[korbalbroach]

Hey all, first post, long time lurker.

During my third or fourth reread of the Book of the Fallen, something came to me; right after Karsa slays Fener, and the bloodrain starts showering the continent, bringing mortality to the Imass and youth to the Forkrul Assail, Torrent kills Olar Ethil, the de facto queen of Tellann, and most likely the oldest character in the series. It´s presumed that Stormy and Gesler are already ascended within Tellann, through their firewalk, but what happens now?

My theory is that Stormy and Gesler ascend even further to take on rulership of Tellann, becoming gods in an elder warren, probably unprecedented as far as humans go. That´s discounting Silverfox, though, and I honestly can´t remember what she´s doing these days.




Why could Stormy and Gesler take on rulership of Tellann, and why not?




Debate!

[Kanese S's]

I thought Sinn killed them.


And Silverfox I would assume to be still 'in charge' of Tellann.


Olar Ethil is one of the oldest characters in the series. I don't know about single oldest, though. Tiam, especially, would be pretty old, older even than OE, I think. Then there's Draconus, Kilmandaros, blah blah blah, other elders.

[Tattersail_]

We see no evidence of anyone taking over this particular Warren. It could be left without a ruler and fade like other Warrens have done in the past. There is a new magical system being born though through Icarium isn't there? So Life may take over as the new Tellan maybe? Lots of different ways this could go.

[korbalbroach]

Kanese S, on 22 April 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

I thought Sinn killed them.


And Silverfox I would assume to be still 'in charge' of Tellann.


Olar Ethil is one of the oldest characters in the series. I don't know about single oldest, though. Tiam, especially, would be pretty old, older even than OE, I think. Then there's Draconus, Kilmandaros, blah blah blah, other elders.

Yes, Sinn killed Stormy (but Calm killed Gesler, Calm in turn killed by Hood, Hood in turn leghumped by a lapdog), but we know only for certain that she killed the "flesh" of him, and Stormy killed Sinn. About the single oldest being thing, that was just to pontificate her ancient control over Tellann, and not really relevant. Draconus and Kilmandaros have no relationship directly with Tellann, as far as I know.

Ganoes Paran, on 22 April 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

We see no evidence of anyone taking over this particular Warren. It could be left without a ruler and fade like other Warrens have done in the past. There is a new magical system being born though through Icarium isn't there? So Life may take over as the new Tellan maybe? Lots of different ways this could go.

No evidence, no, but the majority of the discussions on this site are speculation, due to the very craft way Erikson and Esslemont weaved their universe(s ). None of us really know, and I don´t really find Stormy and Gesler as far fetched candidates for the Tellann rulership. Silverfox is, as far as I know, ruler of the T´lan Imass and possibly Ay only.


With the influence of the blood of Fener, Gesler and Stormy´s god, lots of things seem to happen. Mostly to do with youthfulness and mortality, as far as we know. What we do know is that Stormy and Gesler already have travelled through burning hellfire, ascended, and are servants of Tellann, same way Gruntle is mortal sword of Treach. Not willingly, but shit happens. Then, Stormy and Gesler are swooped up by the K'Chain che'malle, and are made shield anvil and mortal sword. They have ascendant powers, thus attract other powers. One of my many theories is that the elder warrens choose their rulers (Mother Dark, darkness impersonated, chooses, in one way or the other, Anomander as the "king" of darkness), and as very dependable servants of Tellann, Stormy and Gesler are chosen.

Sentimentalism is the name of the game here, though. Stormy and Gesler were amongst my favourite characters through the series, and they´ve been together all their lives. I guess I just want them to keep eachother company in the blissful warmth of Tellann for all time.

Will be interesting to see what comes of the new magical system, if that´s ever something Erikson and Esslemont thinks we should learn about.

[Aptorian]

I think the nature of Tellan is in and of it self too much of a mystery for us to fully understand, let alone start guessing if somebody owns or rules it.

It is both a realm of fire, it's natural aspect, and a "racial warren" one that fuels the T'lan Imass if I understand it correctly. Hell, from what I recall, you could interpret some of the texts to mean that the T'lan Imass actually made it by taking that vow and funnelling their lifeforce into the ritual. But more likely they simply usurped/refashioned the realm to suit their need in the war against the Tyrants.

There is a throne of the Imass that Kelanved has claim to. Is that a throne of Tellan? Or a throne of the First Empire? Are these two the same? If they are not the same then what warren does the throne that Kelanved sat on belong to? A pocket dimension of angry neanderthals?

There was also made a bargain between hood, silverfox, K'rul and probably some more that meant that the souls/pain/memories of the Imass were transfered or... relegated to the Beast Hold. Does this perhaps mean that the realm of the T'lan Imass is now (again?) the Beast Hold? The Imass once worshipped beasts after all.

Truth be told I don't there can be assigned any gods or rulers of Tellan as long as the T'lan Imass still claim it. The time of bowing to any such power has long passed, Silver Fox is fulfilling a need but a God I would assume would be made war upon as soon as one tried to usurp the realm. Ascendant bonehunters or not.

I don't recall Olar Ethil ever being mentioned as a god of Tellan. Protector/champion of the Beast Hold yes. But in modern times, I think she was "merely" a bonecaster/guide (in the same vein as Caladan Brood was to the tribes of Genebackis) when interacting with the Imass. Any more influence than that and her "children" might have turned on her.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 22 April 2013 - 03:29 PM

[Abyss]

Interesting theory...

korbalbroach, on 22 April 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

...Torrent kills Olar Ethil, the de facto queen of Tellann, ...

What do you base that on?

Because while Osserc arguably 'rules' Kurald Liosan/Thyrrlan in absentia and because the Liosan want him to, Rake didn't rule KG, nor does any other draconic Ascendent or God 'rule' any Elder warren that I can think of.

To the extent that we see any god in a pre-eminent role, it's within a House or a notional position that suggests limitted control. Even Shadowthrone doesn't seem to truly 'rule' Meanas, based on the Hounds' behavior and comments in DG, HoC and RCG off the top of my brainz.

Quote

It´s presumed that Stormy and Gesler are already ascended within Tellann, through their firewalk, but what happens now?
My theory is that Stormy and Gesler ascend even further to take on rulership of Tellann, becoming gods in an elder warren, probably unprecedented as far as humans go. ...
Why could Stormy and Gesler take on rulership of Tellann, and why not?

Actually, TCG mentions that Stormy and Gesler were actively resisting ascension. Yes, they had ascended beyond baseline human via exposure to KT, and the aspecting by the Che'malle probably moved them even further up the later, and then there's Gesler's former Fener link and Stormy's link to the Imass...

But that's no guarantee that they move up to any form of godhood after their deaths.

After all, it didn't work out for Truth.

That said, it's not unthinkable, but i imagine that given their deaths and lack of desire to ascend, it would have to be via worship by others, and we didn't see any indication of this, unlike Coltaine or Itkovian as the obvious examples.

Aptorius, on 22 April 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

I think the nature of Tellan is in and of it self too much of a mystery for us to fully understand, let alone start guessing if somebody owns or rules it.

It is both a realm of fire, it's natural aspect, and a "racial warren" one that fuels the T'lan Imass if I understand it correctly. Hell, from what I recall, you could interpret some of the texts to mean that the T'lan Imass actually made it by taking that vow and funnelling their lifeforce into the ritual. But more likely they simply usurped/refashioned the realm to suit their need in the war against the Tyrants.

There is a throne of the Imass that Kelanved has claim to. Is that a throne of Tellan? Or a throne of the First Empire? Are these two the same? If they are not the same then what warren does the throne that Kelanved sat on belong to? A pocket dimension of angry neanderthals?

There was also made a bargain between hood, silverfox, K'rul and probably some more that meant that the souls/pain/memories of the Imass were transfered or... relegated to the Beast Hold. Does this perhaps mean that the realm of the T'lan Imass is now (again?) the Beast Hold? The Imass once worshipped beasts after all.

Truth be told I don't there can be assigned any gods or rulers of Tellan as long as the T'lan Imass still claim it. The time of bowing to any such power has long passed, Silver Fox is fulfilling a need but a God I would assume would be made war upon as soon as one tried to usurp the realm. Ascendant bonehunters or not.

Good points right across.

[Ruthan Good]

Abyss, on 22 April 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

Interesting theory...

korbalbroach, on 22 April 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

...Torrent kills Olar Ethil, the de facto queen of Tellann, ...

What do you base that on?

Because while Osserc arguably 'rules' Kurald Liosan/Thyrrlan in absentia and because the Liosan want him to, Rake didn't rule KG, nor does any other draconic Ascendent or God 'rule' any Elder warren that I can think of.

To the extent that we see any god in a pre-eminent role, it's within a House or a notional position that suggests limitted control. Even Shadowthrone doesn't seem to truly 'rule' Meanas, based on the Hounds' behavior and comments in DG, HoC and RCG off the top of my brainz.

Quote

It´s presumed that Stormy and Gesler are already ascended within Tellann, through their firewalk, but what happens now?
My theory is that Stormy and Gesler ascend even further to take on rulership of Tellann, becoming gods in an elder warren, probably unprecedented as far as humans go. ...
Why could Stormy and Gesler take on rulership of Tellann, and why not?

Actually, TCG mentions that Stormy and Gesler were actively resisting ascension. Yes, they had ascended beyond baseline human via exposure to KT, and the aspecting by the Che'malle probably moved them even further up the later, and then there's Gesler's former Fener link and Stormy's link to the Imass...

But that's no guarantee that they move up to any form of godhood after their deaths.

After all, it didn't work out for Truth.

That said, it's not unthinkable, but i imagine that given their deaths and lack of desire to ascend, it would have to be via worship by others, and we didn't see any indication of this, unlike Coltaine or Itkovian as the obvious examples.

Aptorius, on 22 April 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

I think the nature of Tellan is in and of it self too much of a mystery for us to fully understand, let alone start guessing if somebody owns or rules it.

It is both a realm of fire, it's natural aspect, and a "racial warren" one that fuels the T'lan Imass if I understand it correctly. Hell, from what I recall, you could interpret some of the texts to mean that the T'lan Imass actually made it by taking that vow and funnelling their lifeforce into the ritual. But more likely they simply usurped/refashioned the realm to suit their need in the war against the Tyrants.

There is a throne of the Imass that Kelanved has claim to. Is that a throne of Tellan? Or a throne of the First Empire? Are these two the same? If they are not the same then what warren does the throne that Kelanved sat on belong to? A pocket dimension of angry neanderthals?

There was also made a bargain between hood, silverfox, K'rul and probably some more that meant that the souls/pain/memories of the Imass were transfered or... relegated to the Beast Hold. Does this perhaps mean that the realm of the T'lan Imass is now (again?) the Beast Hold? The Imass once worshipped beasts after all.

Truth be told I don't there can be assigned any gods or rulers of Tellan as long as the T'lan Imass still claim it. The time of bowing to any such power has long passed, Silver Fox is fulfilling a need but a God I would assume would be made war upon as soon as one tried to usurp the realm. Ascendant bonehunters or not.

Good points right across.

Funny enough, I was agreeing with Abyss up until the point of him mentioning how Stormy and Gesler are not worshipped by anyone, and that started me thinking, is that necessarily true? There may be no altars or temples, or anything overly worshippy like that, but, they are remembered by the Bonehunters, by the K'Chain Che'Malle, by the dogs and by Grub (the future first sword of the Empire), all in all indicating at the very least a cult of personality on part with some of the bigger Malazan and Old Guard military commanders. The reason why that is relevant, is that they have already fulfilled three of the common Ascendancy criteria:

1. They died.
2. They were in contact with ascendant and magic forces - fires of Telann, were chosen by the Chemalle, bathed in Fener's blood, touched TCG's heart, might as well throw in Beak's white nova into it, and who knows what else
3. They are remembered, they were witnessed (why not), they are known by the Bonehunters, and their sacrifice was on par with the Bridgeburners, who themselves got a nice special role in this game.

I am, too, of the opinion that the two of them did not want to ascend, but sometimes you don't get to say no. I believe Dassem was in a similar boat. His Ascendant status is too, questionable, but I (could be wrong) was always under the impression that Dassem didn't want ascendancy too. Can't remember what exactly gave me that impression.

[D'iversify]

Whilst I accepted Stormy and Gesler as dead as of the end of TCG, it would be very typically Eriksonian for them to come back or ascend in some form given that this is a series in which death is far from a permanent thing. Would be interesting to consider what they would be deities of ('fire' isn't much of a persona as it is, so if they are now ascendants of Tellann, I assume they would reflect that aspect in some particularly idiosyncratic personal manner).

[korbalbroach]

Thank you all for humouring me with replying and contributing.

Ruthan; you seem to agree with my original idea, but as far as my ramblings go, you´re forgiven if not inclined to follow them. As they´re mostly ramblings.

Aptorius; isn´t Silverfox more of a destriant to the T'lan Imass? She´s many things, and that, too, I reckon. And, as Ruthan points out, there could be some sort of worship involved, after all, they played a pretty huge role in saving the world and gave their earthbound lives for it, as Coltaine did for the bickering mass of idiot refugees on their way to Aren.

The First Throne is, I believe, unoccupied at the moment. I don´t think Stormy and Ges could just take that, as it´s only open to mortals (which Kellanved and Dancer were when they took it), and Stormy and Gesler aren´t mortal. They are ascendants, and I highly doubt they´re deadened to the abyss. I thought, after the first exhausting read of DoD and TCG, that Stormy and Ges were dead, too, but after reading the series a couple of times more (getting to know Erikson more), I find the notion highly improbable.

Isn´t Olar Ethil the mother to the Imass, then bonecaster of the first Tellann ritual? That´s my meaning with "de facto queen".




Will Erikson one day write a comprehensive encyclopedia about who´s who? I´d love to read it, even though it´d span 5000 pages.

[Kanese S's]

I doubt Erikson will ever write an encyclopedia. Just doesn't seem his style.

Silverfox is, for now, seemingly in charge as far as the Imass go.

I only brought up Draconus and Kilmandaros due to the claim that Olar Ethil is the oldest character in the series, when those two are likely about the same age. They don't have any particular link to Tellann. Read FoD for more info on who exactly Olar Ethil is, and who Drac and Killy are.


I don't think Gesler and Stormy ascended fully. I think they passed through to the warren of the dead and such. They were actively resisting ascension basically throughout the series. While they could be brought back as ascendants, true, somehow I think their deaths are permanent, as far as death gets in the series.

I don't think there's a conveniently empty house in the pantheon for them to come back into, as there was with Kel and Dancer, either. If they came back as ascendants, what would they be aspected to, exactly?

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 22 April 2013 - 08:14 PM

[Abyss]

Kanese S, on 22 April 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

...I don't think there's a conveniently empty house in the pantheon for them to come back into, as there was with Kel and Dancer, either. If they came back as ascendants, what would they be aspected to, exactly?

Technically their Thyrllan aspect could have brought them into HHLight, Stormy's brief link to the Imass could have drawn him to HHDeath or Life, or their K'Chain Che'Malle roles could have bumped them into godhood... and the House of War would have made sense, notwithstanding how the Wolves sided with the FA and what happened to Trake. On top of all that, something hid in Stormy via Heboric's hands back in DG.

I don't think any of that materialized, but there were enough events in their history that unwilling ascension wasn't out of the question.

[Kanese S's]

That's true, I suppose High House Light or High House War might have a vacancy.

Aren't the Bridgeburners in charge of High House Death now? Since Hood seems to be retired from the whole "being the god of death" thing.

[Abyss]

Kanese S, on 22 April 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

That's true, I suppose High House Light or High House War might have a vacancy.

Aren't the Bridgeburners in charge of High House Death now? Since Hood seems to be retired from the whole "being the god of death" thing.

Keep in mind a position in a House isn't necessarily dictated by it's 'Head'.

The Bridgeburners seemed to be more in the nature of defenders or caretakers than 'King' in the sense that Hood was.

[AmrosOronar]

korbalbroach, on 22 April 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

Kanese S, on 22 April 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

I thought Sinn killed them.


And Silverfox I would assume to be still 'in charge' of Tellann.


Olar Ethil is one of the oldest characters in the series. I don't know about single oldest, though. Tiam, especially, would be pretty old, older even than OE, I think. Then there's Draconus, Kilmandaros, blah blah blah, other elders.

Yes, Sinn killed Stormy (but Calm killed Gesler, Calm in turn killed by Hood, Hood in turn leghumped by a lapdog), but we know only for certain that she killed the "flesh" of him, and Stormy killed Sinn. About the single oldest being thing, that was just to pontificate her ancient control over Tellann, and not really relevant. Draconus and Kilmandaros have no relationship directly with Tellann, as far as I know.

Ganoes Paran, on 22 April 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

We see no evidence of anyone taking over this particular Warren. It could be left without a ruler and fade like other Warrens have done in the past. There is a new magical system being born though through Icarium isn't there? So Life may take over as the new Tellan maybe? Lots of different ways this could go.

No evidence, no, but the majority of the discussions on this site are speculation, due to the very craft way Erikson and Esslemont weaved their universe(s ). None of us really know, and I don´t really find Stormy and Gesler as far fetched candidates for the Tellann rulership. Silverfox is, as far as I know, ruler of the T´lan Imass and possibly Ay only.


With the influence of the blood of Fener, Gesler and Stormy´s god, lots of things seem to happen. Mostly to do with youthfulness and mortality, as far as we know. What we do know is that Stormy and Gesler already have travelled through burning hellfire, ascended, and are servants of Tellann, same way Gruntle is mortal sword of Treach. Not willingly, but shit happens. Then, Stormy and Gesler are swooped up by the K'Chain che'malle, and are made shield anvil and mortal sword. They have ascendant powers, thus attract other powers. One of my many theories is that the elder warrens choose their rulers (Mother Dark, darkness impersonated, chooses, in one way or the other, Anomander as the "king" of darkness), and as very dependable servants of Tellann, Stormy and Gesler are chosen.

Sentimentalism is the name of the game here, though. Stormy and Gesler were amongst my favourite characters through the series, and they´ve been together all their lives. I guess I just want them to keep eachother company in the blissful warmth of Tellann for all time.

Will be interesting to see what comes of the new magical system, if that´s ever something Erikson and Esslemont thinks we should learn about.

Just friendly clarification, Gesler was killed by Sister Reverence. Calm was killed by Ublala Pung before she could finish Mappo.

[Kanese S's]

Abyss, on 22 April 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 22 April 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

That's true, I suppose High House Light or High House War might have a vacancy.

Aren't the Bridgeburners in charge of High House Death now? Since Hood seems to be retired from the whole "being the god of death" thing.

Keep in mind a position in a House isn't necessarily dictated by it's 'Head'.

The Bridgeburners seemed to be more in the nature of defenders or caretakers than 'King' in the sense that Hood was.

Certainly they're not "King," but they are in charge.