[Iamme]

He is never considered one but isn't he the first God of death? He is as old as MD or FL.

[Wol]

So are Osseric and Rake if you want to consider him a god, he had worshipers in any case. The sisters ect. Elder god is more a comment on the type of god you are rather than anything to do with your age. Hood doesn't demand blood sacrifice ergo he isn't an elder god. Plus he isn't an Althzani (can never remember the spelling) so there's another distinction.

[Iamme]

Wol, on 08 January 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

So are Osseric and Rake if you want to consider him a god, he had worshipers in any case. The sisters ect. Elder god is more a comment on the type of god you are rather than anything to do with your age. Hood doesn't demand blood sacrifice ergo he isn't an elder god. Plus he isn't an Althzani (can never remember the spelling) so there's another distinction.

There is a distinction between Hood and Rake. Death is aspect of Hood. Rake is a souped up ascendant. Rake's power come from MD. I am merely pointing to the similairty between MD, FL and Father Death (Hood). Each "grab" a gate at the same time more or less (Rake and Osseric don't even count). There is no other God of Death. It never was. if MD and FL can be Elders, so can Hood.

"Hood doesn't demand blood"

Well I don't remember much but are you sure? We are talking about God of Death here. Whether Hood bleeds and through him, his followers gain power is something entirely different.

[Tehol the Only]

Uhm, i don't know.... i always considered the real distinction between elder and "young" gods to be how they came to be gods... elders were born as gods (either elemental/aspected or not) , while the youngs came into being as one of the "standard" races and only after became gods through adoration.

But i haven't read FoD yet so quite probably i'm writing bull.

This post has been edited by Tehol the Only: 08 January 2013 - 01:23 PM

[Aptorian]

Hood may not demand blood but that doesn't stop his worshippers from force feeding him the stuff.

I believe DG mentions blood sacrifices dedicated to Hood in connection with some religious holiday taking place around the time of the Apocalypse.

[Ulrik]

Hood is same "made" god-ascendant as Rake, Silchas or rather Dessembrae and Ammanas. He was "just" Jaghut powerhouse who wage war and snached the Throne.

For "demand of blood" - he is God of Death...a big part of his subjects is bloody offering thru battle or so... And of course, he has his own cult...maybe he doesnt demand, but got plenty

[Kanubis]

Aptorius, on 08 January 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Hood may not demand blood but that doesn't stop his worshippers from force feeding him the stuff.

I believe DG mentions blood sacrifices dedicated to Hood in connection with some religious holiday taking place around the time of the Apocalypse.

Wasn't it the blood of criminals or somesuch thing? A bit lame on the old sacrifical front if you ask me. They were going to die anyway. It's hardly firstborn virgin daughter's blood. Like drinking cheap lager when all the other Gods are getting champagne.

[Aptorian]

Blood is blood. An offering given by a mortal is a probably a burden in what ever shape or form it comes in.

[Acorn]

Actually... You are all forgetting the fact that Hood held the Ice Throne first, then gave it up to snatch the Realm/Gate of Death.

So... Yes, Hood is an Elder God, no matter what. He was the God of Omtose I suppose, not sure how to put that into the right words.

We know this for multiple reasons, but it's mostly obvious in tCG when he returns to his original Hold.


Regardless though, Hood is an Elder God of Death (until he leaves Death) - he is the only God that covered time-stunted Letherii and the other parts of the world, since everyone everywhere reveres and tries to appease Death. It took Mael wrangling a new Priest and starting a Cult to have any real sway outside of Letherii, and his oceans obviously touch them all.

It's said in tCG that Hood essentially decided to conquer death by becoming the God of Death or something like that... that the Jaghut always warred with death, and only death... I will look up the exact phrases and quotes if you'd like, it's pretty easy with a Kindle version of the books, though that obviously means no page number/etc since it's a Fire.

This post has been edited by Acorn: 08 January 2013 - 04:14 PM

[Abyss]

As of TCG we thought 'Elder God' meant an older god who dated back to before the warrens, likely with a history of blood worship.

And as far as we knew, Hood was a Jaghut who led his people to war against death and failed but seized the guardianship of the throne/gate of death... he could have been older or younger than the EGs, it wasn't clear.


FoD radically shifts that concept because we find out that some of those we thought were 'just' Ascendents (ie: Brood, Ardata, Kallor) are actually as old as the ones we thought of as EGs (Draconus, Olar, Krul, SisCold, Kila, etc) and share an origin with them as Azathanii.

Hood is even more complicated because he's a Jaghut, and thus possibly created by an Azathanii, but he apparently ascends to godhood while some 'older' Az'ii don't, and to further complicate things, Hood ascends (i think) because he seizes control over the gate/throne of death, but isn't worshipped as a god until much later.


All of which is to say, under the definition of 'Elder God' pre-FoD, sure, Hood's an EG, but post FoD that doesn't mean the same thing it did and the title 'Elder God' is basically a general title applied to really old gods.

[Kanubis]

Did you just list Kallor as an Ascendent Abyss? For shame!

[Abyss]

Kanubis, on 08 January 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

Did you just list Kallor as an Ascendent Abyss? For shame!

This debate has run elsethread... Draconus and co's curse in MoI only meant that he could not 'ascend' up to godhood.
Before that he was already a semi-immortal who can stab dragons through the head. He's already become way more than a baseline human or even Azathanii, ergo, he's ascended = Ascendent.

[Kanubis]

I'm less than convinced, though I have no desire to drag up an old discussion since I've seen before that such things tend to weary some of the longer-term members. Do you know which book's subforum the thread was in so I can have a look?

[Acorn]

Kanubis, on 08 January 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

I'm less than convinced, though I have no desire to drag up an old discussion since I've seen before that such things tend to weary some of the longer-term members. Do you know which book's subforum the thread was in so I can have a look?

Is Kallor a God thread.


This is the one I think is being referred to.

[Abyss]

That's the one, tho i hasten to add that was a TtH thread and we know more now post FoD.

It's also an assumption that the High King ref'd in FoD actually IS the Kallor we know and love.

[tiam]

Acorn, on 08 January 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

Actually... You are all forgetting the fact that Hood held the Ice Throne first, then gave it up to snatch the Realm/Gate of Death.

So... Yes, Hood is an Elder God, no matter what. He was the God of Omtose I suppose, not sure how to put that into the right words.

We know this for multiple reasons, but it's mostly obvious in tCG when he returns to his original Hold.


Regardless though, Hood is an Elder God of Death (until he leaves Death) - he is the only God that covered time-stunted Letherii and the other parts of the world, since everyone everywhere reveres and tries to appease Death. It took Mael wrangling a new Priest and starting a Cult to have any real sway outside of Letherii, and his oceans obviously touch them all.

It's said in tCG that Hood essentially decided to conquer death by becoming the God of Death or something like that... that the Jaghut always warred with death, and only death... I will look up the exact phrases and quotes if you'd like, it's pretty easy with a Kindle version of the books, though that obviously means no page number/etc since it's a Fire.

Abyss, on 08 January 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

As of TCG we thought 'Elder God' meant an older god who dated back to before the warrens, likely with a history of blood worship.

And as far as we knew, Hood was a Jaghut who led his people to war against death and failed but seized the guardianship of the throne/gate of death... he could have been older or younger than the EGs, it wasn't clear.


FoD radically shifts that concept because we find out that some of those we thought were 'just' Ascendents (ie: Brood, Ardata, Kallor) are actually as old as the ones we thought of as EGs (Draconus, Olar, Krul, SisCold, Kila, etc) and share an origin with them as Azathanii.

Hood is even more complicated because he's a Jaghut, and thus possibly created by an Azathanii, but he apparently ascends to godhood while some 'older' Az'ii don't, and to further complicate things, Hood ascends (i think) because he seizes control over the gate/throne of death, but isn't worshipped as a god until much later.


All of which is to say, under the definition of 'Elder God' pre-FoD, sure, Hood's an EG, but post FoD that doesn't mean the same thing it did and the title 'Elder God' is basically a general title applied to really old gods.

Regarding Hood being an EG. Its stated in TCG by an ancient FA that Hood could have become an EG if hed wanted to, he is that powerful therefore, but he did not choose to. Therefore his worship might represent a different flavour than the Errants or Kruls or the other blood fuelled worship. Yes it is mentioned in the main arc that Fiddler or WJ ,if they were religious, would let some blood into a bowl for Hood as a token. However to jump from this to Hood being an EG is a stretch and the notion of godhood has evolved drastically since the earlier books.

As for the title of EG being applicable to really old gods Id say it has more to do with worship than anything. As ive mentioned Hood could have but didnt therefore it is not strictly an Azathanai title. The system of godhood seems incredibly cyclical. For example it stated in numerous places but largely in that one POV section we get from the scholar in the tower of the Border Swords that all races were actually created by the Azathanai so Kily for the Forulkanal, Draconus for the Tiste, OE for the Dog Runners etc. However these races have also thrown up their own gods now such as Burn, the greatest BoneCaster, who it turns out is much older than MD yet isnt considered an EG as she is a god with a different bargain/worship.

As a result it will probably turn out that these original creationist gods will turn to the Errants bargain with Draconus to maintain their position. A bargain of blood caused by the Errants killing of Korya thus forever linking worship with blood.

Abyss, on 08 January 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

That's the one, tho i hasten to add that was a TtH thread and we know more now post FoD.

It's also an assumption that the High King ref'd in FoD actually IS the Kallor we know and love.

It could simply be a title that Kallor takes. While it would not surprise me to learn that kallor is around at this point, thus explaining his link with the TL and his trip to Saranas in that flashback, it would strike me as a retcon. It would be better if the High King mentioned in FOD that is so beloved by his people was actually someone different and Kallor simply adopted the title as an ironic jest given his tyranical nature.

[worry]

We still can't say any of these people are the same age. It's possible Grizzin and Killy dated for a bajillion trajillion years before they had little baby Sechul, and K'rul and Mael were grampa-ing (grandma-ing?) it up even back then. And then maybe Caladan was born somewhere in between, and the High King after, or whatever. All we know is that they all existed at least back to this era.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i got the impression that all the (first generation) azathanai were born of the vitr. not sure where i got that, maybe from caladan, but i did. i could be wrong, but if that is the case, then it would not surprise me in the least to learn that they didn't all spring forth at once.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 08 January 2013 - 10:40 PM

[Zaloopa]

I've always thought of elder gods as just being old gods that were never mortal to begin with. After reading FoD I don't consider Mother Dark to be an elder god anymore, she seems more like an ascendent/god to me now. This definition would apply to Hood as well. However the term "elder god" seems to be vague enough to allow all sorts of interpretations.

[Abyss]

Zaloopa, on 10 January 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

... the term "elder god" seems to be vague enough to allow all sorts of interpretations.

exactly.