[King Lear]

Dolmen+, on 12 March 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

These Stats are a shock to me tbh. My cousin is the most "hardcore" girl gamer I know of, off thread. She plays the Sims and Farmville. I have never thought that things had progressed this far with almost half the gaming community being female (at least in the more developed parts of the world). In my social circle games are things you play with the guys on a chill night at home, never with the wife or the female friend community. I find that really unfortunate as I think its one more type of fun available to a family or group of friends. Its not a substitute for a great night out at the movies or even a great day playing soccer on the fields but I think its a great option to have.

I have only managed to get the wife to play fashion games and tetris. Not as bad as it sounds tbh but I wish there were games that catered to both our tastes. Like the survey says most gamers are in the thirty bracket. Meaning some are married and/or with kids. I think Sarkeesians documentaries push the Gaming industry to recognize the fact that they need to appeal to both sexes aaand the varied arrangements both parties may find themselves in.

And @ Worrywort: yes, despite my wording that is exactly what I was trying to say.

Yeah I can see why they would be surprising, although I can't say I was terribly surprised myself. I grew up playing games, admittedly they were usually my brother's games, because games were considered by the buyers (ie our parents) to be a boy's thing, even though we fought furiously over who got to use the consoles and all the rest. Admittedly my brother games a lot more than me and always has, but while I don't play as much, I still play a lot of different types of games. But I think we all buy (or bought) into the mentality that girls don't play videogames. I did, as a kid, and I was playing them! And while this is an assumption on my part, I guess the people making the games are like my parents and still think like that.

[Obdigore]

Sorry OO, but girls aren't allowed to play video games unless guys tell them it is ok. Video Games are clearly only for guys and a guy thing. Like sports. And mechanics. Opening pickle jars and going to strip clubs. And using a barbeque.

[Assail]

Illuyankas, on 11 March 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

Ooh, this is getting better, though you're still too much of a coward to flat out call me a pussy. You know you want to, just do it. (then maybe after you can think about why you think calling my behaviour feminine is meant to be an insult, just a suggestion)

Your homeless person analogy would be more accurate if it was a homeless person complaining about being denied work by a person with a home because they don't own a house, which in fact also actually happens. Just as an example, the suffragette movement existed because women were disempowered by men thinking they're better suited to certain avenues of life - like having the right to vote, or the right to work, or equal pay etc - and producing media WHICH VIDEOGAMES ARE A FORM OF BY THE WAY to reinforce this viewpoint, which is the whole damn problem. I'm not going to argue that because it both isn't relevant and IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER IF YOU CAN LIFT MORE THAN, SAY, YOUR MOTHER, YOU'RE NOT INTRINSICALLY BETTER THAN HER BECAUSE OF YOUR PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES WHICH IS THE ATTITUDE YOU'VE EXHIBITED THIS ENTIRE THREAD. It should not even register that she isn't a weightlifter or whatever, you should be viewing her as an equal because she's another human being, just dump the biotruths in the bin, dude!

You really don't understand the fucking point here, do you. The concept of a subconscious exists! There are studies that prove media changes your opinions on things subconsciously! Videogames are media! You've subconsciously taken in the idea that women are doing fine nowadays, while they're doing better but not nearly good! The existance of a few women you know doing ok does not mean there is no longer a problem, it doesn't eradicate all the papers and studies and findings that show you will get paid more and not be fired as easily as someone who has your exact skillset for the job but is female! The external forces at work here can not dismissed on your say-so because they exist even if you don't believe me!

I don't give a fuck if you think I'm less manly than you, I'm happy that I can look at a woman and think 'hey, a person' instead of 'VAGINA DETECTED PROTECTION SUBROUTINES INITATED, DO NOT WORRY FEMALE YOU ARE INCAPABLE OF POSSESSING AGENCY SO I WILL DEFEND YOU'. Jesus Christ, dude. Video games are a facet of the media we enjoy. If there's a problematic element in it or the culture surrounding it (like all the fucking rape threats) we should take a look at it. Or you at least should take at least enough of a look to see that all these people may have a point, instead of disregarding it offhand because it doesn't fit your world view.

Oh, and SEXISM IS OVER is a reference to this:

Hahaha okay, with Silencer's remarks being kept in mind, let's keep it hypothetical and say that I do... as for why it would be insulting, well.. really? As a man, with testosterone, you were designed to be a man. Otherwise you'd most likely be a female, right? With that being said, I would say it's pretty insulting to a man to be said he's feminine because he's was born a man, his genetics state and physical traits show that he is a man, and if he's attempting to go against that grain and be more feminine, I'd say that's close to about as epic failure as one could amount too. That failure is embarrassing considering men have been given all the nature tools in order to be a man, not a female. It has nothing to do with me looking at women in a derogatory light. I love women, and I love especially that they're feminine. I would hope that those two go together without being said lol.

I'm sorry, but my example pertained to exactly how I perceived what you said earlier, and I still don't see any holes in it. Overriding it with an example of your own making means nothing other than you're just trying to twist what I said to further your own arguments advancement.

I understand why the suffragette movement was created, and I'm glad that it was. You and everyone else who believes that women deserved to vote, work, have the same rights that men do are 180% correct, and I'm one of those believers. But are you really comparing damsels in distress, scantily clad video game characters and mario to women's right to vote, equal rights and suffrage? That's a ridiculous leap and precisely why I originally stated that this video was a waste of time to me. People are reading much too deeply into something that is not a problem. Mountain, mole hill etc etc. Whether or not the feminist movement could go and have every DiD-esque game removed, and the story never allowed to be utilized again, it wouldn't change a damn thing, and that's fairly obvious to see. Women aren't going to magically rise up and begin dominating the world and casting down their male overlords in their new empowered state after the removal of this apparently disempowering story arc occurs. That makes it a pretty moot point. People are arguing over something that I feel is an issue that has next to no merit in today's day and age, and instead of blaming video games for an individuals own disempowerment complex, they need to be looking at themselves.

You're right, I stated after Morgoth's post that I was digressing on the physical issue earlier, which is fine, it tends to happen. Lol, believe me, I look at women as my equal as a human being. Most certainly... does this make them equal in all facets of life? No. No one is equal, regardless of gender. We're all better or worse at some things dependent on a multitude of different influences in our life. On average, men can be better at women at certain things, and vice versa, and then it can go beyond such a generalization down to certain types of men being better at things than other men, and the same with women. That's a fact of life whether you like it or not. We're not all made equal. We all have strengths and weaknesses.

Lol good for you, don't give a fuck mate, that's wonderful. I should hope not, this is the internet, after all. The problem with your argument is that you're implying I look at women like that. Do I feel I make a better protector, if need be? Yes. Do I feel as though I would rather provide and nurture the women in my life, that I should give them the opportunity to live an easier life than I? Sure I do. Did I state anywhere in those sentences that I feel women aren't capable of those things themselves? Nope. Of course, these penchants of my character are completely nailed down to my subconscious and what media has been telling me right?

Problematic element? Did you really just state that having a majority of DiD story lines and male protagonists rescuing scantily clad characters is a problematic element? Worth a look at? Well, if that is your firm belief, I sincerely hope that while you're taking a serious look at it, like the people who produced this video, that the world doesn't pass you by. Make my day and tell me there aren't more serious issues in our world/countries that warrant taking a more serious look at than Donkey Kong and Princess Peach... I'm preparing myself to have my head spontaneously explode on me.

Silencer, on 11 March 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

Illuyankas, on 11 March 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

Personally I don't mind being called a fucktard or something as long as the person doing it is honestly challenging my posts with facts and content. One day Assail will get there. One day. That said, calling me a girly man or whatever was a bit pathetic. *goes back to kitchen barefoot and pregnant, just the way Assail likes it*

Assail, on 11 March 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

It's fine really... everyone is guilty of jumping to person attacks when they disagree. I would say it's human nature lol. With that being said, don't feel as though you must edit these posts on my behalf (Admins ), I'm always up for a good laugh.

Good for you, you've both got thick skins. Funnily enough I don't give a flying fuck. The Discussion board guidelines are very clear and do not make exceptions for "If the other guy doesn't mind" or "If the other guy deserves it" - do you know why? Because making those kinds of exceptions makes everyone think the behaviour is acceptable, when it is not.
You will NOT personally attack each other. Each other's posts/ideas/opinions, fine. But not the other person. We put this shit in place because some people turned the religion forum into a slagging match about each other, and moreover some people take it, I dunno, personally, when they get called some very nasty things online. Go figure.



Illy, you especially are on shaky ground given your track record in this area. Next time, it will be a permanent ban, fyi. You've been warned.

Gotcha, I understand.

Edit: That comic was actually pretty funny though, thanks for the laugh

This post has been edited by Assail: 12 March 2013 - 06:01 AM

[D'rek]

Ornery Owl, on 12 March 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

Dolmen+, on 12 March 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

These Stats are a shock to me tbh. My cousin is the most "hardcore" girl gamer I know of, off thread. She plays the Sims and Farmville. I have never thought that things had progressed this far with almost half the gaming community being female (at least in the more developed parts of the world). In my social circle games are things you play with the guys on a chill night at home, never with the wife or the female friend community. I find that really unfortunate as I think its one more type of fun available to a family or group of friends. Its not a substitute for a great night out at the movies or even a great day playing soccer on the fields but I think its a great option to have.

I have only managed to get the wife to play fashion games and tetris. Not as bad as it sounds tbh but I wish there were games that catered to both our tastes. Like the survey says most gamers are in the thirty bracket. Meaning some are married and/or with kids. I think Sarkeesians documentaries push the Gaming industry to recognize the fact that they need to appeal to both sexes aaand the varied arrangements both parties may find themselves in.

And @ Worrywort: yes, despite my wording that is exactly what I was trying to say.

Yeah I can see why they would be surprising, although I can't say I was terribly surprised myself. I grew up playing games, admittedly they were usually my brother's games, because games were considered by the buyers (ie our parents) to be a boy's thing, even though we fought furiously over who got to use the consoles and all the rest. Admittedly my brother games a lot more than me and always has, but while I don't play as much, I still play a lot of different types of games. But I think we all buy (or bought) into the mentality that girls don't play videogames. I did, as a kid, and I was playing them! And while this is an assumption on my part, I guess the people making the games are like my parents and still think like that.

Statistically, though, there were quite fewer women/girls playing video games a decade ago, though. IMO, then facebook and smart phones happened. It may not have been seen as a "girl thing" before, so parents wouldn't buy consoles for their daughters, etc, but facebook and smart phone apps never had any such supply-delivery problems, and they became gateway games to the rest of what is available.

[D'rek]

Assail, on 12 March 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

Problematic element? Did you really just state that having a majority of DiD story lines and male protagonists rescuing scantily clad characters is a problematic element? Worth a look at? Well, if that is your firm belief, I sincerely hope that while you're taking a serious look at it, like the people who produced this video, that the world doesn't pass you by. Make my day and tell me there aren't more serious issues in our world/countries that warrant taking a more serious look at than Donkey Kong and Princess Peach... I'm preparing myself to have my head spontaneously explode on me.

I don't really want to reply to the rest of your post, but for the above I will point out that just like you can type and breathe at the same time, it is possible to have many social conversations and ideas at the same time.

[Obdigore]

D, on 12 March 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Assail, on 12 March 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

Problematic element? Did you really just state that having a majority of DiD story lines and male protagonists rescuing scantily clad characters is a problematic element? Worth a look at? Well, if that is your firm belief, I sincerely hope that while you're taking a serious look at it, like the people who produced this video, that the world doesn't pass you by. Make my day and tell me there aren't more serious issues in our world/countries that warrant taking a more serious look at than Donkey Kong and Princess Peach... I'm preparing myself to have my head spontaneously explode on me.

I don't really want to reply to the rest of your post, but for the above I will point out that just like you can type and breathe at the same time, it is possible to have many social conversations and ideas at the same time.

Oh come on D'rek. Women don't have time to play video games and you know it. With all the putting make up on and making themselves look pretty for men, and their kitchen duties, and taking care of the babies. Women can't be 'real gamers'. They clearly don't know how to play real video games but just play pseudo games (read: games women play) like Facebook games and The Sims and stuff. 'Real' gamers are corpulent, pimple-ridden, socially inept teenagers living in their parents basement, right?

[Assail]

D, on 12 March 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Assail, on 12 March 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

Problematic element? Did you really just state that having a majority of DiD story lines and male protagonists rescuing scantily clad characters is a problematic element? Worth a look at? Well, if that is your firm belief, I sincerely hope that while you're taking a serious look at it, like the people who produced this video, that the world doesn't pass you by. Make my day and tell me there aren't more serious issues in our world/countries that warrant taking a more serious look at than Donkey Kong and Princess Peach... I'm preparing myself to have my head spontaneously explode on me.

I don't really want to reply to the rest of your post, but for the above I will point out that just like you can type and breathe at the same time, it is possible to have many social conversations and ideas at the same time.

Noted. This still doesn't justify spending time on a trivial issue when there are a multitude of more pressing matters to be focused upon.

Obdigore, on 12 March 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

D, on 12 March 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Assail, on 12 March 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

Problematic element? Did you really just state that having a majority of DiD story lines and male protagonists rescuing scantily clad characters is a problematic element? Worth a look at? Well, if that is your firm belief, I sincerely hope that while you're taking a serious look at it, like the people who produced this video, that the world doesn't pass you by. Make my day and tell me there aren't more serious issues in our world/countries that warrant taking a more serious look at than Donkey Kong and Princess Peach... I'm preparing myself to have my head spontaneously explode on me.

I don't really want to reply to the rest of your post, but for the above I will point out that just like you can type and breathe at the same time, it is possible to have many social conversations and ideas at the same time.

Oh come on D'rek. Women don't have time to play video games and you know it. With all the putting make up on and making themselves look pretty for men, and their kitchen duties, and taking care of the babies. Women can't be 'real gamers'. They clearly don't know how to play real video games but just play pseudo games (read: games women play) like Facebook games and The Sims and stuff. 'Real' gamers are corpulent, pimple-ridden, socially inept teenagers living in their parents basement, right?

Overly sarcastic comments like this really don't provide anything to the discussion, and sadly it's a trend. With it being a trend it implies that it is something done on a majority basis... does that irk you that for once you might not be the little guy, the poor beat down minority with a chip on their shoulder, but a part of the great machine, the.... dun dun dun.... MAJORITY, Obdi?

This post has been edited by Assail: 12 March 2013 - 06:53 AM

[Obdigore]

Assail, on 12 March 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Overly sarcastic comments like this really don't provide anything to the discussion, and sadly it's a trend. With it being a trend it implies that it is something done on a majority basis... does that irk you that for once you might not be the little guy, the poor beat down minority with a chip on their shoulder, a part of the great machine, the.... dun dun dun.... MAJORITY, Obdi?

I think they add quite a bit to the conversation. It highlights the idiocy of previous generations and the literal battle that people have against both ingrained and traditional societal roles.

Do you think I'm joking that when you ask a majority of corporate executives about who plays games the response is 'acne-ridden teenagers'? Who do you really think is funding and approving the vast majority of games on the market right now? They are being directed by corporate interests, Activision and EA, generally. The only game I can think of that is honestly targeted towards women is The Sims, and that, iirc, only came around because some guy suggested that women might like playing with virtual dolls like the dolls they did when they were children. I mean are you fucking kidding me? Some women, and very few I might add, enjoy playing military shooters that are figuratively the oil industry of the gaming economy. Meanwhile co-op games are few and far between, and RPG's generally have a 'plot twist' where you go to save a 'helpless woman' because that is what the shiny hero does.

I'm also quite entertained that you seem to think that a white, male, middle class, first world citizen has some sort of experience with not being a 'majority' and that apparently I need chips on my shoulder to ridicule idiocy and call out against inherent and ingrained exclusion where and when I see it.

But I forget that the conservative mind generally cannot accept that other people can and do honestly see other things in other ways.

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 12 March 2013 - 07:00 AM

[Assail]

Obdigore, on 12 March 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Assail, on 12 March 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Overly sarcastic comments like this really don't provide anything to the discussion, and sadly it's a trend. With it being a trend it implies that it is something done on a majority basis... does that irk you that for once you might not be the little guy, the poor beat down minority with a chip on their shoulder, a part of the great machine, the.... dun dun dun.... MAJORITY, Obdi?

I think they add quite a bit to the conversation. It highlights the idiocy of previous generations and the literal battle that people have against both ingrained and traditional societal roles.

Do you think I'm joking that when you ask a majority of corporate executives about who plays games the response is 'acne-ridden teenagers'? Who do you really think is funding and approving the vast majority of games on the market right now? They are being directed by corporate interests, Activision and EA, generally. The only game I can think of that is honestly targeted towards women is The Sims, and that, iirc, only came around because some guy suggested that women might like playing with virtual dolls like the dolls they did when they were children. I mean are you fucking kidding me? Some women, and very few I might add, enjoy playing military shooters that are figuratively the oil industry of the gaming economy. Meanwhile co-op games are few and far between, and RPG's generally have a 'plot twist' where you go to save a 'helpless woman' because that is what the shiny hero does.

I'm also quite entertained that you seem to think that a white, male, middle class, first world citizen has some sort of experience with not being a 'majority' and that apparently I need chips on my shoulder to ridicule idiocy and call out against inherent and ingrained exclusion where and when I see it.

But I forget that the conservative mind generally cannot accept that other people can and do honestly see other things in other ways.

Stating this you're assuming because YOU think it idiocy, it therefore must be idiocy. This may be a harsh realization, but that's not the case. Don't get me wrong, things can always be improved, and things need to be fixed, but griping about something in the past is getting you.... where, exactly?

Don't go and make a sarcastic statement if you want it to be taken seriously. Easy, yeah?

Luckily for you, no I don't think you're joking; however, by catering to a specific audience these corporate interests are thereby disempowering women? Hell, if that's the case, L'oreal is disempowering cross-dressing men by not specifically catering to that specific consumer. So you're probably right, most games are as you've stated, and let's take a step forward and instead of bitching about it, what would you say would be a solution to this monumental, ground breaking issue? Would any changes REALLY have any effect on this apparent disempowerment? Probably. Fucking. Not.

You're ridiculing idiocy, but in the same message, utilizing sarcasm, a widely regarded tool of idiocy when incorporated into a supposed "discussion", while at the same time talking about ingrained exclusion in regards to a FICTIONAL GAME--What is this... I don't even....

Nothing is stopping women from playing it, and if they don't like the story arcs being utilized simply because a woman is not in a position of power in a FICTIONAL GAME, then they don't have to play it. Should we launch an initiative to change the general menu in regard to Mexican food because there are a bunch of people out there who don't like Mexican food and it's geared towards individuals who generally like that type of food? No. That would be silly. As silly as this entire point that video games are excluding women.

I completely accept that you can, and do see things in other ways. Does this mean that you're right 100% of the time because you're the minority? Nope, and vice versa for myself.

This post has been edited by Assail: 12 March 2013 - 07:20 AM

[Obdigore]

Assail, on 12 March 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

Obdigore, on 12 March 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Assail, on 12 March 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Overly sarcastic comments like this really don't provide anything to the discussion, and sadly it's a trend. With it being a trend it implies that it is something done on a majority basis... does that irk you that for once you might not be the little guy, the poor beat down minority with a chip on their shoulder, a part of the great machine, the.... dun dun dun.... MAJORITY, Obdi?

I think they add quite a bit to the conversation. It highlights the idiocy of previous generations and the literal battle that people have against both ingrained and traditional societal roles.

Do you think I'm joking that when you ask a majority of corporate executives about who plays games the response is 'acne-ridden teenagers'? Who do you really think is funding and approving the vast majority of games on the market right now? They are being directed by corporate interests, Activision and EA, generally. The only game I can think of that is honestly targeted towards women is The Sims, and that, iirc, only came around because some guy suggested that women might like playing with virtual dolls like the dolls they did when they were children. I mean are you fucking kidding me? Some women, and very few I might add, enjoy playing military shooters that are figuratively the oil industry of the gaming economy. Meanwhile co-op games are few and far between, and RPG's generally have a 'plot twist' where you go to save a 'helpless woman' because that is what the shiny hero does.

I'm also quite entertained that you seem to think that a white, male, middle class, first world citizen has some sort of experience with not being a 'majority' and that apparently I need chips on my shoulder to ridicule idiocy and call out against inherent and ingrained exclusion where and when I see it.

But I forget that the conservative mind generally cannot accept that other people can and do honestly see other things in other ways.

Stating this you're assuming because YOU think it idiocy, it therefore must be idiocy. This may be a harsh realization, but that's not the case. Don't get me wrong, things can always be improved, and things need to be fixed, but griping about something in the past is getting you.... where, exactly?

Don't go and make a sarcastic statement if you want it to be taken seriously. Easy, yeah?

Luckily for you, no I don't think you're joking; however, by catering to a specific audience these corporate interests are thereby disempowering women? Hell, if that's the case, L'oreal is disempowering cross-dressing men by not specifically catering to that specific consumer. So you're probably right, most games are as you've stated, and let's take a step forward and instead of bitching about it, what would you say would be a solution to this monumental, ground breaking issue? Would any changes REALLY have any effect on this apparent disempowerment? Probably. Fucking. Not.

You're ridiculing idiocy, but in the same message, utilizing sarcasm, a widely regarded tool of idiocy when incorporated into a supposed "discussion", while at the same time talking about ingrained exclusion in regards to a fictional GAME. Nothing is stopping women from playing it, and if they don't like the story arcs being utilized simply because a woman is not in a position of power in a FICTIONAL GAME, then they don't have to play it. Should we launch an initiative to change the general menu in regard to Mexican food because there are a bunch of power out there who don't like Mexican food and it's geared towards individuals who generally like that type of food? No. That would be silly. As silly as this entire point that video games are excluding women.

I completely accept that you can, and do see things in other ways. Does this mean that you're right 100% of the time because you're the minority? Nope, and vice versa for myself.

Oh look, nothing but strawmen and playing the powerless card. 'I'm not complaining about this because there is nothing I can do!'. And then you start claiming everyone who disagrees with you or voices an opinion is an idiot, and then more hyperbole.

This is like arguing with a 9 year old who is sticking her fingers in her ears and screaming 'I'm right!'.

Ignore the facts that in a large majority of video games, women are seen as the 'lesser' sex. Ignore that they are commonly needing to be saved. Ignore the fact that our entire fucking society is still struggling with this issue. Ignore the fact that around half the people playing video games are women.

Don't ignore this fact: The market does bend to the consumer. Supply and Demand is sort of a thing and, just for shits and giggles, if enough people bitch about average white knight RPG's and silly save-the-poor-useless-fucktoy tropes, perhaps we can get good, fresh storylines. Perhaps we can agree that society shapes entertainment and entertainment in turn shapes society. Perhaps if we can get something close to equality in a form of entertainment that is quickly becoming the choice of the generation coming to power and the following generations, perhaps society will be a little better.

Or you can go back to 'being a man' and working on the engine of your Jeep, because you have to do 'manly' stuff because you are apparently so unsure about your sexuality that if society doesn't reinforce what you do as 'manly' then you don't know how to be 'manly'. And a man. But not a mans man. Because Mens Men are gay. And we can't have that, right?

[Assail]

Obdigore, on 12 March 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Assail, on 12 March 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

Obdigore, on 12 March 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Assail, on 12 March 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Overly sarcastic comments like this really don't provide anything to the discussion, and sadly it's a trend. With it being a trend it implies that it is something done on a majority basis... does that irk you that for once you might not be the little guy, the poor beat down minority with a chip on their shoulder, a part of the great machine, the.... dun dun dun.... MAJORITY, Obdi?

I think they add quite a bit to the conversation. It highlights the idiocy of previous generations and the literal battle that people have against both ingrained and traditional societal roles.

Do you think I'm joking that when you ask a majority of corporate executives about who plays games the response is 'acne-ridden teenagers'? Who do you really think is funding and approving the vast majority of games on the market right now? They are being directed by corporate interests, Activision and EA, generally. The only game I can think of that is honestly targeted towards women is The Sims, and that, iirc, only came around because some guy suggested that women might like playing with virtual dolls like the dolls they did when they were children. I mean are you fucking kidding me? Some women, and very few I might add, enjoy playing military shooters that are figuratively the oil industry of the gaming economy. Meanwhile co-op games are few and far between, and RPG's generally have a 'plot twist' where you go to save a 'helpless woman' because that is what the shiny hero does.

I'm also quite entertained that you seem to think that a white, male, middle class, first world citizen has some sort of experience with not being a 'majority' and that apparently I need chips on my shoulder to ridicule idiocy and call out against inherent and ingrained exclusion where and when I see it.

But I forget that the conservative mind generally cannot accept that other people can and do honestly see other things in other ways.

Stating this you're assuming because YOU think it idiocy, it therefore must be idiocy. This may be a harsh realization, but that's not the case. Don't get me wrong, things can always be improved, and things need to be fixed, but griping about something in the past is getting you.... where, exactly?

Don't go and make a sarcastic statement if you want it to be taken seriously. Easy, yeah?

Luckily for you, no I don't think you're joking; however, by catering to a specific audience these corporate interests are thereby disempowering women? Hell, if that's the case, L'oreal is disempowering cross-dressing men by not specifically catering to that specific consumer. So you're probably right, most games are as you've stated, and let's take a step forward and instead of bitching about it, what would you say would be a solution to this monumental, ground breaking issue? Would any changes REALLY have any effect on this apparent disempowerment? Probably. Fucking. Not.

You're ridiculing idiocy, but in the same message, utilizing sarcasm, a widely regarded tool of idiocy when incorporated into a supposed "discussion", while at the same time talking about ingrained exclusion in regards to a fictional GAME. Nothing is stopping women from playing it, and if they don't like the story arcs being utilized simply because a woman is not in a position of power in a FICTIONAL GAME, then they don't have to play it. Should we launch an initiative to change the general menu in regard to Mexican food because there are a bunch of power out there who don't like Mexican food and it's geared towards individuals who generally like that type of food? No. That would be silly. As silly as this entire point that video games are excluding women.

I completely accept that you can, and do see things in other ways. Does this mean that you're right 100% of the time because you're the minority? Nope, and vice versa for myself.

Oh look, nothing but strawmen and playing the powerless card. 'I'm not complaining about this because there is nothing I can do!'. And then you start claiming everyone who disagrees with you or voices an opinion is an idiot, and then more hyperbole.

This is like arguing with a 9 year old who is sticking her fingers in her ears and screaming 'I'm right!'.

Ignore the facts that in a large majority of video games, women are seen as the 'lesser' sex. Ignore that they are commonly needing to be saved. Ignore the fact that our entire fucking society is still struggling with this issue. Ignore the fact that around half the people playing video games are women.

Don't ignore this fact: The market does bend to the consumer. Supply and Demand is sort of a thing and, just for shits and giggles, if enough people bitch about average white knight RPG's and silly save-the-poor-useless-fucktoy tropes, perhaps we can get good, fresh storylines. Perhaps we can agree that society shapes entertainment and entertainment in turn shapes society. Perhaps if we can get something close to equality in a form of entertainment that is quickly becoming the choice of the generation coming to power and the following generations, perhaps society will be a little better.

Or you can go back to 'being a man' and working on the engine of your Jeep, because you have to do 'manly' stuff because you are apparently so unsure about your sexuality that if society doesn't reinforce what you do as 'manly' then you don't know how to be 'manly'. And a man. But not a mans man. Because Mens Men are gay. And we can't have that, right?

Saying that I have straw men within my points would be saying that I'm misrepresenting your argument. I wouldn't say that I'm misrepresenting your argument at all. I'm taking what you're saying and putting it in a similar situation hopefully to get it through to you that your point is stupid. I never said that there was nothing we couldn't do lol. I was saying that this is not an issue worth doing anything about, because I believe it presents next to nothing as far as detriment to our society goes.

Oh, you're completely right. I don't agree with you, nor you with I, so I must be the one portrayed as "sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming that they're right"? You realize you just essentially labeled yourself with that same... well.. label.

Like I said to Illy earlier, if you're honestly looking at fictional character within a game, and basing your real world opinions off of them, you probably aren't sound of mind. Or would you say otherwise? So WHAT if women need to be saved in games? There is zero correlation between this and sexism within society.

I'm not ignoring that fact. The customer will always get what they want, and they're always right. I fail to understand how you think something that is obviously a deep-rooted opinion (i.e. sexism) is going to be ousted by removing an age-old story arc that is completely harmless in it's design. You have some serious amounts of optimism if you really think that is going to be the linchpin that changes society.

Oh I'll always be a man, and if it makes you jelly (Probably not), I also just gone done rebuilding my buddies 1970 MGB GT with a chevy 350 small block in it because I enjoy working on cars, not because I'm insecure in my sexuality. Do you need someone to teach you how to change the oil and tires, Obdi? I hear a cry for attention in this last little jab at me hahaha

[Obdigore]

Assail, on 12 March 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

Obdigore, on 12 March 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Assail, on 12 March 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

Obdigore, on 12 March 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Assail, on 12 March 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Overly sarcastic comments like this really don't provide anything to the discussion, and sadly it's a trend. With it being a trend it implies that it is something done on a majority basis... does that irk you that for once you might not be the little guy, the poor beat down minority with a chip on their shoulder, a part of the great machine, the.... dun dun dun.... MAJORITY, Obdi?

I think they add quite a bit to the conversation. It highlights the idiocy of previous generations and the literal battle that people have against both ingrained and traditional societal roles.

Do you think I'm joking that when you ask a majority of corporate executives about who plays games the response is 'acne-ridden teenagers'? Who do you really think is funding and approving the vast majority of games on the market right now? They are being directed by corporate interests, Activision and EA, generally. The only game I can think of that is honestly targeted towards women is The Sims, and that, iirc, only came around because some guy suggested that women might like playing with virtual dolls like the dolls they did when they were children. I mean are you fucking kidding me? Some women, and very few I might add, enjoy playing military shooters that are figuratively the oil industry of the gaming economy. Meanwhile co-op games are few and far between, and RPG's generally have a 'plot twist' where you go to save a 'helpless woman' because that is what the shiny hero does.

I'm also quite entertained that you seem to think that a white, male, middle class, first world citizen has some sort of experience with not being a 'majority' and that apparently I need chips on my shoulder to ridicule idiocy and call out against inherent and ingrained exclusion where and when I see it.

But I forget that the conservative mind generally cannot accept that other people can and do honestly see other things in other ways.

Stating this you're assuming because YOU think it idiocy, it therefore must be idiocy. This may be a harsh realization, but that's not the case. Don't get me wrong, things can always be improved, and things need to be fixed, but griping about something in the past is getting you.... where, exactly?

Don't go and make a sarcastic statement if you want it to be taken seriously. Easy, yeah?

Luckily for you, no I don't think you're joking; however, by catering to a specific audience these corporate interests are thereby disempowering women? Hell, if that's the case, L'oreal is disempowering cross-dressing men by not specifically catering to that specific consumer. So you're probably right, most games are as you've stated, and let's take a step forward and instead of bitching about it, what would you say would be a solution to this monumental, ground breaking issue? Would any changes REALLY have any effect on this apparent disempowerment? Probably. Fucking. Not.

You're ridiculing idiocy, but in the same message, utilizing sarcasm, a widely regarded tool of idiocy when incorporated into a supposed "discussion", while at the same time talking about ingrained exclusion in regards to a fictional GAME. Nothing is stopping women from playing it, and if they don't like the story arcs being utilized simply because a woman is not in a position of power in a FICTIONAL GAME, then they don't have to play it. Should we launch an initiative to change the general menu in regard to Mexican food because there are a bunch of power out there who don't like Mexican food and it's geared towards individuals who generally like that type of food? No. That would be silly. As silly as this entire point that video games are excluding women.

I completely accept that you can, and do see things in other ways. Does this mean that you're right 100% of the time because you're the minority? Nope, and vice versa for myself.

Oh look, nothing but strawmen and playing the powerless card. 'I'm not complaining about this because there is nothing I can do!'. And then you start claiming everyone who disagrees with you or voices an opinion is an idiot, and then more hyperbole.

This is like arguing with a 9 year old who is sticking her fingers in her ears and screaming 'I'm right!'.

Ignore the facts that in a large majority of video games, women are seen as the 'lesser' sex. Ignore that they are commonly needing to be saved. Ignore the fact that our entire fucking society is still struggling with this issue. Ignore the fact that around half the people playing video games are women.

Don't ignore this fact: The market does bend to the consumer. Supply and Demand is sort of a thing and, just for shits and giggles, if enough people bitch about average white knight RPG's and silly save-the-poor-useless-fucktoy tropes, perhaps we can get good, fresh storylines. Perhaps we can agree that society shapes entertainment and entertainment in turn shapes society. Perhaps if we can get something close to equality in a form of entertainment that is quickly becoming the choice of the generation coming to power and the following generations, perhaps society will be a little better.

Or you can go back to 'being a man' and working on the engine of your Jeep, because you have to do 'manly' stuff because you are apparently so unsure about your sexuality that if society doesn't reinforce what you do as 'manly' then you don't know how to be 'manly'. And a man. But not a mans man. Because Mens Men are gay. And we can't have that, right?

Saying that I have straw men within my points would be saying that I'm misrepresenting your argument. I wouldn't say that I'm misrepresenting your argument at all. I'm taking what you're saying and putting it in a similar situation hopefully to get it through to you that your point is stupid. I never said that there was nothing we couldn't do lol. I was saying that this is not an issue worth doing anything about, because I believe it presents next to nothing as far as detriment to our society goes.

Oh, you're completely right. I don't agree with you, nor you with I, so I must be the one portrayed as "sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming that they're right"? You realize you just essentially labeled yourself with that same... well.. label.

Like I said to Illy earlier, if you're honestly looking at fictional character within a game, and basing your real world opinions off of them, you probably aren't sound of mind. Or would you say otherwise? So WHAT if women need to be saved in games? There is zero correlation between this and sexism within society.

I'm not ignoring that fact. The customer will always get what they want, and they're always right. I fail to understand how you think something that is obviously a deep-rooted opinion (i.e. sexism) is going to be ousted by removing an age-old story arc that is completely harmless in it's design. You have some serious amounts of optimism if you really think that is going to be the linchpin that changes society.

Oh I'll always be a man, and if it makes you jelly (Probably not), I also just gone done rebuilding my buddies 1970 MGB GT with a chevy 350 small block in it because I enjoy working on cars, not because I'm insecure in my sexuality. Do you need someone to teach you how to change the oil and tires, Obdi? I hear a cry for attention in this last little jab at me hahaha

You don't believe that having conservative views reinforced by a conservative institution that you work at might effect the way you think at all, iirc. I guess I forget why I would even try to debate anything with you when your entire response is 'NO U!'.

I also see you falling for strawman fallicies, perfect solution fallacies, and your personal conclusion that anything traditional is harmless.

I would suggest maybe you should educate yourself into how Human brains work, but you will, I'm sure, just suggest 'NO U!' in a couple more words, so whatever.

edit -> Also, if you don't think that video games effect how you think, enjoy a woman smarter than you or I proving you wrong.
http://www.youtube.c...d&v=FktsFcooIG8

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 12 March 2013 - 08:24 AM

[Morgoth]

I've yet to see any numbers showing, even implying, that the customers particularly want games with the sort of old fashioned male/female seperation that seem to be at the heart of this discussion.

Several posters here have pointed towards the argument that such things sell, or that they fulfill a demand which really is all the studioes should be going for. Leaving behind for a moment the whole argument about personal responsibility and the moral cowardice inherent in the profit for shareholders position, what do you base this claim that the sort of stories/presentations in question sell better?

I'd argue that Mass Effect fulfills very few of the tropes we've been discussing, and yet those games sold massively well. The big seller these days is Tomb Raider, hardly a story where women have no agency.

To me it seems that the games which still fall into the old, boring and quite questionable tropes do so not because they have been structured that way for marketing purposes, but because the game industry in many ways lack a big selection of quality writers. What we see, I think, is a mix of ineptitude and lazyness. It's easy to build a story of a hero saving a damsel in distress. We've encoutnered thousands of those through our lives. It requires no skill to make another.

As for character design, which is one of my pet peeves, I think that's mainly a result of the sort of people whom are hired to do character design, combined -again- with the lack of skill among the writers. Do you buy games because it contains women in chain mail bikinies? Do anyone? I'm pretty sure the sales of Dead or Alive beach vollyball, or whatever it was called, speaks for itself.

This post has been edited by Morgoth: 12 March 2013 - 08:34 AM

[worry]

I agree with that point. If you have a glut of games that feature this trope, and the best of these games are very popular (Mario Bros, Zelda, etc.), that doesn't necessarily follow that the trope resonates. I mean, you have all the worse games with the same trope that didn't sell, for one, and they just go unnoticed. The correlation you're seeing might be rooted in fallacy. And repeating that trope might indeed come down, at least in part, to laziness at the executive and creative levels. It's not so different from a TV exec ordering up a dozen Seinfeld clones, and then most fail, but the exec sees that Friends is a hit, and orders up a dozen Friends clones, and so on. But also like I said a few posts back, if you offer up a game that's mostly awesome and features some problematic content, it may very well get popular, but its popularity isn't necessarily an endorsement of 100% of its content.

[Macros]

I've sort of been keeping up with this thread.

whilst the pissing match between assail, illy and obikdegore is entertaining it hasn't actually progessed anywhere in terms of a debate


i think the problem lies in the rhetoric more than anything, its hard to take any argument seriously when presented as a sarcastic diatribe.

so, Assail, what I think (could be wrong) they are trying to get accross to you is that your attitude of "people who are influenced by games a idiots and or need help" is incredibly niave. Media influences your outlook on life wether you like it or not. You might bot think it, or realise it, but you are bombarded daily with messages of how you should look, act, feel etc, and like it or bot, on some level that sticks in. Why has there never been a woman president? Its a mans job in most (i cant think of many that don't) medias portrayals, poor choice of analogy I know but its lunch time, I'm hungry and I'm on my phone. What I'm angling at is you have to accept that media influences peoples perspectives and opinions wether they will it or no, so yes, having a medium that constantly reinfor es the idea that women are flighty creatures who need rescueing by. burly men is a problem.
someone has made an effort to study the prblem in depth, and while its not world.hunger its still an issue and you have to accept that you suggesting anyone who is annoyed by it is stupid is offensive to those people, and as such they will react.angrily

[cerveza_fiesta]

Dolmen+, on 12 March 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

Ornery Owl, on 11 March 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

cerveza_fiesta, on 11 March 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

To start, I agree in principle that women in video games could be portrayed in a less objectified, less sexualized, more equal light.

Dolmen+, on 11 March 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

I don't think it makes sense to try "balance" the market with an influx of female characters that try right the wrongs of their male counterparts by being just as strong, fast and stoic. There should be differences. The tough girl shouldn't come across as a tough guy that got born female. she should come across as a woman with all the best of the gender adding to who she is as a hero.

This sums up my feelings on the issue neatly. Giving a choice between a male and female lead is a good start (as with ME series) and it's cool that they've taken the time to put such a choice into a popular video game, but Dolmen is right that it isn't enough. The FemShep and SirShep stories are essentially identical save the romantic options and choice of gender is largely irrelevant in the arc of the storyline. To be truly equal, ME should have had 2 very different storylines, one in which each gender approaches situations from a unique perspective, even if the eventual conclusion was similar.

That said, I tend to agree to an extent with Assail, in that we might read too much into video game companies' intentions. When it comes down to it, their goal is to make money, and there are 2 factors I see related to moneymaking that compete directly with truly gender-balanced video game production:

• There is an existing largely-male market, and it only makes good business sense to pander to one's biggest market first and foremost before trying to appeal to newer/smaller markets.
• Studios are always on a deadline, and struggle to fit meaningful storyline content into a compelling game without cost overruns in development. Under such pressures it is very convenient to avoid extensive backstory through the use of widely-known clichés - especially ones that lend themselves to the action-oriented gaming environment.

The first factor unfortunately comes with the baggage of DIDs and heavily sexualized female video game characters. Companies know sex sells to a young male audience and will continue to use that as a marketing device until it doesn't work anymore. The second factor justifies the choice of DID since it fits nicely with a goal/action-oriented video game mechanic. If you look at the second factor a level deeper, the studio is also spared the expense of explaining a male character's motivations for saving the DID, and the reason why the female was the one captured instead of the male, AND the reason why the villain is capturing the female to motivate the protagonist. It's just a storyline that makes sense to anyone that ever read a book or watched a movie, and it can be exploited to save effort. What's worse, swapping gender roles within the DID cliché just *feels* wrong in many contexts (eg. medieval fantasy) and requires a lot of effort to convince the consumer that it isn't just a token effort to appease a feminist audience.

Not to say this is what the studios *should* all be doing, or that there are no other options for developers, but the two factors I describe are strong motivators for a production studio and therefore are very difficult to overcome by anyone hoping for change. As with so many other contentious "status-quo vs. progressive approach" issues, those wishing for a new deal in video game gender equality need to identify economic factors that make their views viable, otherwise the industry will continue to ignore their point of view. The industry clearly has the formula figured out for the current audience (as evidenced by the billions in existing sales), and I'm sure would be happy to shift their stance if it opened up new markets without sacrificing the current one.

Anyways, I'm interested to follow Sarkeesian's commentary and I hope she comes up with some tangible solutions in the end. Even if she doesn't it's a useful exercise to explore and generate awareness on the issue of video game gender equality so that other more solution-oriented individuals might take up the cause. That's the nature of research...each installment building on the last until a greater problem is solved. So to Assail's comment on it being a waste of time, I wholeheartedly disagree.

The market is already in existence though.

2012 Sales, Demographic and Usage Data: Essential Facts about the Computer and Video Game Industry

Women make up 47% of gamers. 25% of console players. 39% of PC players.48% of game purchasers.
That's a pretty significant "new market".

I'll give that it's a relatively recent development (maybe) but this didn't happen overnight.

These Stats are a shock to me tbh. My cousin is the most "hardcore" girl gamer I know of, off thread. She plays the Sims and Farmville. I have never thought that things had progressed this far with almost half the gaming community being female (at least in the more developed parts of the world). In my social circle games are things you play with the guys on a chill night at home, never with the wife or the female friend community. I find that really unfortunate as I think its one more type of fun available to a family or group of friends. Its not a substitute for a great night out at the movies or even a great day playing soccer on the fields but I think its a great option to have.

I have only managed to get the wife to play fashion games and tetris. Not as bad as it sounds tbh but I wish there were games that catered to both our tastes. Like the survey says most gamers are in the thirty bracket. Meaning some are married and/or with kids. I think Sarkeesians documentaries push the Gaming industry to recognize the fact that they need to appeal to both sexes aaand the varied arrangements both parties may find themselves in.

Those numbers surprise me too...but I think you need to go a bit deeper before you can say "it's a market".

Sure there are 48% female game purchasers. But does the aggregate statistic simply represent units sold, or dollars spent, or percent of people polled who say "I purchase games"? Your source doesn't specify but it is a very important detail to a game studio trying to make money. If the studio specializes in (for example) action RPG games, chances are they are pandering to the male gamer population. I find it *really* hard to believe that studio would deliberately ignore 48% of game buyers unless those game buyers weren't buying the types of games the studio produces. You know what I mean? If, using dolmen's example, those female gamers are primarily interested in Tetris, farmville and mobile games, then that constitutes a massive risk for the studio to try and expand their specialization into the female market. It isn't necessarily lazy developers...it's responsibility to shareholders and good business practice.

Think of Venn diagrams. If the circle of "female gamers" and the circle of "female gamers who play action RPGs" have little or no overlapping area, then what use is there for a studio in pandering to a female audience? These guys spend millions on market research every year with focus groups, polling and all that stuff. I just can't accept that such an obvious chunk of the maket was somehow "missed" by all of the researchers all this time. It doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying the stats are outright wrong, just trying to dispel the notion that the female gamer and the male gamer are functionally equivalent from a business perspective.

Morgoth, on 12 March 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

I've yet to see any numbers showing, even implying, that the customers particularly want games with the sort of old fashioned male/female seperation that seem to be at the heart of this discussion.

I think the billions in sales for the video game industry is evidence in and of itself that what they're doing *in general* sells. Whether gamers have a genuine desire for something other than the male/female inequality model of DID games is up for debate and research I think....but that's what we're doing here.

Morgoth, on 12 March 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Several posters here have pointed towards the argument that such things sell, or that they fulfill a demand which really is all the studioes should be going for. Leaving behind for a moment the whole argument about personal responsibility and the moral cowardice inherent in the profit for shareholders position, what do you base this claim that the sort of stories/presentations in question sell better?

I don't say they sell better, I say they obviously sell to an acceptable extent or else we wouldn't have a game industry at all. Maybe if the entire industry made a collective shift toward more gender balanced games they would make even more money...who can tell? Until it happens we won't know, and businesses are risk adverse, so it'll be tough to convince them of a better way. This is why I said that I hope Sarkeesian or her contemporaries can come up with some economic factors to support her research. I'd love to see more balanced and inclusive game content myself...but the business guys will want to see a clear economic benefit.

Also, regarding the "personal responsibility and moral cowardice" point, I think you have to be very careful there. Video games are creative content in the same way movies, books and TV shows are. The creators have free license within the confines of the law to do whatever the hell they please, and if the audience buys it then so much the better for them. Saying owners of game studios somehow have a moral obligation or responsibility to promote gender equality is like saying authors and movie producers do too. Does moral obligation for promotion of gender equality now all of a sudden mean romance novel publishers need to publish equal amounts of stories featuring male leads? Do romantic comedy movie producers need to put in equal parts of dick jokes with sentimental moments to appease both genders? Do action movie producers need to start plopping a couple of tough-girl characters in every unit of commandos? Maybe the audience would enjoy such things and those producers are free to explore the options, but saying they have a moral responsibility to explore gender-equality options is a bit of a stretch.

I think the more sensible thing is to accept the fact that male and female content consumption habits are fundamentally unequal (the movie industry realized this a loooooooong time ago), and have producers making games tailored for female sensibilities and producers making games tailored for male sensibilities. Where it makes sense, have game content that features gender equality. The DID doesn't have to go away, because dudes like the idea of saving a DID from danger (and probably always will). If guys like that they should be able to consume that, and studios should be free to pander to that customer base.

Morgoth, on 12 March 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

As for character design, which is one of my pet peeves, I think that's mainly a result of the sort of people whom are hired to do character design, combined -again- with the lack of skill among the writers. Do you buy games because it contains women in chain mail bikinies? Do anyone? I'm pretty sure the sales of Dead or Alive beach vollyball, or whatever it was called, speaks for itself.

Agreed here. Unnecessary oversexualization of female characters when there is no link to the game's plot is a cheap trick, and everyone realizes it. It is similar to using "booth bunnies" at a tradeshow. It can't be the only thing keeping people around and obviously there has to be a product of some value backing the display, but despite its cheapness it has worked well in the past. The world is changing however, views on women are changing, and I think it much more reasonable to point out moral shortcomings of developers in regards to character design. The scantily clad 1D female character should be a thing of the past IMO. It's not how men people in the 1st world view women anymore and developers would do well to abandon the stereotype.

[Tapper]

Assail, on 12 March 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

D, on 12 March 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Assail, on 12 March 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

Problematic element? Did you really just state that having a majority of DiD story lines and male protagonists rescuing scantily clad characters is a problematic element? Worth a look at? Well, if that is your firm belief, I sincerely hope that while you're taking a serious look at it, like the people who produced this video, that the world doesn't pass you by. Make my day and tell me there aren't more serious issues in our world/countries that warrant taking a more serious look at than Donkey Kong and Princess Peach... I'm preparing myself to have my head spontaneously explode on me.

I don't really want to reply to the rest of your post, but for the above I will point out that just like you can type and breathe at the same time, it is possible to have many social conversations and ideas at the same time.

Noted. This still doesn't justify spending time on a trivial issue when there are a multitude of more pressing matters to be focused upon.

So why are you then so dominantly present in this topic, Assail, if you think there are clearly better things to spend your time and thoughts on?

To make it more than an ironic statement: I'd say female portrayal/ equality (whether in art, society or whatever) is a pretty important thing. It affects half the population and it in turn creates expectations and life patterns for future adults. Of course gaming is a small segment of this, and it will not terribly distort a smart, open minded confident person's world views. But there is no denial that it does.
And not everyone is a smart, open minded, self confident person.

In that way, it is the same as the fashion industry and its beauty hallmarks that encourage anorexia in certain young people, mostly women. Or the bullying of those who do not fit the stereotype.

Do you know why Danica Patrick is a phenomenon rather than just a pretty good race driver, or why the lady who applied as a punter on a regional NFL combine got a shitload of attention? Because they broke a gender pattern and proved women want to participate in traditionally 'male' pastimes. And Patrick is pretty damned good at it, as well, showing there is a basis for this.

Basically, if you are going to invent a fantasy world, what's wrong with making it a fantasy world that's attractive to female gamers, as well? Furthermore, a *better* representation of women will lure female gamers in. Which means more revenue, too.

[Tapper]

cerveza_fiesta, on 12 March 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Agreed here. Unnecessary oversexualization of female characters when there is no link to the game's plot is a cheap trick, and everyone realizes it. It is similar to using "booth bunnies" at a tradeshow. It can't be the only thing keeping people around and obviously there has to be a product of some value backing the display, but despite its cheapness it has worked well in the past. The world is changing however, views on women are changing, and I think it much more reasonable to point out moral shortcomings of developers in regards to character design. The scantily clad 1D female character should be a thing of the past IMO. It's not how men people in the 1st world view women anymore and developers would do well to abandon the stereotype.

Y'know, I thought the same. And then I saw the sheer amount of body-mods (usually wit no censorship of the private parts and oversized boobs) and see through/ sexy armors that are downloadable, community-made mods for Skyrim. And they hit pretty good download numbers, too. The funny thing is that Skyrim is an intelligent game with a storyline that's actually fairly equal in gender portrayal as both males and females share jobs, function as antagonists, shopkeepers, smiths, et cetera.

EDIT: so it seems there is at the least a part of the gaming base that seeks to introduce sexualisation/ one dimensional portrayal of women as sexual objects/ pin ups into their games.
That's pretty disturbing and shows that even if developers move on, part of their fan base doesn't, sadly.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 12 March 2013 - 02:09 PM

[cerveza_fiesta]

Tapper, on 12 March 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

cerveza_fiesta, on 12 March 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Agreed here. Unnecessary oversexualization of female characters when there is no link to the game's plot is a cheap trick, and everyone realizes it. It is similar to using "booth bunnies" at a tradeshow. It can't be the only thing keeping people around and obviously there has to be a product of some value backing the display, but despite its cheapness it has worked well in the past. The world is changing however, views on women are changing, and I think it much more reasonable to point out moral shortcomings of developers in regards to character design. The scantily clad 1D female character should be a thing of the past IMO. It's not how men people in the 1st world view women anymore and developers would do well to abandon the stereotype.

Y'know, I thought the same. And then I saw the sheer amount of body-mods (usually wit no censorship of the private parts and oversized boobs) and see through/ sexy armors that are downloadable, community-made mods for Skyrim. And they hit pretty good download numbers, too. The funny thing is that Skyrim is an intelligent game with a storyline that's actually fairly equal in gender portrayal as both males and females share jobs, function as antagonists, shopkeepers, smiths, et cetera.

EDIT: so it seems there is at the least a part of the gaming base that seeks to introduce sexualisation/ one dimensional portrayal of women as sexual objects/ pin ups into their games.
That's pretty disturbing and shows that even if developers move on, part of their fan base doesn't, sadly.

Yes, there will always be a segment that wants pin-ups in video games and will go to great lengths to modify games to satisfy the desire. Hell, I did it back when the "NudeRaider" mod came out for Tomb Raider 1.....but then again I was like 15 years old and CGI boobs were the best I could do - sue me.

The fact that the segment exists shouldn't deter those wanting to make a difference however. Since it's a self-serving community, I say let them do their thing. You're not going to stop it anyway, so as long as the original game content is making a shift from ridiculously dressed, weak and idiotic female characters then at least everyone else is better off.

[Kanubis]

Regarding the market share, as someone who played MMOs a lot I think it was a huge gateway genre for a lot of women to get in to gaming.

As far back as 2005 my WoW guild was about 35-40% female, and any guild I've joined since has had a similar ratio (I can only judge the guilds themselves since you obviously can't tell what the randoms running around are.) Many of those women I was guilded with were in to gaming beyond MMOs or were at least getting in to it.