[Path-Shaper]

Okaros, on 11 July 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

That maks sense. I had thought you were actually a loyalist, but the defense mechanism makes more sense. I'd tell the thread so the rebels can trust each other completely without doubt

[Fener]

Not to get in the way of a good argument or anything, but my PM said

Path-Shaper, on 20 June 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

Queen's Advisor: If you are recruited by the Vord, anytime you are on the same tile as the Vord Queen, a lover conversation will be opened with her. It will be closed if you and the Vord Queen are no longer on the same tile.

The post I think was the mod-kill was

Fener, on 10 July 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

Korbas, on 10 July 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

So you had a lover conversation with the Queen? Or you will have?

IF I get recruited, AND am on the same tile as the Queen I will have a lover convo with her. I have not had one yet, because I've not been recruited by her, and potentially not been on the same tile as her.

There are some other possibilities, for the post but I think less likely;

Fener, on 10 July 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

Ultama, on 10 July 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Fener, am I correct in that I understand you to be saying that you were rebel, you were recruited by the queen, and now Gait has you collared?

Gait, does that collar act as a full recruit? i.e. what happens when you die?

No, I am rebel, I have not been recruited. Were I recruited and on the same tile I'd have a lover convo with her. The only action to hit me all game⁽¹⁾ has been a heal.



⁽¹⁾Apart from when someone made a mistake that they quickly rectified />/>

And

Fener, on 09 July 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

Pran Chole, on 09 July 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

I know you claimed to have a lover and unless you're going to reveal Vord the only two it coulda been is Tellan and Nim. If you're a rebel it means the immortals don't hurt any rebels, which is cool. It also means Galain and Okaros are loyalists. I was sure I remembered you saying or at least strongly hinting at being loyalist at one point. Doesn't matter to me at this point, I don't think you're Vord.

Do find that post. Please.

Oh, wait, that was my final bit of revealing that I deleted when I thought I was lynched.

I do have a lover, it is the VORD QUEEN. But, do you know what, there's a fucking huge qualifier on that. For her to be my lover, I must have been RECRUITED TO THE VORD and I have to be ON THE SAME TILE AS THE QUEEN. If you read a post from me saying I had a lover, you'd know that too, right?

So having looked into it a bit (but only because of you two) I actually find that I didn't quote very close to word for word from my PM, 11/26 words matched and that is including if, on and the x 2 So, given that 6 and 7 matching words didn't get me modkilled, can I assume to not use more than 7 of the exact words used in a PM when constructing a sentence on thread? I can see someone writing me an excruciating PM for the next game, featuring every definite article, conjunction and pronoun under the sun


Just sayin'


(runs for the hills....)

[Nimander Golit]

Vengeance, on 11 July 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Nimander Golit, on 11 July 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

I'm going to go ahead and say that I think your handling of the reveals and modkill situation could have been much better. You can say "it's in the regular forum mafia rules" all you want, but the facts are that {a} you didn't bother to post those rules at the start of the game, or any other rules about what was allowed for reveals, {b} it is very rare to consider revealing your player name as being "quoting your role PM" - in many, many games there are no restrictions on revealing and so using your player name is not at all forbidden, regardless of how you interpret rule B7 in the strictest sense, and {c} the B11 rule didUn't used to exist... in fact I was surprised to even see that when I looked for a recent posting of the rules in another game thread, because it definitely did not used to exist before at some point.

Now yes, there were some vague comments from the mods in plain text about revealing earlier in the thread, but let's be fair we all know lots of players skim the thread or forget things. So that'd be very easy to miss.

And so the end result is that you're punishing players for doing something that would be allowed in 90% of other mafia games, and that the only mention of it being not allowed is some vague mod comments buried on page 46 out of 75.

I don't think reveals necessarily should or should not be allowed, but it's the kind of thing that if you're this strongly opposed to it, why not just add a few sentences to the OP of the game expressing that and making it simple for everyone to know that the line is different in this game than most other games?

Gee thanks for going over shit we did. Wow your a pal aren't you. Mrs ban people from Sh for the same thing.... Fener was the only for cause mod kill and that was for word for word pm reveal. I don't really think that when it comes to mod kills and the handling of them you have a none hipocriticale leg to stand on. Plus since when do mafia players pay any more attention to the rules on the front page then they do any thing else the mod posted...

I think I do have a leg, actually, but if you're referring to a specific incident please elaborate further as I'm not sure what you're referring to.

My "going over your shit", in your words, isn't meant to be an accusation, just commentary on the game and how it was run, like we do in just about every game that is played.

[Path-Shaper]

Liosan, on 10 July 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

Ho hum. move to Calderon. I shall continue bravely running away from the shit storm.

Noted

V

[Path-Shaper]

Liosan, on 11 July 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

I had a dream where Alkend CFd Rebel. I doubt I should share that with the thread, so I'm telling you guys.

[Path-Shaper]

Nimander Golit, on 11 July 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

I think I do have a leg, actually, but if you're referring to a specific incident please elaborate further as I'm not sure what you're referring to.

My "going over your shit", in your words, isn't meant to be an accusation, just commentary on the game and how it was run, like we do in just about every game that is played.

Your modkilling and then subsequent banning from SH of GH during the 100 for posting part of his role pm.

V

[Path-Shaper]

Fener, on 11 July 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

Not to get in the way of a good argument or anything, but my PM said

Path-Shaper, on 20 June 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

Queen's Advisor: If you are recruited by the Vord, anytime you are on the same tile as the Vord Queen, a lover conversation will be opened with her. It will be closed if you and the Vord Queen are no longer on the same tile.

The post I think was the mod-kill was

Fener, on 10 July 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

Korbas, on 10 July 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

So you had a lover conversation with the Queen? Or you will have?

IF I get recruited, AND am on the same tile as the Queen I will have a lover convo with her. I have not had one yet, because I've not been recruited by her, and potentially not been on the same tile as her.

There are some other possibilities, for the post but I think less likely;

Fener, on 10 July 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

Ultama, on 10 July 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Fener, am I correct in that I understand you to be saying that you were rebel, you were recruited by the queen, and now Gait has you collared?

Gait, does that collar act as a full recruit? i.e. what happens when you die?

No, I am rebel, I have not been recruited. Were I recruited and on the same tile I'd have a lover convo with her. The only action to hit me all game⁽¹⁾ has been a heal.



⁽¹⁾Apart from when someone made a mistake that they quickly rectified />/>/>

And

Fener, on 09 July 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

Pran Chole, on 09 July 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

I know you claimed to have a lover and unless you're going to reveal Vord the only two it coulda been is Tellan and Nim. If you're a rebel it means the immortals don't hurt any rebels, which is cool. It also means Galain and Okaros are loyalists. I was sure I remembered you saying or at least strongly hinting at being loyalist at one point. Doesn't matter to me at this point, I don't think you're Vord.

Do find that post. Please.

Oh, wait, that was my final bit of revealing that I deleted when I thought I was lynched.

I do have a lover, it is the VORD QUEEN. But, do you know what, there's a fucking huge qualifier on that. For her to be my lover, I must have been RECRUITED TO THE VORD and I have to be ON THE SAME TILE AS THE QUEEN. If you read a post from me saying I had a lover, you'd know that too, right?

So having looked into it a bit (but only because of you two) I actually find that I didn't quote very close to word for word from my PM, 11/26 words matched and that is including if, on and the x 2 /> So, given that 6 and 7 matching words didn't get me modkilled, can I assume to not use more than 7 of the exact words used in a PM when constructing a sentence on thread? I can see someone writing me an excruciating PM for the next game, featuring every definite article, conjunction and pronoun under the sun


Just sayin' />


(runs for the hills....)

It was the top one. The first one you managed to delete before we saw although another player did see it and ask if he could use it. We would have mod killed your for the first one too but it was edited before. We did tell the other player that they could use what they saw because you had put it out there and then edited it off the thread.

V

[Path-Shaper]

Fener, on 11 July 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

Not to get in the way of a good argument or anything, but my PM said

Path-Shaper, on 20 June 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

Queen's Advisor: If you are recruited by the Vord, anytime you are on the same tile as the Vord Queen, a lover conversation will be opened with her. It will be closed if you and the Vord Queen are no longer on the same tile.

The post I think was the mod-kill was

Fener, on 10 July 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

Korbas, on 10 July 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

So you had a lover conversation with the Queen? Or you will have?

IF I get recruited, AND am on the same tile as the Queen I will have a lover convo with her. I have not had one yet, because I've not been recruited by her, and potentially not been on the same tile as her.

Though you are right that it is not an exact, word for word quoting, we felt it was close enough to warrant a mod-kill, specially after giving an on thread warning about quoting stuff too closely.

[Fener]

Path-Shaper, on 11 July 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

It was the top one. The first one you managed to delete before we saw although another player did see it and ask if he could use it. We would have mod killed your for the first one too but it was edited before. We did tell the other player that they could use what they saw because you had put it out there and then edited it off the thread.

V

I thought it was likely that one. Any tips on re-phrasing stuff like that in future? The deleted post wasn't anywhere close to the actual wording I don't think, was typing it all out on the fly hence why I was running so late with posting my stuff pre-(non)lynch. I did see the hammer and left it up for maybe 30sec after I posted it - I figured at the time I'd bend what I thought were the rules a little bit and leave it up as long as I could just to get that bit more info out for everyone else. I was going to leave my faction out though, how many people could have thought Invidia was on their team - everyone pretty much apart from the First.

[Fener]

As an aside, how do you all figure out the mechanics and balance for these games? I haven't seen any discussions on stuff like that for games that are put out, does it all take place off the forum or do you get another mod, put it to them run through it and pick holes etc?

[Path-Shaper]

Nimander Golit, on 11 July 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

I'm going to go ahead and say that I think your handling of the reveals and modkill situation could have been much better. You can say "it's in the regular forum mafia rules" all you want, but the facts are that {a} you didn't bother to post those rules at the start of the game, or any other rules about what was allowed for reveals, {b} it is very rare to consider revealing your player name as being "quoting your role PM" - in many, many games there are no restrictions on revealing and so using your player name is not at all forbidden, regardless of how you interpret rule B7 in the strictest sense, and {c} the B11 rule didn't used to exist... in fact I was surprised to even see that when I looked for a recent posting of the rules in another game thread, because it definitely did not used to exist before at some point.

Now yes, there were some vague comments from the mods in plain text about revealing earlier in the thread, but let's be fair we all know lots of players skim the thread or forget things. So that'd be very easy to miss.

And so the end result is that you're punishing players for doing something that would be allowed in 90% of other mafia games, and that the only mention of it being not allowed is some vague mod comments buried on page 46 out of 75.

I don't think reveals necessarily should or should not be allowed, but it's the kind of thing that if you're this strongly opposed to it, why not just add a few sentences to the OP of the game expressing that and making it simple for everyone to know that the line is different in this game than most other games?

I agree with you that people saying their name on thread was not really a mod-killable offense. That's why I was very adamant with Venge about not mod-killing those who had revealed their role names. The only person we DID mod-kill is Fener, and that was for quoting a section of their role PM what we felt was too close to verbatim.

That being said, when a mod makes a note on thread, whether it's on page 46 of 75 or page 1 of 75, I feel that it should be taken seriously. We had warned people that they were skirting too close to quoting their role PMs, and they kept doing it. It was necessary to do something about it, and then I set some very clear rules about what would not be accepted going forward. I threw in the not saying your exact role name as I felt, and Venge very much agreed, that they were damaging the game.

I don't generally have a problem with reveals, but it was seriously hurting the game when everyone was just basically laying out exactly what they were doing at all times. There were points where people were telling others on thread about a Secret Message they had just sent, before Venge or I even had a chance to send it. That sort of defeats the purpose of having a Secret Message ability. Furthermore, the crazy reveal-fest was making it impossible for the Vord Queen to hide, and I felt it was making it an unfair game for Khell, so I added a small non-reveal clause in my list of mod-killable offenses.

I will take responsibility for not posting the game rules at the beginning of the game, but, aside from a very few of the players in this game, people on this board have been playing Mafia long enough to know the rules. I know I certainly don't take the time to read the rules when they're at the beginning of a thread, just to make sure there's nothing different. If people were really unsure, they could have just as easily gone to another thread and looked them up, just as you did.

I appreciate your insight, and will certainly take it into account in future games. I think the next game or two I run will have a no reveals clause. Frankly, I've never seen a game with so much revealing taking place. I mean, it blows my mind that the Rebels basically all revealed, and are still in a better position than the Loyalists - even given the fact that the Loyalists had some seriously bad luck with timeout mod-kills.

[Path-Shaper]

Fener, on 11 July 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

As an aside, how do you all figure out the mechanics and balance for these games? I haven't seen any discussions on stuff like that for games that are put out, does it all take place off the forum or do you get another mod, put it to them run through it and pick holes etc?

For mine and Venge's games, I usually put together the original concept via PM with Venge, then he and I hammer out the details, talk about why one team may be stronger than another, fix little things, and whatnot. We do it all over PM long before a game is run. Pretty much all the games that we run (Korra, Timelords, Alera) are conceptualized by me then fleshed out by both of us.

[Path-Shaper]

Fener, on 11 July 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

As an aside, how do you all figure out the mechanics and balance for these games? I haven't seen any discussions on stuff like that for games that are put out, does it all take place off the forum or do you get another mod, put it to them run through it and pick holes etc?

Balancing of games usually takes place off forums. I say usually because there are a couple of special forums where certain people put there games to flush them out. A lot of holes are picked and a lot of hashing back and forth. The more complicated the game usually the longer it takes to find the big things that can break it. Even then there can be one little thing and the game is completely done.

Every one who builds games has had at least one spectacular blow up in the balancing. Usually people try to get with someone who has modded other games to help them figure out the balancing. This is especially true in regards to first timers.

V

[Path-Shaper]

Fener, on 11 July 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 11 July 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

It was the top one. The first one you managed to delete before we saw although another player did see it and ask if he could use it. We would have mod killed your for the first one too but it was edited before. We did tell the other player that they could use what they saw because you had put it out there and then edited it off the thread.

V

I thought it was likely that one. Any tips on re-phrasing stuff like that in future? The deleted post wasn't anywhere close to the actual wording I don't think, was typing it all out on the fly hence why I was running so late with posting my stuff pre-(non)lynch. I did see the hammer and left it up for maybe 30sec after I posted it - I figured at the time I'd bend what I thought were the rules a little bit and leave it up as long as I could just to get that bit more info out for everyone else. I was going to leave my faction out though, how many people could have thought Invidia was on their team - everyone pretty much apart from the First.

Personally I would never say that I have a mechanic in my role where if I switch teams I can then talk to another team leader. That is usually something that will end with you getting lynched.

Revealing is tricking you can't use the wording that is in your PM but you want people to believe your reveal. If you reveal to much and then do switch teams. People might suspect and then lynch you which would not benefit your new team. My tip would be to check with a mod before you did any kind of reveal because different mods as is obvious have different views on what can be revealed or not.

V

[Path-Shaper]

Galain, on 11 July 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

haha, you didn't trust me ? I'm hurt

Galain, on 11 July 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

this will reveal our location if I tell

Okaros, on 11 July 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

Its cool, we're moving anyway. Haha, sorry, but its mafua. Trust no one />

Galain, on 11 July 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

it won't matter when the next report of how many of each faction are on every location, we'll always be the odd couple

[Path-Shaper]

Hood, on 10 July 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

Provisionals: Wood Furies passive: attack Tiamatha, if dead Rashan, if dead Alkend.

Hood, on 11 July 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

Move to Ceres

noted

V

[Path-Shaper]

Okaros, on 11 July 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

Should we vote alkend?

Galain, on 11 July 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

well, I'm up for it - but is everyone waiting for time to pass for discussion instead of pushing to end of day (possible)

Okaros, on 11 July 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Im up for it too. Will any more discussion happen? I think wait an hr or so till a lull than vote

Galain, on 11 July 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

eh, hard to say

[Path-Shaper]

Liosan, on 11 July 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

Use fire active. Burn Okaros some more

noted

V

[Path-Shaper]

Okaros, on 11 July 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

We should vote Alkend. We equal the Loyalists and FA together in strength, the vord want the FA done first, and so we should be safe. What do you think?

Galain, on 11 July 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

That's true - somebody better be slick with the NAs if we are going to win

So you want to go ahead? I thought we were waiting for PC?

Okaros, on 11 July 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

I think going ahead wouldnt be too bad, but I think we dhould wait for PC

[Monok Ochem]

Zzzzzzzzz. They're making this one boring ass game, now. It was fun to watch until lately. Now it's just 30 hours of not much being said, and time being wasted for no reason.

I could understand it if they said they wanted to use as much time as possible each day, to get as much info as possible. But that's not really what they're doing, IMO.

I'm pulling for Khell, although Ment getting lucky and winning would be cool. As long as Pran Chole don't win. That guy is fucking annoying. He's one of the old players returning? I didn't really look. Peanut Butter, some name that started with an I, and it isn't messemb.