[Chain_of _Cats]

Hi, I'm new to the forum, and i wonder the difference between Soletaken and d'ivers?

[James Hutton]

A Soletaken morphs into one animal, while a D'ivers morphs into multiple animals (e.g. a pack of wolves, a pack of rats, etc.).

Welcome to the forum!

[korik]

And I love the name btw!

[Chain_of _Cats]

Thank you, can a soletaken morph into a human?

James Hutton, on 04 August 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

A Soletaken morphs into one animal, while a D'ivers morphs into multiple animals (e.g. a pack of wolves, a pack of rats, etc.).

Welcome to the forum!

[worry]

As of Deadhouse Gates, nobody knows.

[Dolmen 2.0]

MODGOD NOTICE OF LATER BOOKS SPOILERS REMOVED

Soletaken is an expression of raw power while D'ivers seems an expression of intellectual commitment and control.

Its not unlikely to have a beast veer into a human as an expression of intellect/deception but in almost all veering situations its a change by an intellectual entity to a physical form that increases combat potential. It'd be very strange to have a weak animal opt for a human form when there are tons of superior options to adopt.

To be able to veer, I think there must be a rite of sorts, an ascension looks the easiest most natural way. Perhaps the beast gods would be the ones to look at.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 06 August 2013 - 02:29 PM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

To be fair, Dolmen, none of this is really revealed in DG and shouldn't be part of this conversation. For now, all anyone need know about soletaken and d'ivers is that they are shapeshifters and they are scary as fuck and crazy and all on the Path of Hands trying to become a god.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 06 August 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

To be fair, Dolmen, none of this is really revealed in DG and shouldn't be part of this conversation. For now, all anyone need know about soletaken and d'ivers is that they are shapeshifters and they are scary as fuck and crazy and all on the Path of Hands trying to become a god.

Point. Noted and spoiler tagged accordingly.

MODGOD NOTICE OF NOPE, STONNY HAD IT RIGHT, SPOILERS REMOVED.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 06 August 2013 - 02:30 PM

[Abyss]

Chain_of _Cats, on 04 August 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

Hi, I'm new to the forum, and i wonder the difference between Soletaken and d'ivers?

James Hutton, on 04 August 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

A Soletaken morphs into one animal, while a D'ivers morphs into multiple animals (e.g. a pack of wolves, a pack of rats, etc.).

Welcome to the forum!

Soletaken are shapeshifters.
D'ivers are a higher level of shapeshifter that can veer into multiple forms.
Over time it seems some d'ivers can increase the number and type of form -
DG SPOILER DONT READ IF YOU HAVEN"T FINISHED THE BOOK

Spoiler

Icarium and Mapo encounter Ryllandaras and comment that he's got more bodies now, and has moved from jackal to desert wolf.

That said, d'ivers are not automatically more powerful than soletaken.
By example,
MORE DG SPOILERS

Spoiler

the bear Felisin and co encountered in the desert didn't hesitate before taking on Gryllen, and we're not even sure what Moby took on at the Whirlwind Wall to protect Crokus and co, but it was likely ugly.

Chain_of _Cats, on 05 August 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

Thank you, can a soletaken morph into a human?

worry, on 05 August 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

As of Deadhouse Gates, nobody knows.

Humans aren't the only shapeshifters.
The demon lord Rake fought in GotM wasn't human in either of his forms.
Neither was Rake or his lieutenants for that matter.

Also, in DG, YES MORE DG END SPOILERS

Spoiler

Moby isn't human in either of his forms

korik, on 05 August 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

And I love the name btw!

Seconded!

[D'rek]

I'd say that there's probably no reason someone couldn't have a human Soletaken form, but most Soletaken and d'ivers we've seen are already human to start and seem to learn to transform into something else that is more powerful. It'd be silly to transform from a human into... a different human.

Then there's demons and other sentient creatures that have become Soletaken. If you're a Tiste Andii or a Galayn Lord, would you rather be able to transform into a dragon, or into a human body that is weaker than your natural one?!

So probably possible, but pointless so nobody does it

[Dolmen 2.0]

Dolmen+, on 06 August 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

Spoilsport Stonny, on 06 August 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

To be fair, Dolmen, none of this is really revealed in DG and shouldn't be part of this conversation. For now, all anyone need know about soletaken and d'ivers is that they are shapeshifters and they are scary as fuck and crazy and all on the Path of Hands trying to become a god.

Point. Noted and spoiler tagged accordingly.

MODGOD NOTICE OF NOPE, STONNY HAD IT RIGHT, SPOILERS REMOVED.

Bah, my first modgodding, I feel so dirty.

Apologies in general, point still stands without the examples so yeah my Bad.

Strictly DG

@D'rek: well there are some merits to other Races turning into Humans, Shapeshifting into a human has its benefits. If you have an item of prey in mind that you are fond of eating why not turn into one of them, wait for the chance and attack them when they least expect it? the same would go for all Soletaken and D'ivers. They're dangerous mainly because you don't expect them to attack as they do. Bursting from a person who looks like they wouldn't hurt a fly seems standard operating procedure. Maybe a Galayn Lord would actually see being a human Soletaken as a plus in that regard?

In reply to Abyss' "DG SPOILER DONT READ IF YOU HAVEN"T FINISHED THE BOOK"

Spoiler

The fact that Ryllandaras leveled up to dessert wolf...does not mean he can't level down should it suit him. some places might be easier to navigate for a Jackal than for a dessert wolf. to extend that point I think its been speculated before that Moby is very possibly not the Bhokarala but the thing he turns into. My point is I think some of the more advanced Soletaken/D'ivers may have more than one option available, a human for Deceit and something bigger and toothier for when things get physical.

In short yeah, turning into a human is likely possible and actually quite favorable for things that aren't.

This post has been edited by Dolmen+: 07 August 2013 - 05:39 AM

[D'rek]

Dolmen+, on 07 August 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

Dolmen+, on 06 August 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

Spoilsport Stonny, on 06 August 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

To be fair, Dolmen, none of this is really revealed in DG and shouldn't be part of this conversation. For now, all anyone need know about soletaken and d'ivers is that they are shapeshifters and they are scary as fuck and crazy and all on the Path of Hands trying to become a god.

Point. Noted and spoiler tagged accordingly.

MODGOD NOTICE OF NOPE, STONNY HAD IT RIGHT, SPOILERS REMOVED.

Bah, my first modgodding, I feel so dirty.

Apologies in general, point still stands without the examples so yeah my Bad.

Strictly DG

@D'rek: well there are some merits to other Races turning into Humans, Shapeshifting into a human has its benefits. If you have an item of prey in mind that you are fond of eating why not turn into one of them, wait for the chance and attack them when they least expect it? the same would go for all Soletaken and D'ivers. They're dangerous mainly because you don't expect them to attack as they do. Bursting from a person who looks like they wouldn't hurt a fly seems standard operating procedure. Maybe a Galayn Lord would actually see being a human Soletaken as a plus in that regard?

In reply to Abyss' "DG SPOILER DONT READ IF YOU HAVEN"T FINISHED THE BOOK"

Spoiler

The fact that Ryllandaras leveled up to dessert wolf...does not mean he can't level down should it suit him. some places might be easier to navigate for a Jackal than for a dessert wolf. to extend that point I think its been speculated before that Moby is very possibly not the Bhokarala but the thing he turns into. My point is I think some of the more advanced Soletaken/D'ivers may have more than one option available, a human for Deceit and something bigger and toothier for when things get physical.

In short yeah, turning into a human is likely possible and actually quite favorable for things that aren't.

It's plausible, but I think most would still rather turn into a dragon.

re: Moby, he might be a bit of a special case, too, given that Baruk had a whole thing for putting demons into bhok'aral (it's in one of the chapter openers). That bhok'aral form might be more of a construct made by Baruk than a Soletaken shifting.

[Abyss]

Dolmen+, on 07 August 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

Quote

MODGOD NOTICE OF NOPE, STONNY HAD IT RIGHT, SPOILERS REMOVED.

Bah, my first modgodding, I feel so dirty.

AS YOU SHOULD.

Dolmen+, on 07 August 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

...In reply to Abyss' "DG SPOILER DONT READ IF YOU HAVEN"T FINISHED THE BOOK"

Spoiler

The fact that Ryllandaras leveled up to dessert wolf...does not mean he can't level down should it suit him. some places might be easier to navigate for a Jackal than for a dessert wolf. to extend that point I think its been speculated before that Moby is very possibly not the Bhokarala but the thing he turns into. My point is I think some of the more advanced Soletaken/D'ivers may have more than one option available, a human for Deceit and something bigger and toothier for when things get physical.

In short yeah, turning into a human is likely possible and actually quite favorable for things that aren't.

Sure in theory a shapeshifter might be able to 'level down', but up to DG we haven't seen it.

DG END BIG FINALE SPOILER discussion

Spoiler

It did seem like some of the d'ivers we saw at the end of DG had levelled up, likely by eating other shapeshifters... Gryllen wasn't just a pile of rats as he was in the desert, but a whole wave, the sea serpent had multiple bodies aside from the one Fid cussered... Ry might be a special case however. Icarium and Mappo discuss that he's changed animals as tho they hadn't seen that before.

D, on 07 August 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

re: Moby, he might be a bit of a special case, too, given that Baruk had a whole thing for putting demons into bhok'aral (it's in one of the chapter openers). That bhok'aral form might be more of a construct made by Baruk than a Soletaken shifting.

True, Baruk may have had something to do with Moby. A mage or ascendent might find it useful to have a seemingly harmless servant / pet who can turn into a massive demon.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Abyss, on 07 August 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

Dolmen+, on 07 August 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

Quote

MODGOD NOTICE OF NOPE, STONNY HAD IT RIGHT, SPOILERS REMOVED.

Bah, my first modgodding, I feel so dirty.

AS YOU SHOULD.

Dolmen+, on 07 August 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

...In reply to Abyss' "DG SPOILER DONT READ IF YOU HAVEN"T FINISHED THE BOOK"

Spoiler

The fact that Ryllandaras leveled up to dessert wolf...does not mean he can't level down should it suit him. some places might be easier to navigate for a Jackal than for a dessert wolf. to extend that point I think its been speculated before that Moby is very possibly not the Bhokarala but the thing he turns into. My point is I think some of the more advanced Soletaken/D'ivers may have more than one option available, a human for Deceit and something bigger and toothier for when things get physical.

In short yeah, turning into a human is likely possible and actually quite favorable for things that aren't.

Sure in theory a shapeshifter might be able to 'level down', but up to DG we haven't seen it.

DG END BIG FINALE SPOILER discussion

Spoiler

It did seem like some of the d'ivers we saw at the end of DG had levelled up, likely by eating other shapeshifters... Gryllen wasn't just a pile of rats as he was in the desert, but a whole wave, the sea serpent had multiple bodies aside from the one Fid cussered... Ry might be a special case however. Icarium and Mappo discuss that he's changed animals as tho they hadn't seen that before.

D, on 07 August 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

re: Moby, he might be a bit of a special case, too, given that Baruk had a whole thing for putting demons into bhok'aral (it's in one of the chapter openers). That bhok'aral form might be more of a construct made by Baruk than a Soletaken shifting.

True, Baruk may have had something to do with Moby. A mage or ascendent might find it useful to have a seemingly harmless servant / pet who can turn into a massive demon.

GAAAAH


DG END BIG FINALE SPOILER discussion

Spoiler

So much of this thread should be discussed in the general books forum.

I'm getting fuzzy on definitions. I struggle to think of one case of a soletaken entity that is self eminent. When is it not originated by a rite or some sort of magic? Baruk may very well be producing
Soletaken of his own brand but surely they are still Soletaken by that definition right? When is it ordinary magical tinkering shapeshifting and when is it special case Soletaken/d'ivers ShapeShifting?

[Abyss]

Dolmen+, on 07 August 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

...GAAAAH

Heh... it's killing you, i know.

Why don't you start a general forum thread if you want to dig into the things i know are lurking in your thinkymeatz?

Dolmen+, on 07 August 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

DG END BIG FINALE SPOILER discussion

Spoiler

I'm getting fuzzy on definitions. I struggle to think of one case of a soletaken entity that is self eminent. When is it not originated by a rite or some sort of magic? Baruk may very well be producing
Soletaken of his own brand but surely they are still Soletaken by that definition right? When is it ordinary magical tinkering shapeshifting and when is it special case Soletaken/d'ivers ShapeShifting?

My take is that all soletaken and d'ivers are 'shapeshifters', regardless of how they got there. The distinction is only in whether a 'sole' form is taken, or 'diverse' forms.
BUT... iirc in at least one glossary, GotM i think, possibly DG, 'd'ivers' is ref'd as 'a higher order of soletaken' and elsewhere as 'a higher order of shapeshifting', just to mess with you.