[Brujah]

As we've seen, both Laseen and Vorcan both kick much ass.

Choose the victor of this pairing and state why you feel such.

[Brujah]

Vorcan Radok: member of the T'orrud Cabal, mistress of the Darujhistan assassin's guild

"The ease with which she'd dispelled his power made it clear that she was his master in sorcery." -thoughts of Baruk - GotM, US HC, p.477


Also, it was Vorcan's daughter Taya that kills Laseen, albeit was a sneak attack.

I give the advantage to Laseen, although it's a far closer pairing, in my opinion, than many might believe.

[koehkont]

Surly can take out an avowed with her hands and I believe she might be one of the best in hand to hand combat.
Also she was claw leader and the claws seem to have a nastier reputation than the Darujhistan Assassins guild

This post has been edited by koehkont: 17 July 2013 - 07:08 PM

[Abyss]

Taya killed Laseen.
Vorcan imprisoned Taya.

Advantage Vorcan.


...and then Wolverine takes her out, naturally.

[worry]

Have we ever gotten "demon" vs. otataral information btw?

[Dolmen 2.0]

worry, on 17 July 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

Have we ever gotten "demon" vs. otataral information btw?

I don't think so

Heres my hypothesis: Karsa did fight a ship full of Tiste edur "demons" who are closely linked with a warren, Kurald Emurlahn (not unlike most demons in the malazan world). Effectively the same rules should apply. I'd think the summoning of a demon into Wu would be affected, The control the mage has over the demon would also be affected. The warren it accesses would be affected, but not the actual demon itself. (unless of course it has an aspected physical form i.e. the water beasts of the Storm riders.)

So Vorcan who is a warren afficianado would lose alot of her workability but physically would still be a badass.

[Abyss]

Dolmen+, on 18 July 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

worry, on 17 July 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

Have we ever gotten "demon" vs. otataral information btw?

I don't think so

Heres my hypothesis: Karsa did fight a ship full of Tiste edur "demons" who are closely linked with a warren, Kurald Emurlahn (not unlike most demons in the malazan world). Effectively the same rules should apply. I'd think the summoning of a demon into Wu would be affected, The control the mage has over the demon would also be affected. The warren it accesses would be affected, but not the actual demon itself. (unless of course it has an aspected physical form i.e. the water beasts of the Storm riders.)

So Vorcan who is a warren afficianado would lose alot of her workability but physically would still be a badass.

Tho to be fair, the Letherii Edur Karsa faught were linked with a 'stolen' chunk of Kurald Galain via the enslaved Andii souls, not true KE and not even a whole chunk of the Elder Warren. More in the nature of Meanas or Rashan.

If we're talking knife and fist to foot and crossbow, no warrens because Laseen otatarals Vorcan before she can unveil anything, than i still go with Vorcan based on her demonic nature being stronger/faster than Laseen's Deadhouse enhancements. Yes, Laseen could take Avowed, but they, like her, are enhanced humans, not demons.

...and then Wolverine takes them both dancing and wins.

[Kanese S's]

I vote Laseen. Sure, Taya took Laseen out, but I doubt the result would have been the same in a straight up battle between them. After all, Vorcan, who beat Taya, got taken out with a brick to the back of the head by someone who I think most would agree, would not ordinarily be able to beat her. In specific circumstances, in this series, characters occasionally get the drop on opponents that they'd normally be unable to defeat. Taya's assassination of Laseen came at a specific moment, that was implied to be the best opportunity she'd get, casting some doubt on whether she'd be able to win in other circumstances.

Laseen is leader of the Claw, one of two organizations that was known for handily dispatching every enemy assassins' organization (bar the Veils), before taking down their internal rivals. While the Darujhistan Assassins' Guild is good, they don't have near the reputation for being nasty and terrifying that the Claw do.

Also, I wouldn't discount Laseen being able to take out fully armored Crimson Guard Avowed with her hands and feet just because the latter are humans, not demons. Crimson Guard, especially Avowed, are damn tough. Able to take on Seguleh while in terrible condition and win tough. And Laseen seems to kick their asses without much visible difficulty.

I'm voting Laseen on this one, obviously.

[Dolmen 2.0]

I'm still undecided. Vorcan has had better screen time performances I think. Laseen needed an entourage to handle what I effectively sum up as a fouled up Dancer protecting Kellanved. Would Vorcan have managed better? something tells me yes. she has experience for starters and thats a telling factor in hand to hand.

[Kanese S's]

Yeah, but Dancer is Dancer. I don't think Vorcan would have fared any better in that fight, partly because she's a mage. Laseen is not, and uses Otataral accordingly. If Vorcan had been in that position, she wouldn't have brought in a shit ton of Otataral, and consequently would have been splattered against the wall by Kellanved, a very powerful mage, or dead on Dancer's daggers (or his rope) if she managed to dodge the sorcery. She doesn't seem any more likely to plan for contingencies than Laseen, perhaps less so, as she got taken out in a much derpier manner.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the comment about experience. I'm not sure how old Vorcan is, but thanks to Deadhouse residency and various alchemies, Laseen has experienced about a century or something, much of that time spent being a deadly assassin, while retaining the strength of youth.

I just always got the impression that Darujhistan's assassins guild was quite good for local talent, but wasn't really much of a match for the Claw.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Kanese S, on 19 July 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

Yeah, but Dancer is Dancer. I don't think Vorcan would have fared any better in that fight, partly because she's a mage. Laseen is not, and uses Otataral accordingly. If Vorcan had been in that position, she wouldn't have brought in a shit ton of Otataral, and consequently would have been splattered against the wall by Kellanved, a very powerful mage, or dead on Dancer's daggers (or his rope) if she managed to dodge the sorcery. She doesn't seem any more likely to plan for contingencies than Laseen, perhaps less so, as she got taken out in a much derpier manner.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the comment about experience. I'm not sure how old Vorcan is, but thanks to Deadhouse residency and various alchemies, Laseen has experienced about a century or something, much of that time spent being a deadly assassin, while retaining the strength of youth.

I just always got the impression that Darujhistan's assassins guild was quite good for local talent, but wasn't really much of a match for the Claw.

Ooh I missed this reply, sorry. Vorcan is old. as a demon she lives far longer than most humans, and theres the mage thing which also lends longevity to her already abnormal age. Can't say I have reference to her exact age but there is mention that she has been around as long as the Cabal has been around and the Cabal has been around since the Seguleh were active in Darujhistan. Thats a long time. She doesn't seem to have leveled up much despite her age which is alarming. perhaps she's just not interested in ascending or taking up a permanent position in the DoD? regardless I still have OST to read so maybe theres a gap in the knowledge there.

[Kanese S's]

Or she's just kind of a homebody and so doesn't venture out of Darujhistan much, at least not on business. That could explain her not doing much leveling up.

Given how "leveling up" is usually done, there just might not have been enough suitable opponents in her home city for her to ever be really that hard-pressed. How much leveling up would you do in a game if you never ventured out of the starting area? How much more skilled would you grow at anything if you never left your comfort zone?

Then again, maybe she is fully aware of the fact that she could have attained higher, but didn't want to make herself too much of a target.

My comment about Laseen having a lot of experience wasn't to say that Vorcan is any sort of fresh-faced newbie in comparison, just that I don't think Laseen's at a disadvantage where that's concerned.

[the broken]

worry, on 17 July 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

Have we ever gotten "demon" vs. otataral information btw?

Yes. Return of the Crimson Guard, CG mages send demons (creatures of magic) into Laseens otataral coated tent. They melt. Ergo, Laseen takes this one.

[Abyss]

the broken, on 03 September 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

worry, on 17 July 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

Have we ever gotten "demon" vs. otataral information btw?

Yes. Return of the Crimson Guard, CG mages send demons (creatures of magic) into Laseens otataral coated tent. They melt. Ergo, Laseen takes this one.

Those were summoned demons, not 'native' ones like Vorcan who exist in Malazanland of their own accord.

I agree that the otataral will likely nullify Vorcan's warrens, but then we're back to enhanced human vs demon and per upthread, i think that's advantage Vorcan.


...and then Wolverine cooks them both dinner and they settle down to watch THE NOTEBOOK, thus Wolverine wins again.

[Brujah]

Abyss, on 03 September 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

the broken, on 03 September 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

worry, on 17 July 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

Have we ever gotten "demon" vs. otataral information btw?

Yes. Return of the Crimson Guard, CG mages send demons (creatures of magic) into Laseens otataral coated tent. They melt. Ergo, Laseen takes this one.

Those were summoned demons, not 'native' ones like Vorcan who exist in Malazanland of their own accord.

I agree that the otataral will likely nullify Vorcan's warrens, but then we're back to enhanced human vs demon and per upthread, i think that's advantage Vorcan.


...and then Wolverine cooks them both dinner and they settle down to watch THE NOTEBOOK, thus Wolverine wins again.

.....then Iron Man descends on Wolverine's punk ass. With one upper-cut, Iron Man removes Wolverine's head from his body, killing him dead, dead, dead. Wolverine is NEVER seen in this forum ever again.

[the broken]

Actually, I've just remembered (OST Spoiler)

Spoiler

we see Vorcan herself interact with otataral in OST, when she chains herself up. It burns. So its effects aren't just nullifying warrens, but to actually burn at a touch. I still say Laseen. Her primary weapon is something Vorcan is especially vulnerable to, even more than normal mages.

[Brujah]

Spoiler warnings aren't needed in Polls sub-forum. Everything is fair game.

[Kanese S's]

So, for Vorcan, Otataral hurts. A lot. I'm still thinking Laseen would have a slight edge.

[NefaraisBredd]

What are the rules? No magic? Straight hand-to-hand? Who says Lasseen is tougher than Kalam, Topper, Dancer, Taya, and other Assassins? Lasseen won against Dancer and Kellanved because the wanted her to win. Dancer would have carved her up like a thanksgiving turkey. Kellanved woulda supplied the cranberry sauce, the bitter old bugger that he is. Kinda funny how Lasseen is the only one of the 'old crew' (pre-Malazan empire)that hasn't ascended (or damn near). Topper is downright scary when.he is hunting in the imperial warren. Sure, she killed a CG but iron bars or blues would have slain her no prob. Vorcan would catch lasseens attacks, crush her fist/foot with ease, then proceed to shove her head up her ass. Lasseen is obviously Napan word for 'failure'.

[Esa1996]

Since when has Vorcan been a demon? OST? I've read it but apparently this somehow skipped my mind