[goofy5507]

Im new to this forum, but have been a fan of the Malazan series for 2 years. I have read all the books (also those of Esslemont) and am now starting a reread of the books. Following might be some spoilers for people who only read FoD and not yet the Malazan series itself, so don't read further if you haven't.

I am now starting MoI and its prelude made me wonder about the timing of FoD. Because in the prologue we see T'Lann Imass hunting two Jaghut and stating that they are going to invoke the ritual of Tellan. This is timed ca 300000 years before the events in the series. Then we read about the cursing of Kallor by Krul Draconus and Sister of Cold Nights, which is timed around 120000 years before the start of the series. Normally I would think that FoD is timed before even the hunting of the Jaghut, because at the time of FoD, there is no talk of the war between Imass and Jaghut and even more it seems that the Imass do not exist yet. The only problem with this timing is that it is mentioned by Kallor that Draconus will be killed by his own sword and also that Draconus has almost finished forging the sword dragnipur. Now this is pure conjecture but I would think that the forging of the sword would be something of an event in the following books, and this would mean that the trilogy is timed after the cursing of Kallor. So what do you guys think.

I know that Erikson stays vague on many subjects (also timing) on purpose but getting the timing right on the chain of events does seem to be quite important to me.

[Kanese S's]

Repeat after me: The timeline is not important.

[Braven's barber]

Kanese S, on 26 April 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

Repeat after me: The timeline is not important.

The timeline is not important

[Sinisdar Toste]

now repeat after me:

it appears that FoD happens an indeterminate amount of time before both the cursing of kallor and the ritual of tellann. just how long is up for debate, but i do not believe draconus has even an inkling of dragnipur at the time of FoD. What he calls "the time of all darkness" might even refer to a time after FoD. also, the forging of dragnipur had many stages, with the actual forging of a physical weapon encompassing the gate of darkness being one of the last, imo. speaking of that gate, it doesn't even exist until draconus gives mother dark the terondai, if i'm reading FoD right. i suppose you might even say the terondai was the first stage of dragnipur, as eventually the gate it creates becomes tied to the wagon and dragnipur.

[Dragnipurake]

Is there anything that rules out this sequence of events: FoD, then Imass, then Jaghut/T'lan wars, then kallor's curse and then dragnipur?

goofy5507, on 26 April 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

..... this would mean that the trilogy is timed after the cursing of Kallor. So what do you guys think.

[Iamme]

Draconus presents the idea of sword in FoD. It's not even on paper.

[goofy5507]

Dragnipurake, on 27 April 2013 - 01:59 AM, said:

Is there anything that rules out this sequence of events: FoD, then Imass, then Jaghut/T'lan wars, then kallor's curse and then dragnipur?

goofy5507, on 26 April 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

..... this would mean that the trilogy is timed after the cursing of Kallor. So what do you guys think.

Not really no, but I would think that events in the karkhanas trilogy would include the forging of dragnipur, since this also involves the sealing of darkness (somewhere stated in MoI). But if of course the sword is not forged in the trilogy then yes you are entirely right and this could be the timing of events. Guess we'll just have to wait till Erikson finishes the trilogy

[Cyclorrhapha]

Dragnipurake, on 27 April 2013 - 01:59 AM, said:

Is there anything that rules out this sequence of events: FoD, then Imass, then Jaghut/T'lan wars, then kallor's curse and then dragnipur?

To further complicate things here's a quote from TCG:

Quote

'Can you tell me more about these T'lan Imass?'
'They knelt before a mortal man. In the midst of battle, they turned their backs on the enemy. I will say no more of them.'
'Yet you chose to follow Onos Toolan—'
'He was not among those. He stood alone before Silverfox, a thing of bones, and demanded—'
But Draconus had leaned forward, almost over the fire. '"A thing of bones"? T'lan – Tellann! Abyss below!' He suddenly rose, startling Ralata further, and she watched as he paced, and it seemed black ink was bleeding out from the scabbard at his back, a stain that hurt her eyes. 'That bitch,' he said in a low growl. 'You selfish, spiteful hag!'

Draconuses reaction to the fact that Imass are undead implies that the ritual happened after he was Dragnipured, so the ritual itself and the Jagh/Tlan wars probably happened way after the fall of the crippled god and the cursing of Kallor. Then again, the timeline is not important..

[D'rek]

Cyclorrharpha, on 27 April 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

Quote

'Can you tell me more about these T'lan Imass?'
'They knelt before a mortal man. In the midst of battle, they turned their backs on the enemy. I will say no more of them.'
'Yet you chose to follow Onos Toolan—'
'He was not among those. He stood alone before Silverfox, a thing of bones, and demanded—'
But Draconus had leaned forward, almost over the fire. '"A thing of bones"? T'lan – Tellann! Abyss below!' He suddenly rose, startling Ralata further, and she watched as he paced, and it seemed black ink was bleeding out from the scabbard at his back, a stain that hurt her eyes. 'That bitch,' he said in a low growl. 'You selfish, spiteful hag!'

Draconuses reaction to the fact that Imass are undead implies that the ritual happened after he was Dragnipured, so the ritual itself and the Jagh/Tlan wars probably happened way after the fall of the crippled god and the cursing of Kallor. Then again, the timeline is not important..

There could be any number of reasons why he thought the T'lan Imass would have been released by TCG and was not aware of it other than that he was simply Dragnipur'd for so long. Or, even so, he could know that the Tellan Ritual had been invoked before he got Dragnipur'd, but only at that scene in TCG does he find out that as of TCG they are *still* not yet released.

[Cyclorrhapha]

@ D'rek, it's possible that you're right. Hadn't looked at it that way, I just hope we get to see more of Draconus in the Toblakai trilogy as well.
Curious what he'll do after he catches up with the Errant. Maybe he'll mingle again with the Tiste Andii and meet Nimander, the grandson of MD!

[Kanese S's]

I really hope he kills the Errant. That douchebag's had it coming for a looooong time.


One of the most frustrating things about reading FoD was knowing that Errastus wouldn't be getting his comeuppance.

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 29 April 2013 - 03:44 AM

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

I think we will see Rake coming back in the toblaki trilogy

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I dont think so.

Quote

The man that had been Anomander Rake was scattered into the realm of Kurald Galain, on to its own long-sealed path that might - just might - lead to the very feet of Mother Dark.

I think he dead.

[Defiance]

I hope Rake doesn't come back.

Everyone has their own opinion on the various resurrections within the Malazan series. Personally, I don't have a problem with it because Hood's realm is explored and its established very early on that death in the Malazan world is not like death in ours. That said, I have two major problems with bringing Rake back:

1) What Stonny pointed out. The resurrections we've seen have more or less come from souls that have been bound to Hood's realm (or, in cases such as Brys, to another being or god).

2) It would really cheapen the effect of his sacrifice. "Oh hey guys, I died in a fucking kickass way in what is one of the best climaxes in the series, sacrificing myself for the good my entire people, but that was just a minor bump in the road."

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I agree with Defiance. Whilst I like the way resurrection is used in the series (probably because in the grand scheme of things it's used quite minimally, and is always explored in some way), it would drastically cheapen the ending of Toll the Hounds (and most of the book's build up) to bring Rake back.

Sorry matey, but you should stay dead!

[kkyyyssss]

I'm currently reading Fod again and it is clearly said by Olar Ethil when she meets draconus that some Tyrants have arisen among the Jaghut. I'm pretty sure from what I remember that there are many generations between the first enslavement of the Imass and their rebellion against the Tyrants that started the Jaghut wars, so we are obviously well before the first ritual of Tellan.
As for the forging of Dragnipur, while I agree it would be awesome to be in some way witness to it's forging, it would be a REALLY obvious timeline error. So far these have been minimal except in the case with Harlo.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Steven Erikson from his Reddit AMA about a year ago:

Quote

Q: "Is there a reason that you've seemed to prefer a fuzzy sort of timeline when the "before" and "after" matter much more than the actual length of time between events?"

A: "Most of human history saw time as 'before' and 'after.' If we'd used clocks it would have been out of place, I think."

[Spoilsport Stonny]

This too:

Quote

...well, history lies about a lot of things but never lies about that one. The whole notion of history was messed around with quite a bit in the Malazan series, both structurally (yeah yeah yeah, timeline) and thematically. Oh, and it was fun, on occasion, to fuck with the general, standardised sense of history, as a reasonable and fully explainable sequence of causes and effects, this's and that's, blah blah, that are clearly intended to comfort an audience with a false sense of inevitability. Of course, some things are inevitable, but really, what's the point of talking about those?

[Spoilsport Stonny]

You know, I also think Rake's sacrifice lends a completeness to the creation of the world. Give me a second of your time and I will explain using the good ol' Bible.

Initially, blood sacrifice was used as a way to pay tribute to the Old Testament God. It was required by him. We all know (or maybe we don't) the story of Abraham and Isaac. In fact, God preferred Abel over Cain because of the blood tribute compared to the tribute of crops (leading to host of other issues, which aren't necessarily pertinent to my point).

With the New Testament, God sent a human embodiment of himself in the form of his "son" Jesus. His coming was meant to break the old Hebrew law, that of sacrifice. Jesus sacrificed himself for the world, so that afterwards, the people would not be judged on their sins, so much as their faith. No longer was Heaven closed to everyone uncircumcised who did not ritually slaughter rams and ewes, but anyone who accepted the sacrificial lamb as their spiritual savior. Much of this was prophesied in the Old Testament, but again, a moot point.

Obviously SE twisted and changed the creation/sacrifice mythology and the relationships, origins, etc. But the idea of a personal sacrifice to save the world, so to speak, remains. You can point to Rake's sacrifice inside of Dragnipur as his crucifixion moment. And many parallels can drawn elsewhere too. This is another reason why I love TtH SO freaking much. I was raised on the Bible, and alot of my beliefs stem from that early indoctrination, if you will. Of course now I'm a free-thinkin' folk and like to believe that most of it is parable and folk tale. But the use of this timeless theme really hit home with me, and I appreciate the way SE used it.

So having said that, maybe Rake does indeed get a resurrection. However since the only ideas we have of Biblical resurrection are bizarre prophecies with lions, lambs, whores, beasts, seven headed dragons and plague-wielding horsemen, who knows how SE will choose to handle it, if he does at all.

[The Hust Legion]

I don't think rake will come back we will probably see flashbacks like in TCG but I highly doubt he will be resurrected his death was too complete as It says he was dispersed into KG so I don't think rake as a person doesn't exist anymore if SE does bring him back It will be disappointing as rakes end in Tth was very painful yet there was purpose to it and it the end justified (hell there was purpose to everything he did)