[Khellendros]

Silencer, on 19 January 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

I don't think anyone is claiming definitive proof - it's just vastly more likely that 1) a scum would take that kind of risk, and 2) they wouldn't be modkilled for it. Of course, my argument is that, actually, the Dude WAS fully cognizant of the rules, and was pushing his luck in order to try and control the thread like a boss. It's a brilliant play by scum. It's a horrific play by Town; and with no way to verify the claim as we normally would be able to, leaving the Dude alive is just begging for the WIFOM to come bite us in the ass later.

Hmm, it's clearly NOT a brilliant play by scum if the Dude is that, as he's all but getting lynched. I would argue that it's a stupid play no matter what role you are - as if the rules had been paid attention to, you would have known that what happened with Bubba coming out was inevitable.

If the Dude is scum, he is far more likely in my opinion to be a symp than a killer. I do think we should take a look and see if anyone stands out as the most likely people he might be protecting/deflecting from.

Silencer, on 19 January 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

Yeah, the pileup on this one has been startlingly swift. I guess people are a bit frustrated at the outcome of Day One (what with the board outage and all), but it's still overkill. Though I'm hurt that you'd think I would just *say* something like that to seem more inno. In all seriousness, the pileon is concerning, no doubt.

I haven't looked into the NK too hard - there's WIFOM enough on this thread already. But probing his interactions on day one is probably worthwhile, even if I can't really bring myself to comb back over that madness just yet. XD

Yeah, you're right that part of the pile-on at least could be frustration from day 1. I still think it looks somewhat dodgy though.


Here's a sudden thought which has just occurred to me:

- The Dude is a symp.

- HO is a killer.

The Dude makes a play which he thinks will be identified as most likely symp play, and sacrifices himself to all but CI HiddenOne for the rest of the game. High-risk maybe, but if that really is the strategy, then you could say it's working perfectly right now. Not sure how likely it could be, but I think it is something else to keep in mind.


I will look through the Dude's (and Gnaw's) posts at some point today.

[Khellendros]

HiddenOne, on 19 January 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

Khellendros, on 19 January 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

HiddenOne, on 19 January 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

I never have any problem voting for somebody who fake-reveals against me, Khell - and I don't think you would either.

Of course not, but the rest of us have no way of knowing that even if Dude is lynched. With the no CF, your voting could just as easily be interpreted as gratefully jumping on a speeding lynch train, and afterwards pronouncing to all and sundry how you're now CI because the Dude is so obviously scum.


Disclaimer: I am making no actual judgement one way or the other right now, so yes HO, you could just as easily be being set up, but you're not doing putting in any great effort of convincing us of that - simply jumping on the argument which Silencer proposed. In this game in particular, the people in the spotlight need to work all the harder to convince why we should vote for someone other than them.

I am aware of that first part, and I never pronounce myself CI - I think something like that would rely on the judgement of everyone else.

I can't help it that Silencer's points are valid. Any further speculation is useless on Dude's motivations and fuel WIFOM. Until this is resolved, my opinions are somewhat compromised in the public domain since I have been falsely named scum.

And how exactly do you expect this to be resolved? With the Dude's lynch? That won't resolve anything in the immediate term, and you will still have questions marks hovering over your name. So it's up to you to do what you can to de-compromise your opinions, rather than simply following Silencer.

[Silencer]

Khellendros, on 19 January 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

Silencer, on 19 January 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

I don't think anyone is claiming definitive proof - it's just vastly more likely that 1) a scum would take that kind of risk, and 2) they wouldn't be modkilled for it. Of course, my argument is that, actually, the Dude WAS fully cognizant of the rules, and was pushing his luck in order to try and control the thread like a boss. It's a brilliant play by scum. It's a horrific play by Town; and with no way to verify the claim as we normally would be able to, leaving the Dude alive is just begging for the WIFOM to come bite us in the ass later.

Hmm, it's clearly NOT a brilliant play by scum if the Dude is that, as he's all but getting lynched. I would argue that it's a stupid play no matter what role you are - as if the rules had been paid attention to, you would have known that what happened with Bubba coming out was inevitable.

If the Dude is scum, he is far more likely in my opinion to be a symp than a killer. I do think we should take a look and see if anyone stands out as the most likely people he might be protecting/deflecting from.

Lynched smynched. Look at my previous posts for a more thorough outline - but even the worst outcome for "Dude-as-a-symp" scenario is that he gets lynched and we're none the wiser. All the others fuck Town big time, in various ways. Some better than others, sure, but they're all worse for us than Scum. It's a "stupid" play in the sense that he dies - at least, under the current circumstances, it easily could have gone the other way - but that's not the be-all and end-all for a symp, is it?

And again, my concerns with the sympage thing come down to unverifiability and WIFOM. It's definitely an avenue to look into (the most obvious options being Tatts and Blend, but...) however it leaves us with a solid next move which is problematic without a CF to tell us when to stop (again, see why this is not a bad play for scum? It railroads us no matter which way we turn).

Quote

Silencer, on 19 January 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

Yeah, the pileup on this one has been startlingly swift. I guess people are a bit frustrated at the outcome of Day One (what with the board outage and all), but it's still overkill. Though I'm hurt that you'd think I would just *say* something like that to seem more inno. In all seriousness, the pileon is concerning, no doubt.

I haven't looked into the NK too hard - there's WIFOM enough on this thread already. But probing his interactions on day one is probably worthwhile, even if I can't really bring myself to comb back over that madness just yet. XD

Yeah, you're right that part of the pile-on at least could be frustration from day 1. I still think it looks somewhat dodgy though.


Here's a sudden thought which has just occurred to me:

- The Dude is a symp.

- HO is a killer.

The Dude makes a play which he thinks will be identified as most likely symp play, and sacrifices himself to all but CI HiddenOne for the rest of the game. High-risk maybe, but if that really is the strategy, then you could say it's working perfectly right now. Not sure how likely it could be, but I think it is something else to keep in mind.


I will look through the Dude's (and Gnaw's) posts at some point today.

Yet another reason this move by the Dude has fucked Town regardless of the truth - it's got too many possible layers and no way to peel them back. It's getting more and more convoluted by the second, and I don't like that. Which is why the best solution to our current predicament is probably to lynch the Dude, unfortunately - it's the only way to remove the doubt and curb or kill the WIFOM as best we can. :S


Anyway, time for me to go to bed (4:30am...ffffuuu). Also, the sheep-like mentality of some folks is just as concerning as the pile-on, if the latter isn't just a symptom of it as well.

[Tattersail_]

remove vote


I'm away from the net for a while but we do have a lot of time.

[Lizradusa]

11 Players still alive: Blend, Bonecaster, Dude, Hiddenone, Hinter, Khell, Lady Bliss, Silencer, Sixty, Tapper, Tattersail

6 votes to lynch, 6 votes to go to night.

2 Votes for Tattersail ( Sixty, Blend )
1 Vote for Hiddenone ( Dude )
4 Votes for Dude ( Hinter, Bonecaster, Hiddenone, Tapper )

Players not voted: Khell, Lady Bliss, Silencer, Tattersail

[The Dude]

looks like I am going down. Just make sure HO does as well. not going to fight this as i brought it on myself. not sure what else I could have done.... but look at how fast this train has built up.

@ silencer, I was suspicious of HO because if you look back 2 games I think, HO won the game as scum and was wildly criticized for not playing the game as scum. I was suspicious of him because he was playing similarly.

@Khell, what the hell could I have done? What would you have done? Spare me your commentary on my play. I did what I thought was best for us. Though by "us" i'm not sure If I include you. You can be sure I would be taking a close look at you if I was to live. I know this almost ensures a vote against me by you, but your play has screamed of scum all game and I stand by that.


Also of note. I can see how Hinter, Bonecaster and HO are on my train quickly. Bonecaster is a newb, HO is scum, and Hinter has been playing newb-like all game.. the tapper vote so quick is a huge red flag. He's a better player than that and to try for a speed lynch over a break is out of character for him. I would take a close look at him.


So before I go:

Look at Tapper, Khell, and Tattersail.

[Hinter]

Checking in a little drunk and had a quick scan. Vote remains on Dude for two reasons:

1) We were told time and time again by PS to read the rules. The rules stated no reveals. The Dude has revealed on thread (will find it later but Bubba spanked him for it) and yet remains alive. Therefore the ONLY possible outcomes are that the Dude is really a finder and PS, despite his earlier and frequently repeated warnings has decided to let him blatantly break the rules, or he is scum muddying the waters.

2) His hard-on for HO is meta. Again I will find it later when I am sober (or as close as I ever get to sober) but he has mentioned his dislike for HO due to previous games at least twice. One of these times is in post no. 446 (happens to be the latest post whilst I'm writing this). Tatts said earlier in the thread "You are forgetting some of the Oldies like Tapper, Silencer and Hinter all three of those have been around since time began." This is actually only my 5th or 6th game, but I didn't pick him up on it because if that is accepted maybe people would give more weight to my thoughts. In those 5 or 6 games though I have behaved completely differently in every single game, so meta holds little weight imho.


As to whether he is symp or killer I don't really care. I have been on the winning side more times than not during my infrequent games, I don't go in for long winded essays on mechanics, theories and predictions - I just read the thread, hunt bad guys and kill them. (insert epic film franchise theme tune here).


Now I am going to cook some home made crab cakes and serve them with a side salad and aioli, so will probably be back in an hour or so.

[Khellendros]

The Dude, on 19 January 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

looks like I am going down. Just make sure HO does as well. not going to fight this as i brought it on myself. not sure what else I could have done.... but look at how fast this train has built up.

@ silencer, I was suspicious of HO because if you look back 2 games I think, HO won the game as scum and was wildly criticized for not playing the game as scum. I was suspicious of him because he was playing similarly.

@Khell, what the hell could I have done? What would you have done? Spare me your commentary on my play. I did what I thought was best for us. Though by "us" i'm not sure If I include you. You can be sure I would be taking a close look at you if I was to live. I know this almost ensures a vote against me by you, but your play has screamed of scum all game and I stand by that.


Also of note. I can see how Hinter, Bonecaster and HO are on my train quickly. Bonecaster is a newb, HO is scum, and Hinter has been playing newb-like all game.. the tapper vote so quick is a huge red flag. He's a better player than that and to try for a speed lynch over a break is out of character for him. I would take a close look at him.


So before I go:

Look at Tapper, Khell, and Tattersail.

Really? I'm one of the few who said wait, let's hold on a minute, he might be legit, and you attack me of all people because you're too sensitive to my criticism of your play?! I suggest you leave that sensitivity hidden away in some drawer next time you come play mafia.

And yes, there were other things you could have done. The entire point of the game, in fact, was to try other things. If you find you have nothing to make a concrete case on, then bide your time, see who HO is staying away from/agreeable with. it's still early doors and you could have afforded to do that. That is, of course, if you are legit.


I'll do my read up in the next few hours hopefully.

[Hinter]

The Dude, on 19 January 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

... and Hinter has been playing newb-like all game..

Oh sweet irony.

In other news, the crab cakes were average. It's always a fine balance between enough potato to keep them firm, but not so much potato that you can no longer taste the seafood. On this occasion I erred on the side of too little potato.

[Bonecaster]

That's the way to err. Better the flavor than the firmness.

[Silencer]

Well if there was one quick-fire way to get me to place my vote back, it was going to be fatalism.

Vote the Dude

Which I believe puts him back at L-1.

[Silencer]

OK, for his actual post:

The Dude, on 19 January 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

looks like I am going down. Just make sure HO does as well. not going to fight this as i brought it on myself. not sure what else I could have done.... but look at how fast this train has built up.

@ silencer, I was suspicious of HO because if you look back 2 games I think, HO won the game as scum and was wildly criticized for not playing the game as scum. I was suspicious of him because he was playing similarly.

Well aside from how personally averse I am to the expectation that people play a certain way when scum and other ways when Town and that this is somehow how the game is meant to be played (I mean really, scum are meant to play like Town, that's the whole point), I'll have to go and look into that. But I'm really not one for "boohoo he played well by not looking scummy last time, so we should lynch him this time because he looks like scum!" - if you really are a Finder, though, you did a good job to follow that angle up with a find. Not a lot to go on, granted, but still.

Quote

@Khell, what the hell could I have done? What would you have done? Spare me your commentary on my play. I did what I thought was best for us. Though by "us" i'm not sure If I include you. You can be sure I would be taking a close look at you if I was to live. I know this almost ensures a vote against me by you, but your play has screamed of scum all game and I stand by that.


Also of note. I can see how Hinter, Bonecaster and HO are on my train quickly. Bonecaster is a newb, HO is scum, and Hinter has been playing newb-like all game.. the tapper vote so quick is a huge red flag. He's a better player than that and to try for a speed lynch over a break is out of character for him. I would take a close look at him.


So before I go:

Look at Tapper, Khell, and Tattersail.

Why is it that this post reads perfectly well as an outgoing Finder trying to get their thoughts on thread and also as an outgoing scum trying to get some last minute misdirection going on? ARGH. But still, any information is potentially useful information, so this is good. Though the "oh woe is me, what should I have done?" line is just sickening.

[Lady Bliss]

I did another read through today and came across this post which stood out to me:

The Dude said:

1358377599[/url]' post='1024651']

Khellendros said:

1358375357[/url]' post='1024631']

Lady Bliss said:

1358372874[/url]' post='1024609']

Khellendros said:

1358372325[/url]' post='1024606']
Bliss, it's not your voting for Blend that I necessarily disagree with. Right now, he's my second choice after Tats, but the way you identified me as a killer with Blend but then voted Blend rather than me which is interesting, as is the timing of your vote. You are, after all, the person I'm accusing of being a symp if I'm right about Tats, and so it's interesting that you agree with Tats' assumptions but then vote differently to him. That suggests to me that you want to help him but don't feel you can afford to vote the same way as him, so you go for his other target, and dress it up as your own 'case'.

Khell, the reason why I chose Blend over you is because he really seems to be milking this 'dirty' talk. Tapper also emphasized "dirty" in his response which seems significant.
The fact that I flirted with Tatts is just my being a shameless tart which we should all be aware of by now. I think he spazzed a bit too much, and does look scummy, but the Blend, Khell, Tapper case I made just seems stronger to me.

Oh yes, your case is super-strong.

Remove Vote
Vote Blend


I do like your 'oh yes, I think Tats is scummy, but actually I clearly have no intention of voting for him ever'

I'll only be around a couple more hours on and off, day timeout is in the wee small hours for me.

And this seals the deal

vote Khell


you have looked scummy to me all game and this vote stinks of trying to get a train going on someone to save your skin before they can turn on you.


I'd also be open to tattersail. But I am happy with this vote. Same feeling I got when I led the train on Ruse day one last game. I was right then as well. I am going with informed instincts here.

I don't really have a feel for Bliss. I don't think a lynch is as essential in a non CF game as we don't know either way if we are right or not. So unless I got a better feel for her I;m not sure if i'd go for a vote on her.

Not sure how I feel about a blend lynch. His interactions with Khell haven't stuck out at me. (And Khell's interactions with him are not the reason I am voting Khell).

Let me go back and look at Bliss and see if I can pick up what you guys are sensing.

Dude went after Khell when he put Blend at 4 votes, which may have been enough to get a train rolling. This is what I would expect from a symp, as well as the false reveal today since we never got a lynch day 1. The fact that he didn't get mod killed for violating game rules doesn't support a true reveal to me.
Any scum lynch is better than none, and I'd like to see us move forward.
Vote Dude

[Hinter]

Bonecaster, on 19 January 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

That's the way to err. Better the flavor than the firmness.

Hmmm, neither are great. Do you want a lovely cake shaped piece of potato, or a slightly sloppy crab puree on your plate. In general I would agree with you by going for flavour, but as an ex chef I can't get over the presentation thing.

[Bonecaster]

Yeah, Adam on Northern Exposure yelled about presentation, too. Heh.



So is it possible for someone to change their mind before a mod checks in again?

[Hinter]

Bonecaster, on 20 January 2013 - 01:57 AM, said:

Yeah, Adam on Northern Exposure yelled about presentation, too. Heh.



So is it possible for someone to change their mind before a mod checks in again?

Northern Exposure was a great show.

And yes you can change your mind.

[bubba]

And if you edit your post of content you will be mod killed then banned from Mafia for a while.......

[Silencer]

Sure you can change your mind. But removing vote won't stop the person being lynched - once you get the requisite number of votes it's actually officially night, and all you're waiting for is a mod to come and resolve.

[bubba]

"are you people still here?"

"I told you, you all could go home for the weekend."

After talking to each of you the professor asks Dude and Khell to wait for him in the hallway. He then talks with each of you again then leaves.

From the hallway "Are fucking kidding me? followed by laughter.....


It is day three. clock will start Monday morning.

[Bonecaster]

Thank K'rul! I was hoping the rules worked that way. I didn't want someone to change their mind, and for it all to start again!