[Korlat]

Alright, I've been trawling through Tholen's posts first. Below are the things which stuck out for me, and pointers as to Tholen's interactions with others. In general, there were a couple of things for me which could be interpreted as especially dodgy, and that's the hammer on Skintick and some defence of Galayn. I'll say more about that below, but here I'll say that from this I do not get a killer vibe. Symp, however, is a possibility.


Ok, first off this post below, which does a couple of interesting things. First, dismisses signalling. Normally, I would very much be inclined to agree with Tholen, but in a case such as this game where the only intermediary between the killers is the symp, I see it being far more of a possibility. I would say it's practically the symp's primary duty to somehow get their masters to realise who each other are. But this dismissal of signalling could read like, 'don't even bother looking for it, anyone else.' And then a couple of paragraphs later, having dismissed it, Tholen states that he too feels there is something fishy about the interaction in question. It's not signalling, but it's *something* - quite what that something could be is pretty vague.

There is then bolded part about Galayn. I'll have to look back and see what GL said up to this point to make him seem that way to Tholen.

Finally, the first of many attacks on Shadow, something of a recurring pattern for Tholen until recently.

Tholen, on 04 June 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

OK, caught up and here are my thoughts. (to those who didn't like my modkill avoidance post...fuck off. I have time to play this game, I just didn't have it until now. It does town no good to have me lynched so I wanted to make sure I got on and avoided the modkill. You're welcome)

Signaling cases are shit. I don't agree with them, and think they are usually a smokescreen case for scum. How often does signalling actually work? How often does the person being signaled even know what to look for. Think on your Mafia career. How many times has it worked or someone being caught in a signal case actually been scum? I just don't think they have any merit and I think the people that use them are either using them as a screen or just can't think of anything better to write.

The Shadow/Desra thing seems over the top and contrived. Shadow going on about unnecessary posting benefiting scum...wtf is that. Someone posted a D-day scenario on thread, and Shadow says thats a worthless post that really contributes nothing...seriously? It seems like according to you, only posts that definitely point out scum should be allowed. That ain't happening. The way we find scum is to post, post a lot, point fingers, be abrasive, get info that others might not have thought of on the thread. I know you are a super genius and all but some people like to have things like D-day scenarios on thread for reference, or because they haven't thought of them. Trying to limit the flow of information on thread IS scummy. That is what you are trying to do.

regarding Desra, I actually think his case/observation had some merit...It doesn't add up that one vet, let alone two, haven't finished the series... but as for it being signalling.. well, I don't think so. But something doesn't seem right there.

There were a ton of people that popped on have like 3-4 posts and bailed.It's a bit early but based on last game, these people need to step up and start posting more. (I know, rich coming from my third post and first of substance...I'll be around much more from here on). We seem to have a posting problem and hopefully it can get fixed. I don't mind low posting, as long as the posts are content filled and constructive. Gaylord stuck out as good in this regard.

I think Atrahal's case on Silchas didn't have much behind it. But it is day 1 and you need to take stabs in the dark. What interests me is the reply that Silchas gave. See Below.

Silchas Ruin, on 04 June 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Atrahal, on 04 June 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

For now I am going to



Vote Silchas Ruin



The only content he provided was the joke vote and a few one liners in response to me. Since then he hasn't done anything to engage in conversation. I am not sure where I place Desra and Shadow at the moment. One of them could be a symp muddying the waters. I want to focus on the people that don't want to stand out and coast along.

The only conversations going on to engage in when I was around yesterday was either meta to the threat of modkill and the pissing match between Desra and Shadow which I found ridiculous but had nothing to share that wouldn't be parroting someone else. And now I had 15 minutes to check the thread before I leave for my day, which resulted in no more insight than the fact that you have a massive rage boner that you're directing my way today.. Anyhow, that's my thoughts.

His reaction seems pretty wild and defensive for receiving one vote. A "massive rage boner" does not one post make. Based on this over reaction I am going to


vote Silchas Ruin


I would also be willing to vote Shadow for trying to control information flow on the thread, or any of the low posters that isn't me. I will be around until lynch.

Pushing for the lynch on Silchas? Personally, I don't think it can particularly be construed that way (mostly because I agree with him about having a train to analyse).

Tholen, on 04 June 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

While I agree with Desra that a no-lynch isn't the end of the world... we'll just be in the same boat tomorrow with no actual train to analyze, but who knows. Maybe the killers will take each other out .

That self-vote to self vote removal is...interesting. You state you are worried about WIFOM...and then you go and create it. Iirc there was a scum who wouldn't self vote last game, then self voted the next day and removed. Just sayin.

This has been brought up already I think, about Galayn coming up with similar phrasing.

Tholen, on 04 June 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

wow...it looks like we have incompetent killers

Soon afterward, Tholen has this bolded part below to say about Galayn's activity on the lynch train.

Tholen, on 05 June 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

Here and caught up.
2 comments on this quote string:

Hood, on 05 June 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

Desra, on 05 June 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

Hood, on 05 June 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

of course you would say that

Were you offended that no one liked your idea of letting day time out and there was a last chance pile on of votes? That seemed somehow significant to me

No not really. I still think that it was the smart thing to do any time you have the potential for more town loss then a normal day things should be looked at. But hey since there were no n/k's then town actually came out ahead.

Math for those who are retarded

Lynch + 2 kills = 3 town deaths.

Yesterday

mod kill + lynch = 2 town deaths


So town came out ahead.

well, I was alright with no lynch to be honest, the train on SR was composed of nothingness

I actually wanted a comment on the pile-on. It seemed to come from nowhere and I can't decide if it was good 'ol "must lynch for town sake" or scum thinking about not missing an easy lynch

1. I hate it when people assume that the Lynch will be town. We had no way of knowing Silchas would be town. It's easy to use hindsight and "woohoo" we came out ahead, but if we always did that we'd no vote to D-day without a lynch. we HAVE to lynch. Thats our power. The only time you assume a lynch is town is when you do a WCS and that's not what Desra was doing. If we didn't get that lynch yesterday, we'd have fuck-all to talk about today other than the fact that Silchas got out of a lynch and how last game the scum did the same thing. Instead, we have a lynch and look how much discussion it's garnered. That's a productive town lynch. It's why we do that.

2. I got the same feeling as HP. I think it was a little bit of both. Contrary to what ...(can't remember who) someone said, I think the gaylord vote is the least suspicious. It's clear he didn't want to lynch Silchas as evidenced by his post about a self voter from last game. Also, the fact that he got the lynch in with 33 seconds to spare doesn't have the look of someone who is paying close attention to the thread and is waiting to hammer. I actually am more suspicious of the Skintick, Shadow, Hanas votes. At that point they came on in quick succession when it was clear who was going to be lynched. In my experience thats the time when scum usually hop on, when the target has basically been chosen, and their momentum will help push a lynch through to completion. Of the three skintick is the most suspicious to me because as someone pointed out, he has provided fuck-all for content...but just happened to be able to get on and vote. That stinks in my eyes.

[Korlat]

And then once more:

Tholen, on 05 June 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

Hood, on 05 June 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

@ Tholen - so you don't think when Shadow said GL was lurking, then he pops up (as quoted previously by others) to vote that he was lurking, it was merely coincidence?

I can't help but think scum is right in that group


also, I agree about Kara's post

I don't know if he was lurking or not and I'm not gonna sit here and defend him. My main point was that I found the votes by Skintick, Shadow and Hanas to be MORE scummy than a deadline hammer. As far as I'm concerned that hammer helped town move on and didn't send us to a wasted day of discussing if we should lynch Silchas.

However, Tholen later does this below. He is anything but hesitant to vote for Galayn once Tiamatha reveals, and indeed several times tells others that there's no point in waiting for Galayn to return before lynching them. There is also another dig at Shadow here:

Tholen, on 06 June 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

Well I am an idiot...I totally didn't believe Skintick and thought he was just trying to save himself. Wish I would have had more time last night to analyze but I had to go to sleep as I work this morning.

I am definitely down testing the reveal. It has to be done and if Tiam is lying we get a scum..if he is telling the truth, we more than likely get a scum. Good odds there.

vote gaylord

Tholen, on 06 June 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Shadow, on 06 June 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Desra, on 06 June 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Shadow, on 06 June 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

That's L-2 with something like 29 hours left.

Are you advocating holding off?

I'm advocating not lynching him before we get everyone's input on it.

Other than that, I'm all for testing by lynching GL.

Just there's no need to do it as a speed lynch right at the start of day 3.

What kind of input do you want? We have a reveal, a solid reveal. If GL is scum he's gonna come on thread and spew a bunch of shit that will muck up the thread. If GL is innocent, we have scum in Tiam and we lynch him. The only input you are going to get is I agreement with Tiam or not.

I don't understand using the time just for the sake of using time. The more you post, the scummier you seem. If GL comes back as scum you will be my prime symp candidate.

Tholen, on 06 June 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

I can't shake the feeling Shadow is stalling so that his killer can make it back to thread in case he didn't get his kill order in on short notice.

A little attack on Karatallid here, this time in indirect agreement with Shadow. I'm trying to demonstrate what paths Tholen's interactions took.

Tholen, on 05 June 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Karatallid, on 05 June 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

Shadow, on 05 June 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

Karatallid, on 05 June 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

5 - Scum love lists, so I must be scum. Let's watch how many people use this as a be all end all reason to vote me out. I put it at 50/50 odds this post gets me voted out.

I don't like this sort of pre-emptive, half jokey worry.

Colour me shocked. Only not.

You set yourself up though for this exact scenario Kara. A built in escape hatch. If someone called you out, you can do exactly what you just did. If you know people are suspicious of lists, or think that has merit... why form your post in the form of a list? I, personally, think the scum = list thing is retarded, but the way you set this up...you have only yourself to blame.

But then back to an attack on Shadow. It is also again a dismissal of possible signalling. Though in this instance I would have to agree with him and say Shadow was taking it too far.

Tholen, on 05 June 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

Shadow, on 05 June 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

Hanas, on 05 June 2013 - 01:32 AM, said:

Shadow, on 05 June 2013 - 01:08 AM, said:

Hanas, on 04 June 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

Shadow, on 04 June 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

Hanas, on 04 June 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

13 players. 2 killers. 1 guard. 1 healer.
No NKs
Very good guessing. 1 or both killers abstaining. Or mod shenanigans.
Day 2 looks to be fun. Where's the popcorn?

Yeah, really unsure what to make of it.

It's possible they kill on alternate nights for example. It has been the case before anyway, not sure how likely it is.

Co-ordinated withhold? Or just both independently deciding to, it's a feasible strategy.

Really unsure.

Would you care to speculate on how the coordination took place? Just when I was thinking you might not be scum.

Via signal presumably. Would be worth checking back to see if there is anything that didn't look suspect at the time that could suggest something like that. Dunno, just throwing possibilities out there really and it's one of them. Dunno what's scummy about it tbh?

I'm hesitant to jump on the possibility of roled players being successful, because it's a risky thing to put weight on for town, and there are other possibilities.

I try very hard to not make assumptions in mafia. I believe paranoia is a virtue. I once spent an entire English period arguing with the professor that there is a clear difference in meaning between "to boldly go" and "to go boldly". But even I have trouble seeing any ambiguous language in

Path-Shaper, on 03 June 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

The set-up consist of 2 independent killers and a symp. The killers don't know each other.
Town has a guard and a healer.
Day is 36 hours. Night is instant, so make sure to provide provisionals.

that would allow room for killers coordinate.

I'm not suggesting some sort of hidden communication mechanic, as you point out, the OP is pretty clear.

I meant that it is possible that they managed to co-ordinate on thread via subtle signalling. Unlikely, but possible.

You are ridiculous. There was no fricking coordination going on. To even bring it up is dumb. (see I can dictate what a good meaningful post is too!!!). The amount of things that could have happened is many. Healer healed, guard guarded, killers both killed the same person that was healed, there is only one kill per night and that person chose shin, or any combination of these which would all be more likely than the killers having a secret communication on thread without anyone catching it and deciding that both would withhold. C'mon man.

[Korlat]

Continued suspicion of Shadow...

Tholen, on 06 June 2013 - 05:22 AM, said:

I have 1.5 hrs... I am still ok with a skintick vote as he fits my profile for a late trainer yesterday. But it seems like people are just jumping on... still have my doubts about shadow. He's scrambling.

Hehe, I had to read this post twice because the first time I couldn't figure out what 'NA' stood for. First I thought, 'Night Action', why is Tholen talking about night actions? Dare I suggest possible signalling in one of Tholen the anti-signaller's posts?

Tholen, on 06 June 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

Bah.... no one around.

I am NA. Time out is really bad time for me. Skintick, you around?

I honestly don't think this has received enough attention, probably due to Tiamatha revealing the next day and all our attentions being directed that way. It's not so much the hammer as a lack of a proper explanation that irks me. This is exactly the sort of vote which can be explained away later as, 'oops, I was so convinced!'.

The other reason this stands out to me is because it reminds me of something I did when I was a symp some games ago. A finder revealed at L-1 and I immediately hammered without any explanation before anyone could remove their vote. I did this because I knew it would be worth it to see myself lynched off the following day in exchange for a finder lynch this day. In any event, I don't think I was even lynched the next day!

Tholen, on 06 June 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Nice try.

vote Skintick

Here for the first time Tholen begins to express reservations about Shadow (although, come to think of it, I don't think he ever actually voted for Shadow anyway). It would be misleading to say that Tholen is backtracking, though. Perhaps more appropriate to say that Tholen's ideas about Shadow are solidifying - now not just suspicious as some kind of scum, but suspicious as a symp, rather than a killer.

Tholen, on 07 June 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

Ok, Caught up. Fuck yeah Tiam! Great job! second, @shadow...nah nah nah nah boo boo, stick your head in doo doo.

So on the read up I have a few thoughts. First being this post by Hanas. Holy hell, can you say wishy washy. Let me paraphrase; "I could go shadow, or I could go cast, or I could go whoever is most likely not my master" I know he can't be a killer, but based on this post he has rocketed up to Shadow levels of being on my symp scumdar.

Hanas, on 07 June 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Karatallid, on 07 June 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

Atrahal, on 07 June 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Karatallid, on 07 June 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

Hmmm, been a fairly quiet day so far. So who we looking at today?

A few seem to think Cast is supicious and possibly GL's symp. I am thinking Shadow's play is very defensive and could lead to scum. Have a read, we got a scum CF, form your own opinion.

Although the scum CF is great, that doesn't help us pick out the second scum. We're basically shooting blindly again. Gonna have to look for anyone symping GL to try to tie that person to a 2nd potential scum, methinks.

We're not as blind as we were. I think that we should go to freeze. That way those of us who want can go back to the front and do a re-read.
I could maybe go for Shadow today but I can't decide whether that's because he decided I could be the symp or because he's been all over the place.
Or maybe Cast. But for now I buy (barely) his explanation that he thought Tiam was a fake reveal.

I like Korlat's post in regards to Cast. Though I see him more as a killer type than a symp. Cast had played rather low key until his name was brought up and now he is posting much more. That is fishy and it's the same thing that happened last game.

Here's a pet project of mine that I will research if I have the time. Day 1 Shadow and Desra got into a pissing match. I initially blew it off as a 2 inno, day 1 BS. But since then, they have had relatively little interaction and Desra has basically faded into the woodwork. Could the day one feud have been staged by shadow in an effort to distance from his killer? It's a risky strategy in that he risks a night kill night one, but if he can avoid that, they have a perfect out for not being connected. Like I said, I haven't fleshed it out, but in my experience. Usually day 1 head butting continues until one person is lynched and that usually happens quickly. Why didn't that happen here?


I have no real read on Karatallid which is a bit scary. I initially had him as town in my notes based off some day one interactions...but thats always a bit of a stretch. HP has been playing very under the radar. Always hanging around the thread and popping off posts that comment on others, but very rarely ruffle feathers or attack someone. Atrahal has put in some good effort, but it seems that effort was after Cast started getting heat. So I could maybe see a connection there. But he is more likely town imo Korlat is playing pretty town like in my eyes. Throwing around cases. Maybe a symp, but probably not a killer. Like I said Earlier Hanas' post really threw me and if shadow isn't the symp, then I think Hanas is and I need to go look back at Hanas' interactions. Am I missing anyone? If so..they are probably the Killer


Honestly, I'd like a Desra lynch but doubt that will get any traction until I bring more to the table. I just won't have time to really get down and dirty with it until around Monday. Probably it will come down to shadow or Cast and I think I am leaning towards cast. A Cast lynch would help establish if he is/isn't a killer and it would shed some light, for me anyway, on shadow as I believe that if cast comes back inno that Shadow is a good symp possibility and we can look for people who fit a killer profile that shadow hasn't implicated in anything. Off the top of my head, that list will be pretty small. I am not sure I want to waste a lynch on shadow this early as I think he has been playing to fast and loose to be the remaining killer.

I agree with Tholen on this point, I didn't understand the talk about Gamelon as a lynch target. Here Tholen appears to start wavering about Shadow all together. Rather than agreeing with Karatallid as you might expect given Tholen's previous antagonism towards Shadow, he goes in the other direction.

Tholen, on 10 June 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

Hanas, on 10 June 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

Shadow, on 10 June 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:

Tbh, if we're gonna waste a lynch on Game, because he isn't actually playing the game, and he's inno, I'd rather he was modkilled for playing against his own team.

It's ridiculous we should have to lynch someone off for having not played for a week

Edit:

My point is, it seems a pointless lynch. I mean, someone just not playing is surely not a player issue?

You appeal to the mod for a "modkill for cause". Until then or until somebody makes a damn good case against somebody else, I'm voting him.
After my weekend reading, I'm more suspicious of a couple people and less of some others. Getting rid of Gamelon on the off chance he's is a lying sack of shit seems to me the best use of this day.

Damn... just when I am sure Shadow is the Symp, you post something like this.... Going after the low hanging fruit. Easy pickings. Maybe it's because in my head I have marked gamelon as town, but this seems like wanting to go after the easy lynch. I just can't see gamelon as being scum and playing the way he has...as it is I believe he is over the mod-kill timer. I have to believe that if someone was scum they would put in more effort than gamelon has. He has the feel of a bored RI, who very well might not have time to play, but since he is RI really makes no effort. As I Stated above, even if he isn't modkilled, yet, I won't be voting gamelon.

Shadow, on 10 June 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

I need to go now, so I'm gonna:

Vote HP

I'll hopefully be able to be around later, but not sure how likely it is because I'll be out most of today, and the timing of the day just doesn't work very well for me. In general will probably be around less this week

Edit: X-post with Atrahal.

Then in the battle of who can seem more sympy, Shadow follows up with the classic, place a vote and leave until time expires, basically locking in his vote. I hate that move.

Desra, on 10 June 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

I am here and physically posting. I should be able to gather my mental self at some point today and come up with coherent ideas.


Did Gamelon post anything over the weekend?

Then, my favorite suspect, coming in with absolutely nothing. This is the type of post I would expect gamelon to have if he was actually scum and needed to seem still into the game and hanging around. I know it won't happen, but I'd love a desra lynch.


I think we can safely rule out a Atrahal/HP combo based upon the case he has made.

While I don' t necessarily agree with everything Atrahal posts, I do think HP's helpful yet non informative, middle to high posting is a concern. But here is the kicker, and something I noticed last game. We have a train just about coming to the point of no return on HP, and who shows up...Karatallid with a long 2 post case on Shadow. Now, I am not a big fan of shadow as is obvious, and he has some other people who have expressed thoughts of him for scum. So he seems a likely target here. So my thought is Karatallid sees HP looking to go down, and with 5 (?? less?) hours left in the day comes up with a case on shadow to try and swing the train before it gets too far along. THAT seems scummy.

vote HP

For posting style, and a little in support of Atrahal's case, but mostly because Karatallid comes on and really tries to swing the lynch away from HP.

And now the turnaround is complete as Tholen's attentions to Hanas instead.

Tholen, on 10 June 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

Atrahal, on 10 June 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

Shadow could be killer, you could be, Kara could be but one thing is for abso Fucking lutely certain Hanas is the symp.

Yeah...that hammer and his subsequent response to Desra kinda made that clear. It just goes against everything i've been taught/learned to go after someone who we know will CF as RI. That being said. I'd rather do it now when it isn't D-day.

vote Hanas


I guess I owe Shadow an apology as I have been harping him as symp all game long. I guess I can hope shadow is the killer... but I just don't see it with the way he has played this game. The 2 quick votes on Shadow directly after night are also a little strange and concerning.

So the track of Tholen's thinking has been a lot of sideways glances directed at Shadow, before most recently pulling away from that suspicion, I think more because of Hanas' behaviour than for anything Shadow did. Karatallid has also been mentioned as suspicious a few times by Tholen. Tholen also seems to agree with Shadow that Cast is more likely killer than scum, but hasn't really picked this up again since. There was also antagonism towards Desra and a vague idea of Desra and Shadow being in cahoots. Galayn Lord's hammer on Silchas was initially defended before Tholen turned into one of the bigger pushers of a quick lynch on Galayn following Tiam's reveal. That's the interaction side.


The biggest question marks, for me, rest upon those comments about Galayn and the hammer of Skintick. If Tholen is scum, then he strikes me as much more likely to be a symp than a killer from this activity. The immediate vote on Galayn could be taken as a distancing reaction, knowing that Galayn would come up scum. As I explained earlier, the Skintick vote reminds me of how I once played as a symp. The disparagement of looking for signalling can be seen as deflecting us away from that avenue. If we look at Tholen as a potential killer, on the other hand, then I think the Galayn defence cannot be used as evidence, and the Skin hammer just too risky (although, it would have worked out).

The problem I have, however, is that this marks yet another person being labelled a potential symp, alongside Cast, alongside Hanas, alongside Atrahal, and alongside Shadow. That list is too long for comfort at this stage. Right now, without further input, I would have to put Tholen as third, behind Cast and Hanas, in my suspicions of who could be the symp, simply because those two have been more overt in the symp-like stakes. I don't know if you people see this any differently? If we focus on potential connections, then I see Karatallid-Tholen and Shadow-Tholen as the least likely connections.

[Atrahal]

• We have got to look at potential symps,
• who they could have symped

I am running out of time, the above seems impossible to work out. Hanas is most obvious symp. From what Korlat has said Tholen is most subtle symp (I think could be killer like Anthras a few games back), Cast as symp.


I don't think Shadow can be a symp due to his suspicion of Galayn at the end of day one.

• who the killer may think of as their symp,
• Galayn's lynch day
• Each players contribution

If Shadow is killer who would he think is his symp.

If Kara is Killer who would he think is his symp

if Tholen is killer who would he think is his symp




Etc etc etc.

ie


Shadow symps, Hanas, Tholen and Atrahal.




I think Hanas is most scummy player alive, but he cannot be scum if Tiam guarded him. We have to take this on faith.




I am going to believe Hanas as symp. Therefore I am going to try and focus on this, how long have we left?

[Lizradusa]

It is Day 5. 15 hours and 36 minutes remaining
7 Players still alive: Atrahal, Cast, Hanas, Karatallid, Korlat, Shadow, Tholen

4 votes to lynch, 4 votes to go to night.

2 Votes for Shadow ( Karatallid, Cast )
1 Vote for Hanas ( Tholen )
1 Vote for Cast ( Hanas )

Players not voted: Atrahal, Korlat, Shadow

[Korlat]

Shadow, on 11 June 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Korlat, on 11 June 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Shadow, on 11 June 2013 - 12:47 AM, said:

Firstly, he could be accused of being overly agreeable, and somewhat middle of that road:

Korlat, on 04 June 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

Shadow, on 04 June 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

This is a ludicrously bad case.

Sadly everyone's made a pathetic effort to contribute, and thus yet again anyone actually being vocal and trying to play the game becomes a target.

It's awful, I agree, but I don't see better currently. Doesn't mean it's not right anyway, though perhaps for the wrong reasons Really out now.

Heh, this was actually me trying to antagonise you! I'm hurt that not only did you not take the bait, you didn't even realise it was bait

I actually did respond to your post. Here.

So you did, and your response (so people can see, you just know some will be too lazy to click the link):

Shadow, on 04 June 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

Maybe there'd be better if people were bothered to actually play.
It's great getting to hop onto a train that is simultaneously decried though, just cause no one else has presented anything better for you to do, lots of info for town there.

Are you having a go at me or having a go at people in general? I should also remind you that one of the reasons there was so little else to say is because you yourself dominated a large part of day 1. You often have a way of dismissing others' 'pointless' posting whilst at the same time calling for more posting. I know you would say that you mean more content-full posting, but there are times when what you consider to be content-less is not judged with the same yardstick as others use.

Quote

Korlat, on 11 June 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Shadow, on 11 June 2013 - 12:47 AM, said:

Almost the definition of middle of the road here:

Korlat, on 05 June 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

Ooooh BUUURRRNNN!!


This is a nice little back-and-forth you two have going on, though at the end of it I can't same I'm truly convinced either way. But what I'm getting from Tiamatha's case is essentially the same thing (possible signalling) as why Shadow was being sized up for a lynch on Day 1, only Tiam's substituted Atrahal for Silchas Ruin as the symp. Tiam might use words like 'gestalt case', but it does seem a signalling case at it's very heart. Don't get me wrong, I was willing to place my vote on Shadow for that reason yesterday, so I would not be averse to doing the same today, except it feels like Tiam is trying quite hard to frame this case as something it's not.

I'm going to have to disagree with your interpretation of this as 'middle-of-the-road'. I was pointing out that Tiamathat had made a crappy case and had dressed it up in fine clothes in order to disguise it as something more than it actually was - a familiar case rehashed with a new antagonist - and this made me stop and consider why Tiam was bringing it up. In fact, if you go back during Tiam's reveal, you'll see that I bring it up again - why was Tiam dressing up these cases when they suspected GL of being the killer? Tiam answered well and it led me to believing their reveal.

"I can't say I'm truly convinced either way"

It's very wishy washy. Doesn't like Tiam's case:

"Tiam might use words like 'gestalt case', but it does seem a signalling case at it's very heart"

But would still be happy to go for me:

"Don't get me wrong, I was willing to place my vote on Shadow for that reason yesterday, so I would not be averse to doing the same today"

But doesn't like Tiam again.

"except it feels like Tiam is trying quite hard to frame this case as something it's not."

It just seems like it's hovering on the fence, trying to play both sides. You dismiss the majority of his case, say that he's "trying quite hard to frame this case as something it's not." and then don't really take issue with this at all?

Trying to play both sides, no. Hovering on the fence, yes. I liked the idea of potential signalling there, but I didn't understand why Tiam was trying to dress it up as more than that when they came to make their case. That's the part that made me wary.

Quote

During the reveal, for reference:

Korlat, on 06 June 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

I do have a question for Tiam - your cases yesterday put together Shadow and Atrahal. Do you think that was just the wrong track now or what?

Which is not quite as strong a statement as "why was Tiam dressing up these cases when they suspected GL of being the killer".

As you've noticed (and further point out below) that is the course my posts take. As they do every game, whether I be town or scum. I like to often prod with my questions before, if ever, getting down to what I really think. In this instance, Tiamatha actually realised the train of my thoughts anyway, and addressed it in their response to me.

Quote

Korlat, on 11 June 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Quote

Agreeable, but not really adding anything useful:

Korlat, on 06 June 2013 - 01:48 AM, said:

Cast, on 06 June 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

Does anyone else feel like Skintick is trying to piss us off?

And seeing how far they can take it? Yeah, kinda. A little like Khell's 'dumb inno' from a couple games back, only not actually as irritating. Or, on the other hand, seeing that they're prime meat for the lynch, deciding to go the route of 'uninterested townie' in hopes of dissuading the train that way. Or then again, genuinely not paying attention, sigh.

I'm not sure what you're looking for here. I agree it's a possibility, but I'm not certain, and I'm not certain because of such and such reasons.

My point is that it's overly agreeable. You agree it's possible, then list a load of the other possibilities and don't come to any form of conclusion at all on which you actually think is likely. So it's not adding anything, except being agreeable - why post it at all if it only serves that purpose?

Someone asked a question, I answered it with what I think. You yourself have often listed various options, permutations, and variables to opinions and events. I just don't see how this particular post is striking in that regard. Though again, you do have a lovely habit of calling posts purposeless

[Atrahal]

Which pulls me back to Kara and Shadow.

Hanas, on 08 June 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

Shadow, on 08 June 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

Hanas, on 08 June 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

Karatallid, on 04 June 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

Well, Silchas is pretty close to a low poster. He's got 9 posts, only 5 of which actually have content. The rest are just condemning me for being French Canadian.

Yes, I know this is day 1 shit. But I have an odd sense of humor and this amuses me.
You think it's bad that you're being targeted because you're French Canadian? I've got people targeting me because Liz is German.

Other than that neither of you have really had heat for either of those things...Funny thing to bring up.

You failed the test to move up to moron didn't you?

[Korlat]

Edit: This is a continuation of my response to Shadow.

Quote

Partly this also blurs into a language thing.

I mean:

Korlat, on 07 June 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

I appreciate you taking my suspicions of Cast and seeing where else you can take it, Atrahal. The 'my boss is intownso...' right after Galayn's post is something I missed.

However, I see one immediate problem with you linking Cast and Shadow together, and that's the fact that Cast immediately went after Shadow and voted for them as soon as they got on today.

The language in the first line is just strange. It's like something out of a shitty self-help book about how to be friendly. You make absolutely sure to find something to compliment, even while he's completely misinterpreted/misunderstood you, and while you're shooting down his point in the second line. It's artificially balanced, very non-confrontational, and gives the impression of trying to play both sides, stay in everyone's good books.

Hmm, I make 'absolutely sure to compliment', or that's simply the way in which I write? It's not artifically balanced, because I did appreciate Atrahal looking over Cast after I brought it up, because I wasn't sure anyone would pay attention. But I didn't immediately jump on board with what they were saying nonetheless, because I thought there were problems there and I pointed them out. As a point, I always remain non-confrontational unless I'm sure about something - I don't see the need to jump down throats unless I can do it from a very strong position. I guess Venge just didn't rub off on me.

Quote

Korlat, on 11 June 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Quote

His case on Hanas is also a bit on the easy side. It's the kind of thing I could easily see being someone wanting to look like being a bit more involved, without putting themselves out there too much, and he doesn't push it very vigorously.

Case? What I did with Hanas is pretty much the same you're doing here with my posts. Would you call this a case? I decided to do an analysis of Hanas' posts because something about them pricked me. I was suspicious, yes, and I wanted to see what it was about them that made me so. I then outlined the reasons why when I set out their posts. There was nothing I could place as overly incriminating, though I did feel that I highlighted their style of play and made it something to watch. Only when Tiamatha revealed and set out their beliefs did I become convinced (albeit tragically briefly) that Hanas was indeed a killer.

I'm not sure why you feel it's better to say that it wasn't a case. My point is, if you were going to pick someone to do an easy piece of analysis on to look like a contributor, Hanas is about as easy as it got at that point, because he hadn't done much, as you said at the time. You didn't really follow up your analysis with much conviction. But then, if you didn't think he was scummy, why choose him for the analysis? For someone suspicious of him, you don't push him very hard. Your conclusion:

.

No see, now you're confusing a fact with your own opinion - something which you do have a habit of doing. I chose Hanas because his posting rang bells for me, and I wanted to try and find out why. It was also putting forward another person (something which you claim to be in favour of). And moreover, do you now disagree that Hanas does not continue to seem suspicious (albeit for different reasons to when I first brought them up)?

For me, it often works like this, especially early game: I get a vibe or suspicion off someone; I then examine their posts to see why that may have been; only once I have done so can I attempt to say either way whether there was something really there worth pushing on, whether it continues to be just a feeling, or whether I was simply wrong to think that way; But, in whatever case, I will put my thoughts on thread, because someone else might be able to spot something I missed from that - either to back up my suspicions, or to discredit them and allow us to move on.

Quote

Korlat, on 06 June 2013 - 01:32 AM, said:

As I said, like an HP mini-me. Same sort of style, but in fewer posts, and a suspicion of Atra-Gamelon which is pushed very lightly, as if almost looking for someone else to leap on and run with it.

The reason I felt this was all worthy of notice is because it's so un-noteworthy. Very middle of the road and nothing for anyone to sink their teeth into - a few posts now and again are hints at efforts toward individual independent thought and action, but never go beyond that hint.

You're wishy washy on Hanas, and wishy washy on Skintick.

Ok, from now on after an inconclusive analysis, I will make sure to say TOWN or SCUM, for your benefit, even if that means absolutely nothing in reality

Quote

And posts like this are just trying way to hard to look helpful:

Korlat, on 06 June 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Alright, I really have to go again.

Shall I place my vote now, or shall I leave it if there's enough people around to do it later?

He was L-2, with like 30 hours left.

Uh, looking helpful, or actually being helpful? I said that I would not be able to be around much longer, so it was either place my vote then or potentially not at all (I somehow doubted that you would all wait until I came back again ). And, actually, come to think of it, had I not said anything along those lines, I can just see you coming up with something like, 'ooh, why did you ignore the Galayn train, Korlat?'

Quote

Korlat, on 11 June 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Quote

The other really noticeable thing is the pick up of activity in comparison to how quiet he was early game, which does mirror how scum tend to play, in particular with coasting day one.

I've admired your posting this game, but this is just a silly point to end with. I think I stated early on that I would be quite busy early on and that it was likely to continue over the week. Indeed, I would hardly say my posting numbers have changed drastically day to day. Moreover, with day 1, even when I was around, in between the Atrahal-Kara and yours and Desra's tiffs, I saw little to interject about.

Eh, regardless of whether you say it's gonna be the case at the start or not, it's worth noticing when someone's posting pattern falls into the same one we see commonly with scum.

Of course it's not damning evidence on it's own or something, and of course there are a variety of reasons that this could happen, town or otherwise.

But it is still worth noticing.

And I would say that you had a coasty day one. Though looking back, it's not really just day one you can be accused of coasting. When does your activity really pick up? You make a case on Cast as symp, and other than that, what original contribution do we have?

I would say that I had a largely absent day one. I think you're being disingenuous about my contribution. It is like me saying, "Shadow, what contribution have you made exactly? I mean, if people didn't keep bringing you up, would you be even noticeable? What cases have you mad that people have followed you on, or strongly agreed with you on, despite all your posts?"

This post has been edited by Korlat: 11 June 2013 - 02:06 PM

[Atrahal]

Hanas, on 10 June 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

Korlat, on 06 June 2013 - 01:32 AM, said:

Back to Atrahal-Gamelon. Seems to put faith in Tiam's deduction skills, possibly feeling there might be an ally there?

Hanas, on 05 June 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 05 June 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

Shadow, on 05 June 2013 - 01:08 AM, said:

Hanas, on 04 June 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

Shadow, on 04 June 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

Hanas, on 04 June 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

13 players. 2 killers. 1 guard. 1 healer.
No NKs
Very good guessing. 1 or both killers abstaining. Or mod shenanigans.
Day 2 looks to be fun. Where's the popcorn?

Yeah, really unsure what to make of it.

It's possible they kill on alternate nights for example. It has been the case before anyway, not sure how likely it is.

Co-ordinated withhold? Or just both independently deciding to, it's a feasible strategy.

Really unsure.

Would you care to speculate on how the coordination took place? Just when I was thinking you might not be scum.

Via signal presumably. Would be worth checking back to see if there is anything that didn't look suspect at the time that could suggest something like that. Dunno, just throwing possibilities out there really and it's one of them. Dunno what's scummy about it tbh?

I'm hesitant to jump on the possibility of roled players being successful, because it's a risky thing to put weight on for town, and there are other possibilities.

Yeah, agree with Hanas here. Shadow looks like he is coordinating, again...

I was pointing out that his "coordinated withhold" was a load of bollocks. And that made me re-think his place in mental who is what file.

Tia, as long as you're looking at Atrahal go back and look at the Atrahal/Gamelon exchange. I'm probably seeing things, but...
Posts 130-136

Outlines the Atrahal-Gamelon suspicion, but explains that he, 'doesn't really know why' it bothers him. I would suggest because 1) you're fixating on it because you're the one who brought up fraulein in the first place; and 2) it's very weak.

Hanas, on 05 June 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

Hood, on 05 June 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

@ Hanas - what were you thinking about the exchange w/ Gam & Atrahal?

This.

Atrahal, on 04 June 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

Gamelon, on 04 June 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

Atrahal, on 04 June 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Gamelon, on 04 June 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Atrahal, on 04 June 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Just Tholen and Venesara yet to post. I was about to mention you Gamelon. What do you think of the day so far?

I think Desra should learn some new threat, Isn't "when I become a mod, ..." some kind of Meta?
I also think that Shadow is a little obnoxious.
Also learned a new word: "fraulein"

Have you ever watched "The sound of music"?

Nope.

Ah, that is what Maria is. Fraulein Maria. I admit, I did not know until after I watched this film.

And I don't really know why it bothers me. But I get a signaling vibe.

And yes, I am the person who used "fräulein". Lizadrus lives in Germany.

Hanas, on 03 June 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 03 June 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

The above argument is borderline regarding meta. Another argument like that will get the person coming up with it mod-killed. If you are unsure, if you can say something, ask me.

Fräulein Lizard, is it permissible to say they are both too fucking stupid to pass a kidney stone and can we please lynch them both today?

As I said, like an HP mini-me. Same sort of style, but in fewer posts, and a suspicion of Atra-Gamelon which is pushed very lightly, as if almost looking for someone else to leap on and run with it.

The reason I felt this was all worthy of notice is because it's so un-noteworthy. Very middle of the road and nothing for anyone to sink their teeth into - a few posts now and again are hints at efforts toward individual independent thought and action, but never go beyond that hint.

I still find that Atrahal - Gamelon exchange a bit 'off'. And still not certain why. But GL voted Atrahal for ass kissing Gamelon. Which sorta lets Atrahal slide a bit down the list seeing as how GL turned out to be a killer.
@Korlat - is an "HP Mimi-me" a good thing or a bad thing? And I may have "now and again are hints at efforts toward individual independent thought and action, but never go beyond that hint." Put on my gravestone. Damned with faintest of praise indeed!

I am going to

vote kara or shadow.

D day is fast approaching, I am torn between Kara and Shadow for today's vote. I cannot see me getting behind many others. Hanas voting Cast muddy's the thread up. I think Shadow is here and posting and so is Korlat which is what town should be doing. Yet Shadow left towards day end yesterday and said he wasn't coming back, convinced HP is a killer? Or smart move sealing the lynch?

Shadow has two votes on him, Korlat, Tholen and myself are yet to vote. That goes in Tholen's favour, as Hanas would just hammer otherwise.

[Korlat]

I am going to get some work done, and then I want to come back and try and have a look through Karatallid's posts.

Atrahal, I think that Shadow is at the very least not a killer, and probably town altogether. My reasoning is simple (and non wishy-washy ). He is currently sitting halfway up the lynch tree. And what does he choose to do? He chooses to look at someone who has received very little attention thus far. If he was looking to solely save himself, there would be easier targets than me.

[Atrahal]

Korlat, on 11 June 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

I am going to get some work done, and then I want to come back and try and have a look through Karatallid's posts.

Atrahal, I think that Shadow is at the very least not a killer, and probably town altogether. My reasoning is simple (and non wishy-washy ). He is currently sitting halfway up the lynch tree. And what does he choose to do? He chooses to look at someone who has received very little attention thus far. If he was looking to solely save himself, there would be easier targets than me.

Yes I see that, I did almost vote for Kara right then and there I want to hear from everyone today, then place my vote. I don't see Shadow as a symp because of the pointing fingers at GL on day one.

Hanas cannot be the killer due to him being guarded.

Hanas is most scummy player alive ie must be the symp.

That leaves one of the people voting for Shadow as innocent.

Now Hanas voting Cast could be a ruse or double bluff.

Cast has not liked Kara or me in the past.

Yet Cast following Kara (whom she earlier distrusted is a scummy move)

[Atrahal]

Those are the facts. They lead me to actually want to vote Cast. Clusterfuck. I want your opinions on the above. Shadow, Tholen and Korlat.

Then we'll see what Kara and Cast have to say for themselves.

[Atrahal]

I am going to go with Desra here. He votes Hanas. Hanas hammers HP

Path-Shaper, on 10 June 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

It is Day 4. 2 hours and 57 minutes remaining
10 Players still alive: Atrahal, Cast, Desra, Gamelon, Hanas, Hood's Path, Karatallid, Korlat, Shadow, Tholen

6 votes to lynch, 5 votes to go to night.

1 Vote for Gamelon ( Hood's Path )
1 Vote for Hanas ( Desra )
5 Votes for Hood's Path ( Atrahal, Shadow, Cast, Korlat, Tholen )
1 Vote for Shadow ( Karatallid )

Players not voted: Gamelon, Hanas

Hanas, on 10 June 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

For a lynch.
Vote HP

Desra, on 10 June 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Hanas, on 10 June 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

For a lynch.
Vote HP

And the symp hammers with almost 3 hours left in the day. Brilliant you fucking morons. That is why you don't leave the symp alive if you know who he is!!!

OH we think that Hanas is the symp but because he isn't the killer lets not lynch him. Instead lets put some other guy at l-1 and then let the symp come on and hammer. Fucking retards.

Tholen protecting Hanas is quite bad. Tholen may be the killer.

Desra, on 10 June 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 10 June 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

It is Day 4. 2 hours and 57 minutes remaining
10 Players still alive: Atrahal, Cast, Desra, Gamelon, Hanas, Hood's Path, Karatallid, Korlat, Shadow, Tholen

6 votes to lynch, 5 votes to go to night.

1 Vote for Gamelon ( Hood's Path )
1 Vote for Hanas ( Desra )
5 Votes for Hood's Path ( Atrahal, Shadow, Cast, Korlat, Tholen )
1 Vote for Shadow ( Karatallid )

Players not voted: Gamelon, Hanas

So the scum killer is probably either Korlat, Tholen or Cast and Hansa is the symp.

Hanas votes Cast today.

I am going away from the thread with a little head ache.

Just reading the end of day yesterday hurts. It was wrong for Hanas to hammer with 3 hours to go. I think we need to get rid of Hanas today and then decide on who we think he was symping.

[Hanas]

Atrahal said:

1370950425[/url]' post='1062008']

Hanas said:

1370394838[/url]' post='1060248']

Tiamatha said:

1370389296[/url]' post='1060239']
So is that killers afraid of hitting one another, a successful heal, a successful guard, or some combination therein? And this is the second time I've seen this from Shin in recent history

Healer and guard both getting it right would be rather unlikely. My guess is that one killer abstained, the other forgot to put an action in, and the healer was guarded. Or Shin was a killer and Liz gave the role to somebody else.

WIFOM symp boy.

Sarcasm retard.

[Atrahal]

Hanas, on 11 June 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Atrahal, on 11 June 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

Hanas, on 05 June 2013 - 01:13 AM, said:

Tiamatha, on 04 June 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

So is that killers afraid of hitting one another, a successful heal, a successful guard, or some combination therein? And this is the second time I've seen this from Shin in recent history

Healer and guard both getting it right would be rather unlikely. My guess is that one killer abstained, the other forgot to put an action in, and the healer was guarded. Or Shin was a killer and Liz gave the role to somebody else.

WIFOM symp boy.

Sarcasm retard.

Pedanticism spastic.

[Hanas]

Remove Vote

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 5. 13 hours and 50 minutes remaining

7 Players still alive: Atrahal, Cast, Hanas, Karatallid, Korlat, Shadow, Tholen

4 votes to lynch, 4 votes to go to night.

1 Vote for Hanas ( Tholen )
2 Votes for Shadow ( Karatallid, Cast )

Players not voted: Atrahal, Hanas, Korlat, Shadow

[Karatallid]

I'm really happy to see all the analyses going around today! It's really helpful to be able to sift through all these interactions. The problem I am seeing is that everyone suspects almost everyone of being a symp, but almost no one of being scum.

As it stands, I am still convinced that Shadow is scum, so my vote stays there. The only two other places I am willing to move my vote are to Hanas, and, to a slightly lesser degree, Atrahal. The thing that's got me is that if there are two scum left, then why don't they just hammer Shadow? Either Cast or Shadow must be one of the scum, if you ask me.

[Atrahal]

Karatallid, on 11 June 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

I'm really happy to see all the analyses going around today! It's really helpful to be able to sift through all these interactions. The problem I am seeing is that everyone suspects almost everyone of being a symp, but almost no one of being scum.

As it stands, I am still convinced that Shadow is scum, so my vote stays there. The only two other places I am willing to move my vote are to Hanas, and, to a slightly lesser degree, Atrahal. The thing that's got me is that if there are two scum left, then why don't they just hammer Shadow? Either Cast or Shadow must be one of the scum, if you ask me.

Why isn't Hanas jumping onto the Shadow train? Fake symping imo. He is waiting for someone to put their vote there before hammering. How can you say Shadow is scum after the last few days is beyond me.

Kara I have you, Cast, Hanas, Tholen as potential scum.

If you are innocent then you got to look at the people you are grouped with. You think me scummy? Why? Get your head out your arse and think things through. Stop being narrow minded and look at the whole. Who do you think is most likely symp? How can you see Hanas as potential town? If you think him scummy then what the fuck are you thinking I am scummy for? I'm shaking my head here.

*shakes head

Why Shadow?

Why not Cast?

Why not Tholen?

Why not Korlat?

[Hanas]

Lizradus said:

1370959364[/url]' post='1062050']
It is Day 5. 15 hours and 36 minutes remaining
7 Players still alive: Atrahal, Cast, Hanas, Karatallid, Korlat, Shadow, Tholen

4 votes to lynch, 4 votes to go to night.

2 Votes for Shadow ( Karatallid, Cast )
1 Vote for Hanas ( Tholen )
1 Vote for Cast ( Hanas )

Players not voted: Atrahal, Korlat, Shadow

Lots of hours to go in this day. So don't put on blinders.

I didn't like the short exchange about Sound of Music, Fräulein Maria, etc. I had been letting Gamelon slide because he said early on that he'd not be able to post early on the week. Since KL and Shin had both said that I was willing to give some slack. But once they were both dead, and Gamelon was still alive, I thought there might be something to that exchange.
On the other side of that is Atrahal. Who has done some excellent work above. Except the part about me being the symp.