[Dadding]

Hi all - new here but just finished HoC, so I figured I'd just jump right in. I think I know the drill, I ask a bunch of questions, and you guys answer the majority of them with RAFO. Incoming wall of text:

The Seven Faces on a Leash
What's the deal with these guys? They're imprisoned in rock by what I assume must have been fellow T'lan Imass because -let's face it- who else could be such a big buzzkill? Because of that they can't travel very far so they recruit Karsa to do their dirty work. So then Karsa carves them into new rocks (Well - actually very old rocks) and they're all fine and dandy, but not really because Karsa has to go and find them weapons which also happen to make them manifest into real bodies. Also, somehow while imprisoned in the [first] rocks they become servants to the CG / HoC who happens to be chained up in a completely different world. If I've got all that correct, I guess my actual question is, how exactly did finding new weapons make them no-longer-imprisoned?

Also, the whole likeness-created-in-rock thing is played out again with the hounds in the Nascent with Trull and Onrack and talked about in a more primordial sense by the T'lan Imass. What I'm getting from that is that making likenesses of things creates them in the first place? Because initially things are just blobs of energy or something.

Shenanigans in Raraku
The night before the big battle, anyone with a modicum of power decided on killing everybody and their mother. I just wanted to make sure I had everybody's motives down pat. Korbolo Dom wanted everybody dead so he could swoop in and be the good guy and get back into Laseen's good graces because he had a mancrush on Whiskeyjack and wanted to be just like him except more violent. The Whirlwind Goddess / Sha'ik wanted the fragment of Thyrllan which would somehow happen to belong to them if the whirlwind goddess spilled enough blood or something? L'oric just wanted to stick around to see what would go down. Bidithal wanted the fragment for the CG, but it was mentioned that Sha'ik also needed him to stick around to help thwart the other plotters as well. I have no idea what Febryl wanted the warren for though. And Kamist Reloe was just helping Korbolo because he wanted the same things, or did he have some dastardly plan that I missed?

On that note, how exactly does one control this chunk of warren, isn't it usually through a throne or some jazz like that? How were Bidithal / Whirlwind Goddess planning on taking over the warren chunk?

Mrs. Onrack's Just Desserts
When the Whirlwind Goddess is finally put down, she's wrapped in chains, despite being assassinated by Korbolo's assassins who (to my knowledge) have nothing to do with the house of chains. What's up with that?

Heboric "imreallyconfusing" Light Touch
Heboric has been a pain to figure out from the beginning. He hates / loves Felisin at the same time because why not, feelings and stuff. He was once a priest of Fenner, but they chopped off his hands, but somehow that got tainted and the hands were not very nice to Mr. Fenner but Fenner still kind of liked Heboric anyway. Fenner shielded the hands so they wouldn't hurt him, but when Heboric touched the Jade Giant / Otataral stuff the hands became unshielded and literally pushed Fenner into the human realm? This also somehow gave Heboric a nice new shiny pair of ironman hands. But as he went farther away from the Otataral the hands were consuming him? The tea he drank also did something to the same effect? Which led to him having a vision of people in jade space ships and then boom Treach takes him on and everything is alright? Let me know if I'm missing anything.

Onrack and Trull talk Feelings
The last scene in the book, during the Epilogue, is with Onrack and co. Trull starts weeping because Onrack's jealous ex died? And then calls the ritual akin to surrendering - surrendering to what? And then Onrack talks about having patience and hoping it will pay off - what does he mean by that? I wish I had the book with me so I could give you the exact quote.

But the line where Trull says "And you call Onrack the broken one?" or something to that effect, was brilliant.

Cotillion and Cutter talk Feelings
Near the end of the book, after Apsalar leaves, Cotillion talks about symmetry between Cutter and Apsalar, what symmetry does he mean here? Then Cutter starts crying because Apsalar left and he loved her and he realized she left because she loved him, or is there something I missed here?

Night of the Living Dead
About all the ghosts that say cheese before the big battle- how many different groups do we have? There's the deceased from the Chain of Dogs, there because they followed the two dogs. There's the Bridgeburners because they're ascended now. And then there's everyone else who died in Raraku because Raraku realizes it's in danger and so protects itself?

Okay, that's about all I've got. Magnets, how do they work?

Thanks in advance for any / all answers, I realize I'm not the best question asker - really love the series, keeps you on your toes like no other.

This post has been edited by Dadding: 27 August 2013 - 01:31 PM

[Abyss]

Responses below... info limitted to HoC and earlier...

Dadding, on 27 August 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Hi all - new here but just finished HoC, so I figured I'd just jump right in. I think I know the drill, I ask a bunch of questions, and you guys answer the majority of them with RAFO.

You'll fit in well.

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Incoming wall of text:

The Seven Faces on a Leash
What's the deal with these guys? They're imprisoned in rock by what I assume must have been fellow T'lan Imass because -let's face it- who else could be such a big buzzkill? Because of that they can't travel very far so they recruit Karsa to do their dirty work. So then Karsa carves them into new rocks (Well - actually very old rocks) and they're all fine and dandy, but not really because Karsa has to go and find them weapons which also happen to make them manifest into real bodies. Also, somehow while imprisoned in the [first] rocks they become servants to the CG / HoC who happens to be chained up in a completely different world. If I've got all that correct, I guess my actual question is, how exactly did finding new weapons make them no-longer-imprisoned?

You did actually get all that correct. the metaphysics of it are a bit misty because the logistics of gods and worshippers are never clear cut. A key point is that they invested Karsa as their champion/mortal sword, so his actions specifically had an effect for them.

The weapons were their original ones, not new, and the investments in the weapons gave them enough power, along with Karsa's and the CG's actions, to let them reclaim their bodies.

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Also, the whole likeness-created-in-rock thing is played out again with the hounds in the Nascent with Trull and Onrack and talked about in a more primordial sense by the T'lan Imass. What I'm getting from that is that making likenesses of things creates them in the first place? Because initially things are just blobs of energy or something.

Worship = power. The specifics can vary, but the bottom line is creating an idol and giving it meaning can affect the being whose image was replicated.

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Shenanigans in Raraku
The night before the big battle, anyone with a modicum of power decided on killing everybody and their mother. I just wanted to make sure I had everybody's motives down pat. Korbolo Dom wanted everybody dead so he could swoop in and be the good guy and get back into Laseen's good graces because he had a mancrush on Whiskeyjack and wanted to be just like him except more violent.

More or less.

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The Whirlwind Goddess / Sha'ik wanted the fragment of Thyrllan which would somehow happen to belong to them if the whirlwind goddess spilled enough blood or something?

Raraku, once upon a time, was a fragment of Kurald Emurlahn (Elder Shadow. Thyrllan is Elder Light, btw). It had changed over time into the Holy Desert and its aspect is different as of DG.

The Whirlwind goddess took up residence and used it, but she didn't truly control it. which left her vulnerable to the CG and others trying to take it from her. And in the end Raraku itself 'rose up' because it had evolved and all the disruptions from the convergence triggered the sea rising.

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L'oric just wanted to stick around to see what would go down. Bidithal wanted the fragment for the CG, but it was mentioned that Sha'ik also needed him to stick around to help thwart the other plotters as well. I have no idea what Febryl wanted the warren for though. And Kamist Reloe was just helping Korbolo because he wanted the same things, or did he have some dastardly plan that I missed?

All correct. Febryl wanted to turn Raraku to his particular flavor of Darkness/Rashan.

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On that note, how exactly does one control this chunk of warren, isn't it usually through a throne or some jazz like that? How were Bidithal / Whirlwind Goddess planning on taking over the warren chunk?

The Goddess already controlled it, more or less. it got away from her when she was stabbed in the head. Bidithal and the Cg were trying to control Raraku thru the Goddess, hence all the chains that tried to grab her.

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Mrs. Onrack's Just Desserts
When the Whirlwind Goddess is finally put down, she's wrapped in chains, despite being assassinated by Korbolo's assassins who (to my knowledge) have nothing to do with the house of chains. What's up with that?

Bidithal and the CG made their play at the same time as Dom's assassins.

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Heboric "imreallyconfusing" Light Touch
Heboric has been a pain to figure out from the beginning. He hates / loves Felisin at the same time because why not, feelings and stuff. He was once a priest of Fenner, but they chopped off his hands, but somehow that got tainted and the hands were not very nice to Mr. Fenner but Fenner still kind of liked Heboric anyway. Fenner shielded the hands so they wouldn't hurt him, but when Heboric touched the Jade Giant / Otataral stuff the hands became unshielded and literally pushed Fenner into the human realm? This also somehow gave Heboric a nice new shiny pair of ironman hands. But as he went farther away from the Otataral the hands were consuming him? The tea he drank also did something to the same effect? Which led to him having a vision of people in jade space ships and then boom Treach takes him on and everything is alright? Let me know if I'm missing anything.

I think you got it. The otataral was already affecting Fener and WarPig was fighting it when Heboric was infected by the Jade as well. When Baudin touched Heboric's Jade hand to the heart tattoo Fener lost the fight and was pitched out of his warren.

The tea was supposed to let Heb draw on the power of the Jade to help Felisin/Shaik, but Trake stepped in before that happened and made Heboric's various powers settle down. It's not clear whether Shaik's plan would have worked, in any event.

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Onrack and Trull talk Feelings
The last scene in the book, during the Epilogue, is with Onrack and co. Trull starts weeping because Onrack's jealous ex died? And then calls the ritual akin to surrendering - surrendering to what? And then Onrack talks about having patience and hoping it will pay off - what does he mean by that? I wish I had the book with me so I could give you the exact quote.

But the line where Trull says "And you call Onrack the broken one?" or something to that effect, was brilliant.

yes, yes it was.
More on that in later books as you might guess from the epilogue.

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Cotillion and Cutter talk Feelings
Near the end of the book, after Apsalar leaves, Cotillion talks about symmetry between Cutter and Apsalar, what symmetry does he mean here? Then Cutter starts crying because Apsalar left and he loved her and he realized she left because she loved him, or is there something I missed here?

The symmetry lies in Cutter starting his journey by protecting Apsalar and continuing it by protecting Felisin Younger.

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Night of the Living Dead
About all the ghosts that say cheese before the big battle- how many different groups do we have? There's the deceased from the Chain of Dogs, there because they followed the two dogs. There's the Bridgeburners because they're ascended now. And then there's everyone else who died in Raraku because Raraku realizes it's in danger and so protects itself?

There's a big RAFO there, but the bottom line is that Raraku drew on its own ghosts to protect itself and other elements were drawn in.

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Okay, that's about all I've got. Magnets, how do they work?

Magic.

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Thanks in advance for any / all answers, I realize I'm not the best question asker - really love the series, keeps you on your toes like no other.

All good. Enjoy the ride... there's some truly awesome stuff ahead for you.

[Dadding]

You're the best - cleared everything* up!

*And by everything I mean not everything because I have a couple more questions that I hadn't fully formulated a couple hours ago.

The White Knights
At the end of the book, the Tiste Liosan were chasing after Gesler and co., until a cusser stopped them in their tracks. While recovering they say something to the effect of: Were those the guys who sailed a boat through our realm? To which they answered in the affirmative. Now this really throws a wrench in the precarious understanding I thought I had. I was under the impression that Gesler and co., Karsa and co., and Onrack and co. all visited the same realm, i.e. The Nascent, and that this realm was another chunk of Kurald Emurlahn. Wouldn't this mean that that warren belonged to the Tiste Edur and not the Tiste Liosan?

I was also under the impression that the group of Tiste Liosan were chasing Monok Ochem and co. because they killed their Osserc imposter not these Malazan soldiers. Is that incorrect?

One final question on the topic: Are the T'lan Imass who visit Gesler and co. aboard the Silanda Monok Ochem and co.?

Big Boy Claws
Kalam sneaks / fights through the entirety of the whirlwind army for the sole purpose of getting to Korbolo Dom. And then he proceeds to not even kill the toad-head and just hands him over to Pearl. And then everybody refers to it as 'Claw Business'. So is Kalam back to being a claw, or is he just doing Cotillion's bidding, just as Pearl is doing indirectly through Lostara? And this is the mission that Cotillion sent him out to do in the beginning?

But that doesn't make any sense because isn't Korbolo Dom in charge of the talons, who are Cotillion's pet assassins? Or are Korbolo's Talons an unsanctioned group of Talon?


And you thought you were rid of me, hah!

This post has been edited by Dadding: 27 August 2013 - 09:27 PM

[worry]

TWK: If you recall, an undead dragon then appeared and the ship followed in its wake through a Warren of fire, hence all the gold bodies. This is the realm the Liosan were referring to.

[Abyss]

Dadding, on 27 August 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

...
The White Knights
At the end of the book, the Tiste Liosan were chasing after Gesler and co., until a cusser stopped them in their tracks. While recovering they say something to the effect of: Were those the guys who sailed a boat through our realm? To which they answered in the affirmative. Now this really throws a wrench in the precarious understanding I thought I had. I was under the impression that Gesler and co., Karsa and co., and Onrack and co. all visited the same realm, i.e. The Nascent, and that this realm was another chunk of Kurald Emurlahn. Wouldn't this mean that that warren belonged to the Tiste Edur and not the Tiste Liosan?

Worry answered this.

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I was also under the impression that the group of Tiste Liosan were chasing Monok Ochem and co. because they killed their Osserc imposter not these Malazan soldiers. Is that incorrect?

Incorrect. They clashed with Monok and co back when Trull and Onrack opened the gate. Monok and co used that gate to kill the demon pretending to be Ossi, but by that point the Liosan had moved on in their hunt for Gesler and co.

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One final question on the topic: Are the T'lan Imass who visit Gesler and co. aboard the Silanda Monok Ochem and co.?

I don't remember.

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Big Boy Claws
Kalam sneaks / fights through the entirety of the whirlwind army for the sole purpose of getting to Korbolo Dom. And then he proceeds to not even kill the toad-head and just hands him over to Pearl. And then everybody refers to it as 'Claw Business'. So is Kalam back to being a claw, or is he just doing Cotillion's bidding, just as Pearl is doing indirectly through Lostara? And this is the mission that Cotillion sent him out to do in the beginning?

Kalam is acting on his own initiative as an agent of the Malazan Empire who happens to be a Claw.
This is a thinly disguised justification for his actions to make up for delivering the Book of the Whirlwind to Shaik and kickstarting the 7C rebellion.

Pearl and Lostara were sent by Tavore to find Felisin, but Pearl used the opportunity to act as Claw for the Malazan Empire, because that's what high ranking Claw do.

Cotillion sent Lostara to find out who was re-activating the Talon. Pearl didn't know that.

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But that doesn't make any sense because isn't Korbolo Dom in charge of the talons, who are Cotillion's pet assassins? Or are Korbolo's Talons an unsanctioned group of Talon?

Dom and Rel recruited their own group of Talon, including some of Dancer's former people, which is probably what tipped off Cotillion. Other than the name and some members, there is no connection to Dancer's Talon.

[worry]

IIRC the Imass on the Silanda are led by a female bonecaster called Hentos Ilm, so I don't think it's the same group.

[Abyss]

tho now that i think about it, weren't both groups encountered in the Nascent (Monok's and Ilm's) pursuing the Rock Faces?

[worry]

Yah, I'm pretty sure both groups do mention that they are after the "renegades" but for the life of me I can't remember where or when Monok's group does this, since they are all over the place taskwise. They don't seem like the brightest bulbs, esp. compared to Ilm's group. Hmm, is it why they attack Onrack in the first place? Or is that just because he is "the Broken"/clanless in general?

[Dadding]

IIRC Onrack was helping Monok and co. with their mission to hunt down the renegades until they got separated in the Nascent. The reason Monok and his buds attack Onrack is because he becomes too beat up because of the hounds and is shorn from the ritual. I guess Hentos could have been part of the same group and got separated just like Onrack.

But thank you guys so much for dropping all the knowledge bombs on me, I'll be sure to pick your brains again after Midnight Tides.

[NefaraisBredd]

I think we often.tend.to overlook minor distinctions that may be rather important. For example, the reason why the Teblor gods needed their weapons was not (in my opinion) related to gaining more power, but rather to break the ritual of failure that shorned them from the Ritual/community/Vow(ie:access to T'ellan.) Items that we use in life are left with an imprint of our 'spirit' or what has been called-psychic residue.

Kalam (and others, Torvald,etc) use the Claw to bully and bluff their way through things. Everyone always shits their pants when the Claw is mentioned. Kalam is on his own mission at the behest of Cotillion. Read on to discover why.

Korbolo Dom is the biggest douchebag in all of Wu. He may have started his own little alliance with some of the Talon but the man is an arrogant, over confident braggart who lived on the shadows of great men and women. See NoK where Temper encounters the blow-hard guard in the barracks-a perfect example of a posturing fool like Korbolo Dom. I actually hate him more than I hate Mallick Rell or .......Skinner!!!!

Creating a likeness or an idol of someone/beast/whatever is kind of like when a witch snares a spirit in a candle (samar dev). The likeness allows a manifestation of the god/spirit and creates a channel for the followers. The whole power balance issue is best explained in RG, so, sadly, heh, read on my friend!

[Duikers'Ghost]

Magnets work by "spin" or domains of spin a little more macroscopicly. Electrons, and other particles, have a degree of freedom which we call spin. you can picture it like a top spinning, although according to every measurement we have made thus far, electrons really are "point particles". If a bunch of electrons have their spins all pointing in the same direction, they are said to magnetized and similar poles will repel one another because it "costs" less energy to repel than it does to flip spin, and vice versa for attraction. That...in a few sentences is essentially how magnets work.