[polishgenius]

Werthead, on 08 June 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

Taking out ADWD, he's actually averaged a bit over 3 years per book, which isn't too bad (slow by Erikson or Sanderson standards, but they are ridiculous outliers in terms of speed). However, TWoW will take longer than that because of these other side-projects he's been doing. As GRRM said himself, he was so relieved at finishing ADWD that he took on too much other work and it's taken much longer than planned to get through them (though he has, more or less, finished them now and is back to working on TWoW, and apparently writing quite fast at the current time).

It's also worth noting (I think John Scalzi pointed it out, in comparison to himself) that in terms of wordcount, GRRM is, if at all, only just under average for this sort of thing. For example there was a gap of five years between Feast and Dance, in which R Scott Bakker put out three books- but in total wordcount if this page is right Martin wrote not much less.
But coz Bakker had three books, he isn't criticised for slowness.

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I wonder if it would have worked better, but then I remember the new(er) BSG, when they took a one-year time jump between Seasons 2 and 3 and it threw the entire series out of whack. Characters behaved completely differently and weird things just happened, and it was all handwaved by, "Oh, it's been a year, things have changed." It felt like a lazy way of skipping the 'dull stuff' in the middle of the big story when the 'dull stuff' is often necessary for character development explaining motivations.

Aye, but on the other hand Bakker and Daniel Abraham have both utilised time-jumps very well in fantasy series since GRRM made that decision. It's a difficult thing to do but it can be done.
I've always found it weird that he was apparently spending all that time doing flashbacks and exposition when he didn't feel the need to do that in a Game of Thrones to explain the backstory of the series. Insinuations and hints in casual conversations and the background are a great deal of what made the series so popular (or at least so internet-popular, with the ensuing theorising and discussion) in the first place.


BSG is great, but often the plotting was simply lazy. A person can accuse GRRM of a lot of things, but under-thinking the plot isn't one of them...

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

QuickTidal, on 08 June 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

And I'm still utterly and completely unswerving in my belief that splitting AFFC and ADWD VIA POV is probably THE BIGGEST mistake in a book series that's ever been made. And I now have proof. A friend who has been slowly reading the books as the show's been on, finished ASOS and wanted "the next book" to borrow...and I gave her both AFFC and ADWD and told her to vary chapters from each so she could get EVERYONE'S stoylines during that time. And she says that it works just fine that way. The cool events in AFFC are slim, and the cool events in ADWD (the 1st 3/4 anyways, before the time catchup) are also slim...but together they make up a better overall read. Thus GRRM should have split them down the middle of the STORY and not VIA POV.

This has been my biggest problem with the series - which I absolutely adored up to the end of ASOS. I feel a time split rather than a POV split (although doubtless that would have caused its own problems as well) would have been better, but we'll never know.

Of course my opinion of Martin wasn't helped by discovering Malazan in the year before Dance was released. What a come down Dance was afterwards!

[worry]

Special surprise:
http://i.imgur.com/dUxOQpr.png

[Jakovasaurus]

mmmmmmm..... tastes like Theon.



# # # # # # # # # # # #

[Terez]

Good season finale, though I think they took the cheesiness with Dany a tad too far. I love how Cersei's and Jaime's reunion was left hanging, so you don't really know how she feels about the stub. Shae's betrayal is nicely set up. Everything is nicely set up—the battle on the Wall, Arya's Faceless journey, Balon's death, Joff's death, Tywin's death...can't wait to get a hint of how next season will be structured. Some things are already wonky, because Jaime didn't return in the books until after Joffrey was dead, so that in itself would tend to hint at an early death for Joff next season.

[worry]

Very last Dany scene was kinda wack, but everything else was solid. Still lovin' Roose's forced-but-trying-to-play-along-with-humans smile/laugh...the only time he's shown actual from-the-heart joy was stabbing Robb last episode. No Stoneheart unfortunately (Michelle Fairley got a job on Suits on USA, whatever that is, but it's another cable show so it's not an all year thing). And that means we get more Beric for a while and hopefully Fairley returns down the line. But there was plenty of mom-talk otherwise, and there was even plenty of dad-talk (Roose, Tywin, Davos, Sam not being a daddy, etc).

[QuickTidal]

I had to remind the Mrs that even S1 had the bigger mindfucking event happen in Ep 9, with Ep 10 left for cleanup and setup of the next season...which is pretty much what we got here. No further shocks, and none of the other major mid-book events from ASOS were present, seemingly all being saved for S4. I'm cool with that, especially if they Off Joff with S4Ep1. That will set the internet abuzz won't it?

It was a good episode, but overall feels like epilogue to last week, and prologue of next season...which is apt I suppose.

Enjoyed it, but on a much more subdued level.

If I had to pick a fave event...Tyrion and Tywin's collective smackdown of Joffrey at the Small Council meeting. Charles Dance absolutely OWNS that role.

Oh, and as much as it was a bit of an over-egging scene...the score during Dany's "mother" moment was some of the best stuff I've heard in the series yet. Very soaring, and not the kind of uplifting stuff you normally hear in GoT. So yeah, solid stuff there.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 10 June 2013 - 06:19 PM

[Primateus]

QuickTidal, on 10 June 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

If I had to pick a fave event...Tyrion and Tywin's collective smackdown of Joffrey at the Small Council meeting. Charles Dance absolutely OWNS that role.

Indeed, that scene underscores why Tywin is one of my favourite characters on the show. I'll add his comment to Tyrion about kings not neccessarily having any power.

Also, the actor playing Joffrey, despite however much we might hate Joff, the actor delivers! He pulls of the basically psychotic brat given too much power perfectly.

I think I shall have to put him in at least top five over who best portrays their character in the show.

Oh, and the end score was actually pretty damn awesome!

[polishgenius]

QuickTidal, on 10 June 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

If I had to pick a fave event...Tyrion and Tywin's collective smackdown of Joffrey at the Small Council meeting. Charles Dance absolutely OWNS that role.

Yeah, that and Arya stabbing the dude were my favourite moments.



I hope they manage to fit in a way to have Roose share a scene with Tywin for an understated-snark-off.

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I think I shall have to put him in at least top five over who best portrays their character in the show.

It's difficult to say. The show has been so good for this, most of the casting has been near enough perfect. Charles Dance and Maisie Williams are unquestionably my favourite two, but after that there's loads and loads. Tyrion, Bronn, Cersei, Joffrey, Roose, Sandor, Varys, Dany, Jorah, Ygritte,

[Terez]

I think Lena Headey is really underrated on this show. Not that people ever say bad things about her acting...just that people don't rave about it more often. Dinklage gets a lot more attention, and honestly, after a while it starts to get a little condescending. (Like, OMG, a dwarf can act! Isn't that special??) Has anyone seen the photos from when he got his first Emmy? I can't find a good one, but you'd think everyone in the audience was his mother, by the expressions on their faces.

[worry]

Pretty much agree with you. Just made a top five show characters for another conversation (distinct from book faves, even if there's overlap) and Cersei was an instant no-brainer.

[Agraba]

It's interesting to see how they mix things around in this show, from the books. You see something omitted, only to see it placed in a different context, or else it is prematurely placed.

Today's example was Arya tricking a man into bending over to pick up her coin, only for her to use the opportunity to stab him to death. (In escaping Harrenhall, she cut the guard's throat, but the distinction is minor.) Another example, last season, was Tywin correcting Arya's "my lord" with "m'lord" in order to better portray a lowborn, as Roose Bolton does with "Reek" in Dance with Dragons.

It's interesting that they didn't show Bran making Sam swear to secrecy about seeing him. Now show viewers are going to wonder why the hell Sam isn't telling Jon about Bran. Or maybe he will after all, and they'll play Jon not sending a team after Bran as one of those "tough decisions" by a Lord Commander. Who knows.

People seem to love Tywin's handling of Joffrey. What I personally liked from that scene was Joffrey pointing out how much braver Robert was than Tywin. I felt a bit of smug satisfaction with Joff throwing that in his face, especially with how obviously that struck a chord with Tywin. But that's just because Robert is one of my favourite characters. It's too bad Joffrey has only adopted all his worst qualities (and magnified them), and none of the good. Just like people say that Cersei thinks she's Tywin with tits, I say Joffrey thinks he's a young Robert Baratheon.

I found it a little strange how easily Theon gave in to his new name, despite what he went through earlier. Having your fingers and toes stabbed through the nails, and being gelded while fully conscious isn't enough to make him succumb to Ramsay's new name for him, but a couple punches in the face is enough? Reek, Reek, it rhymes with strange plot hole.

I'm trying to recall Davos's last scene with Stannis in aSoS. If I recall correctly, Stannis was about to execute him right there on the spot, but then he showed Stannis the letter, and the scene ended in a cliffhanger, with us not knowing Davos's fate, right? Was it an added detail that Melisandre saved him?

Anyway, while I liked a lot of the conversations in this episode, I was mildly disappointed. Especially with the ending scene. I thought it would either be Dany seeing the crucified children on the way to Mereen (a very creepy and foreboding scene, similar to Theon raising the two burnt children in Winterfell), or Lady Stoneheart. Either way, it was a pretty good season overall. Much better than S2, which had some pretty bad pacing IMO. Still, I think Season 1 is the best season so far (which doesn't reflect my opinions of the books, since I liked both CoK and SoS better than GoT).

This post has been edited by Agraba: 10 June 2013 - 11:21 PM

[polishgenius]

Terez, on 10 June 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

I think Lena Headey is really underrated on this show. Not that people ever say bad things about her acting...just that people don't rave about it more often. Dinklage gets a lot more attention, and honestly, after a while it starts to get a little condescending. (Like, OMG, a dwarf can act! Isn't that special??) Has anyone seen the photos from when he got his first Emmy? I can't find a good one, but you'd think everyone in the audience was his mother, by the expressions on their faces.

I don't think it's condescension, I think it's just that he's a central character and a showy role.

People did seem inordinately pleased when he won the first Emmy, true - when they show all the nominees as the winner's read out, at least two of them are absolutely delighted to have lost, Josh Charles actually fist-pumps.
But I reckon some of that had to do with thinking that a fantasy show had no real chance of getting any actual awards.

[worry]

Agraba, on 10 June 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

People seem to love Tywin's handling of Joffrey. What I personally liked from that scene was Joffrey pointing out how much braver Robert was than Tywin. I felt a bit of smug satisfaction with Joff throwing that in his face, especially with how obviously that struck a chord with Tywin. But that's just because Robert is one of my favourite characters. It's too bad Joffrey has only adopted all his worst qualities (and magnified them), and none of the good. Just like people say that Cersei thinks she's Tywin with tits, I say Joffrey thinks he's a young Robert Baratheon.

Yesssssssssssss. The show has made him crazier, but they've still had occasions (Robert's deathbed scene for example) to depict Joff's yearning and neglect. And it's one of the reasons I hope the Purple Wedding will be further into S4, not early. Or at least there will be enough time for Tyrion/Joff/somebody (not limited by POV after all) to make that connection between Joff sending the assassin after Bran and his relationship with his father.

[Terez]

I would be incredibly surprised if Joff's wedding is in the first couple of eps, despite Jaime's premature return. I expect 3-5, with the first several eps focusing heavily on Jon and Arya. We'll get bits from King's Landing setting up the wedding, I expect heavily concentrated on Tyrion, Sansa, and Margaery, and bits from Dany, but I expect Dany in particular to get relatively little screen time in the first few eps if for no other reason than that this is a good point to mystify her a bit and let the dragons grow. I'm guessing the season 4 climax will revolve around Jon becoming Lord Captain Commander (or is it just Lord Commander?) of the Night's Watch. I might need to refresh my memory before season 4 begins; time for reread #2.5 (my last reread was after DWD came out and I got impatient and ditched Dorne and the Greyjoys for the most part in FFC). Other plotlines are non-climactic enough at the end of the book that they can get away with jumping into FFC/DWD material, but it's possible they'll spend the entire rest of the season on Tyrion's trial and escape, with Tywin's death and Shae's betrayal coming at the climax of the season. They have to get into Dorne and focus on the Greyjoys in season 4, so maybe not much opportunity to get into FFC/DWD.

I kind of wish they'd take the opportunity to bring back theater serials just so they could get a better budget. Release it in the theater on Friday and air it on TV on Sunday. Seriously, theater serials used to be incredibly common, and they don't have to be feature length to make good money. With theater prices these days, things would work out more reasonably for everyone.

[worry]

They're gonna have to reintroduce the Mountain pretty early S4 as well, perhaps with a clash or two with Beric et al. And obv. Oberyn will have to be given loads of screen time. All in all, there's plenty to do before the wedding.

[Agraba]

I think they will put some FFC and DWD in Season 4. Since Book 3 already has two seasons, that was enough excuse already to put a lot of CoK into Season 3, to help the pacing. So I wouldn't be surprised. Some event ordering could be messed around. Like, in S4 episode 9 I expect there to be a lot of Wall fighting (starting with the breach at Castle Black, having a lot of the straw-men archery on the wall, and ending with Stannis coming to the rescue). However, at that point, we could have already had Arya in Braavos learning from the Kindly Man, or Danaerys locking up her dragons because a man claimed they killed his boy.

[Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast]

Watched episode 10 this evening and I thought that this one was particularly well acted. Obviously not so much action but the scene between Tywin/Joffrey/Tyrion was excellent, as was the short scene between Jon and Ygritte. Even though it's inevitable, I still don't want her to die.

The stabbing was really well done too -- arya's storyline started out fairly uninteresting to me, but really got exciting in the last couple of books so I can't wait for more of her -- and although Dany's scene was a bit cheesy, I think it worked well. It was in the book like that, wasn't it?...pretty much?

I'm just annoyed at having to wait until next year for more.

[QuickTidal]

Terez, on 11 June 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

I would be incredibly surprised if Joff's wedding is in the first couple of eps, despite Jaime's premature return.

GRRM is writing Ep 2 of S4 (as opposed to his usual late season ep offering)...and he's usually saved for the big events.

So I'm putting money on the Purple Wedding being Ep 2.

[QuickTidal]

Yeah, there is just so much that happens in S4 (second half of ASOS), that starting things off with a relative bang like the PW is going to rock the audience. Much better than saving it for mid-season or late season.