[18scsc]

Okay, I'm super new to these forums (2nd post) so forgive me if I sound like a total noob. I did search the forums for something regarding the matters about to be discussed but I couldn't find anything. Of course I might have missed it so forgive me if this has already been bought up/created.

I found MBoTF last summer. Now I would love to say I've been reading non-stop since then (if that was true I'd be finished by now though :/) but alas, because I almost always only buy books from Half-Priced Books and it's rather limited inventory (as compared to B&N) I've yet to acquire and read all the books, thus far I've only gotten up to The Bonehunters after my recent acquisition of all the books from HoC to DoD. And so far I LOVE IT, love it, love it!! Love the series and it's incredible vastness, the depth of it's characters, and the truly incredible quotes one can find in it. I love it more than WoT, LotR, aSoIaF and just about everything I've ever read.

This love of the series has led me to recommending it to many of my friends (and more besides). However time and time again I've had people start GotM and then quit, stating that "it's just to dammed hard and confusing". Which is indeed a very valid complaint, hell it put me at the end of my wits by the time I stared getting the hang of it (this coming from a guy read LotR and Moby Dick in 4th grade for fun). Erickson tosses us into this vast and chaotic world with no reference at all, instead we slowly have to puzzle it out over time. Yet many people don't have the patience to do this, and this leads to many perspective fans quitting the series.

In my opinion the obvious solution is to craft a short "beginner's guide" of sorts. It seems however, that the problem resides in finding the balance between information that makes the series easy to read, and information that spoils the series and it's ever so lovely and enticing mysteries, furthermore it can't be like 30 pages long. I've put some small amount of thought into this matter, and thus far I think that something that gives us a short explanation of magic, the Deck of Dragons (maybe the Tiles of the Holds or it's relation to the deck of dragons?), ascendants/gods, and a short history of the Malazan Empire. Additional Ideas include the Tiles of the Holds and it's relationship to the Deck of Dragons, more early histories, and perhaps a short explanation of peoples and races.

I'm going to do some more searching on our two wikis (gah, 2 wikis makes things confusing) to see if I can find any such guide. I'll also start searching through the books I've read so far to find good tidbits of information to put in it and perhaps write up a rough outline of what I want to be in the guide.

Anyways before I head off to start this project I want to say that any thoughts, ideas, input, or suggestions would be immensely appreciated and perhaps incredibly helpful.

[worry]

Just show them this picture:

A sorcerer is like that bunny outside on the upper right. He can use "his" warren (aka Paths ie the tunnel) to pull and shape sorcery from a source location Warren/Hold (ie the big parts where other bunnies or what have you actually live) and use it in the mortal world. He can also travel through the tunnels to get to those Warrens, like that bunny on the lower right is trying to do.

If you want to teach them about sex, I would also recommend bunnies for that.

[Acorn]

I don't know if I'd actually have liked something like what you are describing...

When I read GotM I had no reference point or anything to go off of - and had someone explained, even in minor detail, the ways of Magic, Gods and Goddesses and how they relate and so forth... I probably wouldn't have enjoyed it anywhere near as much... If I even bothered to read it at all.

For me, and I'm sure others, reading is an escape. I immerse myself in the world the Author creates and forget all about everything else... I think having an explanation of the workings of Wu would have seriously hampered the depth with which I could lose myself in the book.

Half the fun of reading a serious series by a good author is discovering links and secrets and how things are happening. Take even some of that away and you lose a lot of the impact the series has.

If your friends can't get into the books, then that's fine... Not everyone can appreciate a series as intense, in depth and creative as the Malazan world. Not everyone can connect with the amazing people, who are generally very realistic and plausible.

Honestly, just tell them that the series is intense and clever and they may have a hard time working through the first book, but that the effort is in the end rewarded ten fold.

I can't think of any Fantasy books that I've read that come with a "brief manual" in order to get into/through the book easier... I mean, EVERY fantasy book... EVER... throws you into a world that you are not familiar with (originally, not sequels of course) and with laws of nature/physics/magic that you don't know or understand.... That's kind of the entire point of a Fantasy story.

My Girlfriend is having a hard time getting through GotM, and she reads almost as much as I do... If she gets through it great, if not no big deal... It's her loss.


I couldn't count the number of series I've read where the first book wasn't harder, to some degree, than the later books. Because you spend a lot of time in the first books getting acquainted with the world and people in it... It's kind of par for the course.


If you insist of writing up a description, make it a short and vague as possible... Otherwise you spoil a lot of the pay off that could be experienced.


/end rant............. ><

[18scsc]

Acorn, on 06 January 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

Half the fun of reading a serious series by a good author is discovering links and secrets and how things are happening. Take even some of that away and you lose a lot of the impact the series has.

Yes, I do identify with that very much. I think it would probably be short, maybe a few paragraphs on magic, similar to WorryWort's suggestion, and maybe taking some cues from Bottle's little description of how warrens work in DoD. It would probably be very limited and just give you an idea of how things lay, for example I wont say that the warrens are really K'rul's blood. This seems like just another one of the things I'll need to look for balance in.

Acorn, on 06 January 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

I can't think of any Fantasy books that I've read that come with a "brief manual" in order to get into/through the book easier... I mean, EVERY fantasy book... EVER... throws you into a world that you are not familiar with (originally, not sequels of course) and with laws of nature/physics/magic that you don't know or understand.... That's kind of the entire point of a Fantasy story.

Well to be fair very few of those worlds are as vast, chaotic, and interlinking as the universe of MBotF. The only two worlds I can think of that are nearly as complicated is Tolkein's Arda (which does have a guide of sorts in the form of The Similarion) and the EU of Star War, Tolkein very much so uses Soft Magic, while Star Wars uses Hard Magic with some Soft Magic mysteries mixed in (Refer to Brandon Sanderson's essay on the matter http://brandonsander...rsons-First-Law) and quite frankly it's rather simple as magic more or less just happens (I'd actually say the force in Star Wars is more near the middle but whatever). The magic system in the Malazan and their companion books (or at least from what I understand so far) is a very complicated and confusing magic system that straddles the boundary between Soft Magic and Hard Magic. It's all very confusing.

[Shpetim]

18scsc, on 06 January 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

Acorn, on 06 January 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

Half the fun of reading a serious series by a good author is discovering links and secrets and how things are happening. Take even some of that away and you lose a lot of the impact the series has.

Yes, I do identify with that very much. I think it would probably be short, maybe a few paragraphs on magic, similar to WorryWort's suggestion, and maybe taking some cues from Bottle's little description of how warrens work in DoD. It would probably be very limited and just give you an idea of how things lay, for example I wont say that the warrens are really K'rul's blood. This seems like just another one of the things I'll need to look for balance in.

Acorn, on 06 January 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

I can't think of any Fantasy books that I've read that come with a "brief manual" in order to get into/through the book easier... I mean, EVERY fantasy book... EVER... throws you into a world that you are not familiar with (originally, not sequels of course) and with laws of nature/physics/magic that you don't know or understand.... That's kind of the entire point of a Fantasy story.

Well to be fair very few of those worlds are as vast, chaotic, and interlinking as the universe of MBotF. The only two worlds I can think of that are nearly as complicated is Tolkein's Arda (which does have a guide of sorts in the form of The Similarion) and the EU of Star War, Tolkein very much so uses Soft Magic, while Star Wars uses Hard Magic with some Soft Magic mysteries mixed in (Refer to Brandon Sanderson's essay on the matter http://brandonsander...rsons-First-Law) and quite frankly it's rather simple as magic more or less just happens (I'd actually say the force in Star Wars is more near the middle but whatever). The magic system in the Malazan and their companion books (or at least from what I understand so far) is a very complicated and confusing magic system that straddles the boundary between Soft Magic and Hard Magic. It's all very confusing.

The thing with the warrens is that they can be like a riverbed, but they can also be an entire realm in itself. There is no soft or hard magic in the Malazan universe. There's varying intensities of it, but essentially it's the same. The Deck of Dragons gives a clue, more or less. The houses represent certain aspects, adherents of which can access to their leisure.

btw, Tolien uses bonehard magic too yo... What about Sauron and Morgoth? That sound soft to you? lol
=)

[Trull's son]

Not sure if something like a beginner's guide needs to exist. From what I hear, the difficult entry to the series was intentional. I know, GotM demonstrates some of Erikson's least polished work. That said, Erikson explained in an interview (posted elsewhere in the forums) that the series is partly an

Spoiler

homage to the "hero's journey"

He said that it is not surprising that some people put down the book. Sometimes the farmer doesn't want to save the world; it's much easier to keep close to one's comfort zone.

This post has been edited by Trull's son: 06 January 2013 - 08:15 AM

[Ulrik]

Guide? Dunno... It IMO robs reader of joy/ pain discovering the world and political/ religious/ magic systems. Sometimes it would be necessary to spoiler things (Dessembrae, CG, Chaining), sometimes you would just guess or give incomplee answers (Deck of Dragons and his use/ symbolism - GotM, BH and DoD has different meanings of reading of Deck of Dragons).

IMO, MBoF is hard to get in, but not impossible...and frankly, I dont like trend "lets make it easier, more accesible" in every part of society... Heh, its literature, you just need to know how to read. Making guides is like castration...

But thats just opinion of me and grumpy cat...

[LinearPhilosopher]

If such a guide were to exist, it would have to be a very short guide. And if indeed such were to happen, the guide should contain only the mechanical aspects of the series. Such a guide would also have to be limited to information relevant to GOTM. Warrens, the deck of dragons and ascendancy that's it. And such an explanation would have to be brief as possible. You don't need to go into detail such as
MOI

Spoiler

The warrens are the blood of an elder God

TCG

Spoiler

such was done to create order within the chaos, which is why chaos borders and wars with all warrens.

[Acorn]

There are an awful lot of Fantasy books/series that have complex systems of Magic. All of them (or nearly) explain their magic system to the point where it loses its wonder and becomes boring and commonplace.

Wheel of Time is a prime example... CONSTANTLY throughout the series you are pummeled over the head with how "Channeling" works. And even when they alter things slightly, they repeat that often enough to where it seems just as normal as the "other/old way" of doing things. (IE the "new healing" that "The Wisdom, who I can't spell her name off the top of my head" started using, became so popular and specialized by everyone else that it wasn't special at all after a VERY short time.)


It's an attempt to acquaint the reader with the Fantasy world enough to trust the Author when they write stranger (realistically) things. Smoke and Mirrors and all that. It's also a genuine attempt to make you feel like you're a part of the world and story, and that you can follow along AND intuit other things along the way.

The blessed difference in the Malazan world is that you don't get explanations handed to you in a concise and obvious format... The world is convoluted and confusing. Things are happening all over the world that contribute to the current state of affairs. There is no simple, easy reason for anything in the stories... And if you try to boil it down to that, it is no longer the real story. It's no longer anything quite so amazing.

This includes the Magic system, the Pantheon of Gods, the major influencing Characters and even the Creatures and Races... If you boil it down to the bare bones to try to help someone understand prior to or along side of reading even the first book... Well, they'll not really care much when they finish it. There will be far less impact and reward for them.

I keep trying to explain things well while not being too specific, as a mental and writing exercise, but I always delete it feeling like it was an epic fail. It's hard to put something with such huge scope into a compact explanation. It always falls short of the mark.

Tell them to read the first two books, and they'll never see anything in Fantasy or even Sci-Fi the same again...



And if that doesn't work, try bribery!

[worry]

My main non-joking advice is that you get better friends.

[Use Of Weapons]

You're trying to make your friends enjoy the same things you enjoy. Why are you doing that?

[Battalion]

if something is good, surely you ant to share it with your friends?

[LinearPhilosopher]

Use Of Weapons, on 06 January 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

You're trying to make your friends enjoy the same things you enjoy. Why are you doing that?

Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated by the borg.

[Abyss]

At root the MBF's biggest pro AND con is the complexity of GotM... many of us love it precisely because we don't know wtf is happening when the book starts, and a lesser weaker stupider complacent farmboy-loving video-game-generation those damn kids commies different group is utterly thrown off by that same element.

I suppose a 'cheat sheet' for the infamous GotM200 couldn't hurt, but the temptation to spoil, even inadvertantly, would be dire.

[Use Of Weapons]

Battalion, on 07 January 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

if something is good, surely you ant to share it with your friends?

Of course. But note the word 'make' in my post above.

[WWQBD?]

The first time I read GotM, my first thought was "fake it 'til you make it," and then I thought...you know...most of the characters in the book don't know what is going on, so I'm on the same level as they are. Part of what makes it so easy to fall into this series is that you are treated like a participant, as well as a reader. While the reader has insight into thoughts and feelings of the characters, and they may have prior knowledge or knowledge of what is happening elsewhere to cause a certain effect, etc, it's not really omnipotent. I love that about this series. I have also had a lot of friends stop halfway through GotM, but I've also had friends who were as consumed by this series as I am. Whatever. I don't like all of their literature, either. The authors and publishing houses are making money either way.

[nacht]

This is an interesting idea.
GotM is like the Gom Jabbar test. Only those who survive can read on.

As an alternative I would suggest a picture book. There are a lot of great art work in this forum. (Maybe the women's calendar would interest the men to keep going. Who would not want to find Masan even if you have to read 6 books :-)
For ex. a picture of the battlefield of Pale could really motivate people...
or the hounds doing damage to Ito Kan cavalry or the awe inspiring Dragnipur ...

[Hinter]

worrywort, on 06 January 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

Just show them this picture:

A sorcerer is like that bunny outside on the upper right. He can use "his" warren (aka Paths ie the tunnel) to pull and shape sorcery from a source location Warren/Hold (ie the big parts where other bunnies or what have you actually live) and use it in the mortal world. He can also travel through the tunnels to get to those Warrens, like that bunny on the lower right is trying to do.

If you want to teach them about sex, I would also recommend bunnies for that.

Wow, I suddenly understand everything.

[WhiskeyPhil]

Like yourself, when I first started reading GotM just a few weeks ago, I too thought a Beginner's Guide would be a good idea (If you read my first entry in "New Malazan Readers" you'll understand my frustration). Having failed miserably in trying to find such a thing, I quickly begun to realise that none exist...and for a very good reason; It is not meant to be an easy read and to make it so, in my opinion, would be to spoil the very nature of the book. My interest in the books having been piqued by reviews etc., I joined this site to find out more of what all the excitement was about and I discovered the 'Encyclopedia Malazica'. I can't say it solved all my problems as one thing led to another ie; Warrens linked to Names, Names linked to Tribes, Tribes linked to..., well you get the picture. So from this I realised that this was the way to go; to look things up as you go along. Ok, it took time, and I've still got a lot to learn but I'm getting there! Even now, I'm only on pp400 approx but am now really beginning to make sense of it all. So if you want to take my advice (for what it's worth) spend some time with the Encyclopedia Malazica and the Malazan Empire will begin to take on a whole new meaning and a life of it's own.

This post has been edited by WhiskeyPhil: 25 July 2013 - 03:05 PM

[Abyss]

WhiskeyPhil, on 25 July 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

Like yourself, when I first started reading GotM just a few weeks ago, I too thought a Beginner's Guide would be a good idea ... I've still got a lot to learn but I'm getting there! Even now, I'm only on pp400 approx but am now really beginning to make sense of it all. ...

Welcome. You'll fit in just fine.

But a less spoiler-risking way to go is to post questions in the specific book forum. As a general rule, any responses you get will be limitted to what you would learn from that book.

The Encyclopedia is awesome, but really really REALLY spoilerisky.