[Oakeshott Type X]

I've been following along (2 years later) with the Tor Re-read and it is quite helpful in understanding the book. One passage though I find hard to understand, this is why I created an account for this site. Apologies if it has been asked before, but I didn't want to accidentally come across some spoilers while searching for my answer. Here is the passage and a link to the re-read page:

"Is this a mistake or have I picked something up? I believed it was only Icarium and Mappo who descended the stairs, but it then says: "Without another word the three began walking." The three?! [Bill's interjection: Mappo, Icarium, and the reader.]"


http://www.tor.com/b...chapter-4-and-5

So Bill is saying that we, the reader, are the third person who "began walking" in this scene? In other words Erikson is breaking the 4th wall and including the reader as part of the story (Never Ending story style??)

I'm afraid I don't buy that, up till now its the first time this has happened (that I've noticed anyway). It seems kind of arbitrary. Unless...

Something about Mappo, Icarium, Pust, the mysterious warren, or the defiled magic in the room is supposed to contribute to the breaking of the 4th wall in this scene? Alternatively, there is a third person in the room who is simply not acknowledged by Erikson except in this brief nod. Or perhaps I missed a small detail which explains this in some other fashion.

Regardless, I'm very curious about it. It is kind of distracting to me so if anyone wants to explain it, without giving away too much I would be much appreciated. Sorry, this is my first post and I haven't introduced myself in the beginner's forum yet, its just this is driving me crazy!

Thanks for looking.

[Aptorian]

The implication is that Pust is spying on them... or is it perhaps somebody else? Maybe a spider? ... but no, you have to expect that it is Pust that it is referring to. His insane monologues and irratic behavior is part insanity and part bad acting on his part. Pust sees and hears everything going on here, there and everywhere a shadow is to be found.

[Defiance]

I don't think it's the reader. While there are some meta elements to the series, nothing so overt exists. Erikson stayed away from directly addressing the reader in such a manner, and rightly so.

It could be Pust hidden in shadows, but personally I think it's just a typo. These things happen, and it's something that could quite easily slip by an editor.

[Oakeshott Type X]

Defiance, on 20 May 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

I don't think it's the reader. While there are some meta elements to the series, nothing so overt exists. Erikson stayed away from directly addressing the reader in such a manner, and rightly so.

It could be Pust hidden in shadows, but personally I think it's just a typo. These things happen, and it's something that could quite easily slip by an editor.

Good to know I'm not crazy. "The reader" appearing as a character in the book completely unannounced like that with no precedence or subsequent reference makes absolutely no sense. Both explanations suggested here are more plausible, however I still don't feel certain about either one. If it truly was supposed to be Pust himself, I would think a more vague reference would be more appropriate, rather than just arbitrarily dropping "the three." If its the spiders, then well, wouldn't there be more than just one? I know its a completely minute detail but for some reason I can't shake it.

I'm going to go back and read the whole passage again and look for clues. Thanks for the fast responses!

EDIT:

Read the scene again, there are a couple things I took note of, but nothing that really shines more light on it.

1. When Mappo and Icarium are moving the blocks of granite from the portal, it says "the final five minutes they had an audience, as a squall of bhok'aral appeared on the staircase... when [they] clambered through the opnening, howerever, the bhok'arala did not follow."

2."Icarium, do you think Iskaral Pust is preparing for more visitors... 'I do not know. Let's ask him.' They stepped back from the threshold."

3. As they are leaving, "the bhok'arala awaited them at the stairs and followed the two men at a discreet distance up to the main level."

Oh well, enough banging my head, guess I'll move on. I do not approach comprehension...

This post has been edited by Oakeshott Type X: 20 May 2013 - 11:42 PM

[amphibian]

Well, there's another famous Mappo/Iskaral Pust/Icarium moment in Deadhouse Gates that gets quite a few questions as well. I'll wait and see if you catch it.

[Oakeshott Type X]

Quote

amphibian, on 21 May 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

Well, there's another famous Mappo/Iskaral Pust/Icarium moment in Deadhouse Gates that gets quite a few questions as well. I'll wait and see if you catch it.

Hmm, well I'm starting to wonder now if it maybe refers to Icarium being half jaghut and/or having this weird personality split? Keeping my eyes peeled...

EDIT: I just finished the next scene and I may have found the moment you are referring to. Iskaral is doing a deck reading and the first card pulled is the Obelisk (to which he starts going crazy) I remember from the last deck reading in the keep with Kalam, the fraud woman does a reading and pulls the Obelisk as well. Kalam reveals her as a fraud because "the Obelisk is not active in the Seven Cities."

So therefore A. Kalam is wrong, and it is active, or B. Iskaral is duping the two (either intentionally or unintentionally...)

Am I close ?

Unless of course you are referring to the matter of typos, in which case I found one of them too: "followedin" on page 188 :-P

This post has been edited by Oakeshott Type X: 22 May 2013 - 03:49 PM

[WhiskeyPhil]

Oakeshott Type X, on 20 May 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

I've been following along (2 years later) with the Tor Re-read and it is quite helpful in understanding the book. One passage though I find hard to understand, this is why I created an account for this site. Apologies if it has been asked before, but I didn't want to accidentally come across some spoilers while searching for my answer. Here is the passage and a link to the re-read page:

"Is this a mistake or have I picked something up? I believed it was only Icarium and Mappo who descended the stairs, but it then says: "Without another word the three began walking." The three?! [Bill's interjection: Mappo, Icarium, and the reader.]"


http://www.tor.com/b...chapter-4-and-5

So Bill is saying that we, the reader, are the third person who "began walking" in this scene? In other words Erikson is breaking the 4th wall and including the reader as part of the story (Never Ending story style??)

I'm afraid I don't buy that, up till now its the first time this has happened (that I've noticed anyway). It seems kind of arbitrary. Unless...

Something about Mappo, Icarium, Pust, the mysterious warren, or the defiled magic in the room is supposed to contribute to the breaking of the 4th wall in this scene? Alternatively, there is a third person in the room who is simply not acknowledged by Erikson except in this brief nod. Or perhaps I missed a small detail which explains this in some other fashion.

Regardless, I'm very curious about it. It is kind of distracting to me so if anyone wants to explain it, without giving away too much I would be much appreciated. Sorry, this is my first post and I haven't introduced myself in the beginner's forum yet, its just this is driving me crazy!

Thanks for looking.

Thanks for that buddy, I wanted to ask the very same question myself, it was driving me nuts as well but didn't want to appear a total dork !! As mentioned by 'Defiance' I think (and pretty sure) it has to be a typo.

This post has been edited by WhiskeyPhil: 13 April 2014 - 02:06 PM