[theocean]

What is the deal with hood?? He is back right?? Wouldnt that mean Daseem can continue his badass journey to get even with him?

[James Hutton]

 theocean, on 19 June 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

What is the deal with hood?? He is back right?? Wouldnt that mean Daseem can continue his badass journey to get even with him?

Theoretically he can. But I think he doesn't know Hood's back.

His name's Dassem by the way

This post has been edited by James Hutton: 19 June 2013 - 08:11 PM

[Abyss]

Hood isn't 'Hood' any longer after TtH. He 'died' and then gave up the aspect of death, tho we saw in TCG that human mages like Deadsmell who had access Hood's Warren now had access to some element of Omtose Phellack, so there may be a remaining link.

Point being the God Hood is now a merely extremely powerful Jaghut. Technically the god Dassem was seeking revenge on is gone.

That may affect how interested Das may be in pursuing his revenge.

[Defiance]

I'm not sure about that, Abyss. I don't think Dassem hated Hood for being the god of death; he hated him for what he did to his daughter. Even though Hood has changed/lost his aspect, that doesn't absolve his actions. He's not a fundamentally different person now from when he was the god of death.

HOWEVER, I don't think Dassem is interested in pursuing revenge at this point. I believe that, after killing Rake, he was forced to confront the futility of his single-minded hatred.

[tiam]

Indeed Hoods personality might have been influenced by his aspect as with Bugg or the Errant but it was still Hood. I think Dassem has put that part of himself behind him but im surprised given the amount of screen time hes gotten recently we have heard little mention of his daughter or her location.

[Abyss]

 Defiance, on 19 June 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

I'm not sure about that, Abyss. I don't think Dassem hated Hood for being the god of death; he hated him for what he did to his daughter. Even though Hood has changed/lost his aspect, that doesn't absolve his actions. He's not a fundamentally different person now from when he was the god of death.
...

That's the issue right there.

We know from D'rek in TB, Bugg in MT and elsewhere that worshippers can influence gods to do things they do not want to do. We know from TtH that Hood's aspect caused death just from him walking down the street and he had no control over it.

So it is entirely possible that Das' daughter died because Hood's aspect forced him to do something he would not have done back when he was King Jagcicle.

It's also entirely possible that's bullpoop and Hood is responsible for whatever happened regardless.

But as it stands now we don't really know because...

 Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 21 June 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

... we have heard little mention of his daughter or her location.

I wonder about this bit of background. What little we know suggests a bunch of ascendents and gods gathered for a chaining, Lady Envy was supposed to be there but didn't show, DasDaughter became involved and ended up dead, covered in tiny cuts, and not-decomposing as a carpet in an Azath House.

This caused Das to split from Hood, but continue to be First Sword of the Malazan Empire up until Laseen tries to off him as seen in NoK.

He then goes 'travelling', hunting for a way to get at Hood, and at some point picks up the aspect of Dessembrae, Lord of Tragedy.

The 'tragedy' seems to be the loss of his daughter and his fall from fame as First Sword, tho there's likely more to it.


But at root, perhaps as far as Das is concerned, 'Hood', not Lord Frostyparts, killed his daughter (tho as an aside it seems to me that the CG or Lady ENvy might have been equal or better targets), and having given up the aspect, the Jaghut Formerly Known As Hood is no longer the same person.

[tiam]

Is she described as dead in DG? I thought she was in stasis like Rallick or Kalam? Shes described as having criss cross wounds on her legs I think (though its been a while since a DG reread) but thats it.

[worry]

As far as I recall, the people who actually see her in DG have no clue if she's dead or not or even who she is, but in other scenes Dassem's peers seem to think she's dead. I wouldn't exactly be surprised if she was actually in stasis, but as far as things stand w/ our current info on her, I take it she's dead and Dassem in grief put her body there because he couldn't stand to do anything else, couldn't let her go. An emotionally unhealthy gesture.

[tiam]

Im sure Fiddler recognises her doesnt he or does Gothos simply mention it in passing? His grief could easily be Dassem as a mortal man meddled/was involved with gods and ascendents and as a result of his presence his daughter was injured/killed/imprisoned.

[worry]

You could be right. My memory is that we had to infer who she was from context clues, but I could be misremembering.

[blackzoid]

 Abyss, on 21 June 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

This caused Das to split from Hood, but continue to be First Sword of the Malazan Empire up until Laseen tries to off him as seen in NoK.
He then goes 'travelling', hunting for a way to get at Hood, and at some point picks up the aspect of Dessembrae, Lord of Tragedy.
The 'tragedy' seems to be the loss of his daughter and his fall from fame as First Sword, tho there's likely more to it.

That was the case until we find out in the TCG that the Logros T'Lan Imass threw a spanner in the works and somehow caused Dassem to pick up the "Tragedy/Dessembrae" aspect. Personally I don't understand the T'lan Imass connection myself, it seemed to be a for way for SE to tie more directly Dassem and Tool as First Swords, but then Tool thinks that since Dassem counld not get Hood he will go after Logros next. And that the T'lan Imass actions in the creation of Dessembrae, Hood liked. Which I just have no clue how that makes any sense for either of the 3 motivations (Dassem, Hood, Logros)

Here it is, a giant wall of text that basically blows up the entire previously understood background:


The last Jaghut in the Odhan had been hunted down, butchered. The time had come to return to the Malazan Empire, to the Emperor who had seated himself on the First Throne. And Onos T’oolan knew he would soon return to the side of Dassem Ultor, his mortal shadow who had taken for himself – and for his closest followers – the title of First Sword. Prophetic inspiration, for they would soon all be dead – as dead as Onos T’oolan, as dead as the T’lan Imass. Or if not dead, then … destroyed.

Instead, Logros had lifted one hand, a splay of gnarled fingers all pointing at Onos. ‘You were once our First Sword,’ he said. ‘When we return to the mortal empire, we shall avow service to Dassem Ultor, for he is your heir to the title. You shall surrender the name of First Sword.’
Onos T’oolan considered that for a time. Surrender the title? Cut through the bindings? Sever the knots? Know freedom once more? ‘He is mortal, Logros. He does not know what he has done in taking for himself the title of First Sword.’
‘In service,’ Logros replied, ‘the T’lan Imass sanctify him—’
‘You would make of him a god?’
‘We are warriors. Our blessing shall—’
‘Damn him for eternity!’
‘Onos T’oolan, you are of no use to us.’
‘Do you imagine’ – and he recalled the timbre of his voice, the seething outrage, and the horror of what Logros sought to do … to a mortal man, to a man destined to face his own death, and that is something we have never done, no, we ever ran from that moment of reckoning – Logros, the Lord of Death shall strike at the T’lan Imass, through him. Hood shall make him pay. For our crime, for our defiance – ‘Do you imagine,’ he’d said, ‘that your blessing could be anything but a curse? You would make him a god of sorrow, and failure, a god with a face doomed to weep, to twist in anguish—’
‘Onos T’oolan, we cast you out.’
‘I shall speak to Dassem Ultor—’
‘You do not understand. It is too late.’
Too late.
The Adjunct Lorn had believed that it was the murder of the Emperor that had broken the human empire’s alliance with Logros T’lan Imass. She had been wrong. The spilled blood you should have heeded was Dassem Ultor’s, not Kellanved’s. And for all that neither man truly died, but only one bore the deadly kiss of Hood in all the days that followed. Only one stood before Hood himself, and learned of the terrible thing Logros had done to him.
They said Hood was his patron god. They said he had avowed service to the Lord of Death. They said that Hood then betrayed him. They understood nothing. Dassem and his daughter, they were Hood’s knives, striking at us. What is it, to be the weapon of a god?
Where are you now, Logros? Do you feel me, so fiercely reborn? My heir – your chosen child – has rejected the role. His footfalls now mark the passing of tragedy. You have made him the God of Tears, and now that Hood is gone he must hunt down the next one who made him what he was. Do you tremble, Logros? Dassem is coming for you. He is coming for you.

Course we all know that this out of date as regards OST...
EDIT and thats not a spoiler because OST takes place before the end of TCG.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 25 June 2013 - 10:17 PM

[Vaddon Ra]

Right with that big quote from TCG It made me think...

A bit, I almost have it, clutching, almost grasping what I think SE is trying to tell us.
Hood didn't betray Dassem in the conventional sense, not like "Hi I've Killed your daughter to punish you" etc, The Imass had bound godhood to Dassem and as we've seen frequently the worshippers can influence the aspect of their god and so make them do awful things, feel awful things... right?

So Dassem is now bound to be the first sword of the empire, but also the first sword heir of the Imass.... Now this alone isn't great as the position is cursed right? But it's worse because Dassem is also bound to Hood. Hood's aspect both willingly taken, and also forced due to the weight of his godly burden, is death. He is Death! The Imass have defied death, they have caused genocide to the Jaghut (which Hood will of course be aware of right lol) and so have offended deeply, both of Hood's reason for being. So by binding themselves to Dassem Hood now has a way to strike at the Imass but this won't really work as they're deathless, and so Dassem begins to be steeped in tragedy and used and used and used.... We don't know what happened to Dassem's daughter, although we know from this quote that she was also used by Hood to strike to the heart of the Imass through their binding with her father... perhaps she was on a mission for Hood and got hurt? Perhaps Hood refused to heal her (he is death after all) and So Dassem refuted his bond to Hood (not that Hood seems to care, as people seem to think) However.... why Is Dassem so furious with Hood? The Daughter thing sure.... or perhaps it's the constant death in his wake and he blames Hood for it, for using his family.... Perhaps he is mistaken as he realises at the end of TTH that his singular need for vengeance is a double edged sword and he is then ironically used by Anomander, to kill Anomander who has Hood in his sword, to ,......

....

Oh dear losing it...

Right ok ok ok

Ok!!!!

So he's driven... driven to kill Hood, to (in his mind) end his tragedy by killing Death and believing this will set his daughter free....

Ironically and tragically

SPOILERS FOR FOD






This is also what Hood is going to do at the end of Forge... to find his wife.

It doesn't work, he kills the wrong man, and tragedy keeps him firmly held. He is used again and again....

The real sad thing is, he's deceived and the belief throughout is wrong. It was his binding himself to Logros right, The Imass and the greatest tragic and futile thing in the Malazan world. He's their mortal sword, and ... ok Good lord I'm literally still confused....

Anyway Imass = tragic.... their binding to Dassem = Dassem is tragic
His binding to Hood = lots of death and using occurs
He tries to kill Hood, why? for vengeance = doesn't work cos his aspect is Tragic.... bonded to the 300,000 year old Imass nation.... hmmmmmmm

So basically he's used a lot, it was all futile and it was him leaving the Empire that screwed the Empire's use of the Imass???

Right

Bed Time Dammit!!!

[Dayspring]

And Hood took his daughter. Boom.









So Dassem's daughter thing happened at the last Chaining. Because Envy wasn't present, they lacked some juice, and Hood, being supremely miffed that his follower is being worshipped as pretty much an Ascendant by a bunch of zombies that Hood can't touch, decided to draw upon Dassem and his daughter to complete the Chaining. Now either Dassem's daughter was a badass sorceress in her own right, or he drew upon Dassem but Dassem was too far down the path of Ascendancy to be fully pulped by Hood and following the twisted familial bonds took his daughter...who stumbled as she was walking down a beach of seashells and cut up her legs.

[melonhead]

Thread from the dead!

This post has been edited by melonhead: 28 March 2015 - 04:33 AM

[Vaddon Ra]

 Defiance, on 19 June 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

I'm not sure about that, Abyss. I don't think Dassem hated Hood for being the god of death; he hated him for what he did to his daughter. Even though Hood has changed/lost his aspect, that doesn't absolve his actions. He's not a fundamentally different person now from when he was the god of death.

HOWEVER, I don't think Dassem is interested in pursuing revenge at this point. I believe that, after killing Rake, he was forced to confront the futility of his single-minded hatred.

But we don't have any real factual evidence of what Hood supposedly did, Hood "taking" Dassem's daughter could just mean that she died tragically, Dassem (being the god of tears at that time without knowing what Logross had done to him) would have lashed out at the aspect of Death (much Like Hood in FOD) and essentially gone on a crusade against Death itself... I.E. Hood.
And just as Rake stole Dassem's revenge on Death, so too can we assume that Hood's quest against Death in the past was met with equal failure and hopelessness. Hood says to Spax in TCG that true fear comes when you stand on the wrong side of death and then ask "what next"
Perhaps just as Hood had warred against Death, so is Dassem destined to do the same and tragically fail. Hood may not have personally killed Dassem's daughter but just that she died tragically is enough to make Dassem break his vow to Hood/Death

or whatever

[Gorefest]

Well, she's not actually dead though. She is sleeping an an Azath House. It's just that Dassem isn't aware of this.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 28 March 2015 - 12:57 PM

[Andorion]

 Gorefest, on 28 March 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

Well, she's not actually dead though. She is sleeping an an Azath House. It's just that Dassem isn't aware of this.

In which case we would have Icarium version 2, only this time he is even better with a sword

[Dayspring]

I extrapolated that scenario. But from all we hear about Dassem, he is not the type of person to hold that kind of grudge against Hood if he did not have a hand in it, and Hood has been known to indulge in pettiness. Now, not saying that Hood struck her down, but from Spite and Logross's words it points to Hood having more than a passive role in her death. And it's still unclear whether dassem's daughter is dead and preserved in the Azath or held in stasis