please slap me and correct me, i will gladly learn, you guys all seem to very intelligent and i am happy to learn in this community of cool, awesome people!

This post has been edited by Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai: 11 November 2013 - 03:33 PM

[Kruppe's snacky cakes]

Bah! Neanderthals were just Cro-Magnons with fat heads. That's my theory. Anyway, they were plenty smart, as evidenced by this photograph of one thinking:



Case closed.

Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai, on 11 November 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

But if the Neanderthals were killed off by Homo Sapians then there must have been a somewhat flawed aspect in their intelligence to allow themselves to be cast into the realms of history.

Not necessarily: Neanderthal Intelligence As Cause Of Extinction Not True, Say Researchers

Neanderthals More Advanced Than Previously Thought: They Innovated, Adapted Like Modern Humans, Research Shows

Another theory, regarding language: Neanderthals Were Too Smart to Survive

Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai, on 11 November 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

Anyways, rant aside whoever said that Neanderthals have the same size brain and perhaps larger, the brain size matters not. yes brain size in proportion to the body can answer some fundamental intelligence theory but if a guy is 7ft and has an in proportion head (larger) than a dude that is 5ft again with an in proportion head (smaller) the taller dude is not smarter by default. I know this is super blunt as an example but meh. I just thought i would point out that I don't agree about the brain size idead thrown in there.

This has some support: Why Bigger Neanderthal Brains Didn't Make Them Smarter Us

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

love the thinking pic! hahaha