Malazan Empire: Scott Lynch nails some jerk's nuts to the wall -- with aplomb - Malazan Empire

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Scott Lynch nails some jerk's nuts to the wall -- with aplomb

#1 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 11:27 PM

I haven't read Lynch's couple books yet, though they've been on my wishlist a while. That said, this response to a bigot makes me want to buy them immediately, for myself, my family, my friends, my enemies, total strangers, etc.

http://fuckyeahscifi...a-critic-of-the


Author Scott Lynch responds to a critic of the character Zamira Drakasha, a black woman pirate in his fantasy book Red Seas Under Red Skies, the second novel of the Gentleman Bastard series.
The bolded sections represent quotes from the criticism he received. All the z-snaps are in order.

Your characters are unrealistic stereotpyes of political correctness. Is it really necessary for the sake of popular sensibilities to have in a fantasy what we have in the real world? I read fantasy to get away from politically correct cliches.


God, yes! If there's one thing fantasy is just crawling with these days it's widowed black middle-aged pirate moms.

Real sea pirates could not be controlled by women, they were vicous rapits and murderers and I am sorry to say it was a man's world. It is unrealistic wish fulfilment for you and your readers to have so many female pirates, especially if you want to be politically correct about it!

First, I will pretend that your last sentence makes sense because it will save us all time. Second, now you're pissing me off.

You know what? Yeah, Zamira Drakasha, middle-aged pirate mother of two, is a wish-fulfillment fantasy. I realized this as she was evolving on the page, and you know what? I fucking embrace it.

Why shouldn't middle-aged mothers get a wish-fulfillment character, you sad little bigot? Everyone else does. H.L. Mencken once wrote that "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." I can't think of anyone to whom that applies more than my own mom, and the mothers on my friends list, with the incredible demands on time and spirit they face in their efforts to raise their kids, preserve their families, and save their own identity/sanity into the bargain.

Shit yes, Zamira Drakasha, leaping across the gap between burning ships with twin sabers in hand to kick in some fucking heads and sail off into the sunset with her toddlers in her arms and a hold full of plundered goods, is a wish-fulfillment fantasy from hell. I offer her up on a silver platter with a fucking bow on top; I hope she amuses and delights. In my fictional world, opportunities for butt-kicking do not cease merely because one isn't a beautiful teenager or a muscle-wrapped font of testosterone. In my fictional universe, the main characters are a fat ugly guy and a skinny forgettable guy, with a supporting cast that includes "SBF, 41, nonsmoker, 2 children, buccaneer of no fixed abode, seeks unescorted merchant for light boarding, heavy plunder."

You don't like it? Don't buy my books. Get your own fictional universe. Your cabbage-water vision of worldbuilding bores me to tears.

As for the "man's world" thing, religious sentiments and gender prejudices flow differently in this fictional world. Women are regarded as luckier, better sailors than men. It's regarded as folly for a ship to put to sea without at least one female officer; there are several all-female naval military traditions dating back centuries, and Drakasha comes from one of them. As for claims to "realism," your complaint is of a kind with those from bigoted hand-wringers who whine that women can't possibly fly combat aircraft, command naval vessels, serve in infantry actions, work as firefighters, police officers, etc. despite the fact that they do all of those things— and are, for a certainty, doing them all somewhere at this very minute. Tell me that a fit fortyish woman with 25+ years of experience at sea and several decades of live bladefighting practice under her belt isn't a threat when she runs across the deck toward you, and I'll tell you something in return— you're gonna die of stab wounds.

What you're really complaining about isn't the fact that my fiction violates some objective "reality," but rather that it impinges upon your sad, dull little conception of how the world works. I'm not beholden to the confirmation of your prejudices; to be perfectly frank, the prospect of confining the female characters in my story to placid, helpless secondary places in the narrative is so goddamn boring that I would rather not write at all. I'm not writing history, I'm writing speculative fiction. Nobody's going to force you to buy it. Conversely, you're cracked if you think you can persuade me not to write about what amuses and excites me in deference to your vision, because your vision fucking sucks.

I do not expect to change your mind but i hope that you will at least consider that I and others will not be buying your work because of these issues. I have been reading science fiction and fantasy for years and i know that I speak for a great many people. I hope you might stop to think about the sales you will lose because you want to bring your political corectness and foul language into fantasy. if we wanted those things we could go to the movies. Think about this!

Thank you for your sentiments. I offer you in exchange this engraved invitation to go piss up a hill, suitable for framing.


They came with white hands and left with red hands.
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#2 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 11:31 PM

Also, I'm aware that this is not a recent exchange, but I'd never read it or him before. Just know his books by reputation alone.
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#3 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 11:37 PM

Maybe I should have put this in the Fantasy Tropes thread or something instead of its own thread though. I dunno. I could use the rest of the thread to talk to myself maybe.

How's it going?

Oh, pretty decent. Just watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi, it lived up to the hype for sure.

Awesome, I've been meaning to watch that, thanks.

Yah, I know, and you're welcome. And how are you doing?

Not so great, have a sore throat.

Ugh, I hate those!

Yah, tell me about it.

Well, hope you feel better. And thanks for cluing me in on this Lynch fellow. And you know, Christmas is coming up. Hint hint.

Haha yah yah, we'll see.
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#4 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 11:49 PM

You should stop talking to yourself and read The Lies of Locke Lamora.

Edit: Also, I didn't know Jean Tannen was fat and ugly. I am really horrible about imagining how characters really look.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 09 December 2012 - 11:51 PM

Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#5 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:10 AM

Yeah, just read the books WW, they are awesome.

Also Re: JIRO: Told ya!
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora

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#6 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:13 AM

Is it true he has writer's block on the third one? Or is that overstating it?
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#7 User is offline   polishgenius 

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:17 AM

View Postworrywort, on 10 December 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

Is it true he has writer's block on the third one? Or is that overstating it?


Not so much writer's block as he likes writing, he hates editing and revising, and it's been exacerbated by his depression.
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#8 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:23 AM

Thank you. And thank you QT for the Jiro rec, which I also got from a friend. Now that that's settled, why don't you tell me what the hell is going on in Toronto's Ikeas:

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#9 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:32 AM

That was fun to read. I want to give Scott Lynch a big hug now.


View PostHoosierDaddy, on 09 December 2012 - 11:49 PM, said:

You should stop talking to yourself and read The Lies of Locke Lamora.


^^this.

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 09 December 2012 - 11:49 PM, said:

Edit: Also, I didn't know Jean Tannen was fat and ugly. I am really horrible about imagining how characters really look.


Depends on your definition of ugly, I think. Definitely he seems to be a bit mishapen and scarred from all the fights he gets into. As for fat, I think it varies throughout the books depending on how in-shape he is, but even when he's a bit fat it's more of a brawny fat.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 10 December 2012 - 12:33 AM

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#10 User is offline   Slow Ben 

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:47 AM

HoosierDaddy said:

1355096979[/url]' post='1016834']
You should stop talking to yourself and read The Lies of Locke Lamora.



Be warned, they're so good you'll be pissed you have to wait for the next.
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#11 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:10 AM

The pirate with the biggest pirate army (80,000+ people under her rule) was a woman. Ching Shih of the South China Sea.

The person who wrote into Lynch is a sexist who has untethered himself from history and reality far too often to be worth listening to.
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#12 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:36 AM

View PostBriar King, on 10 December 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

Yeah Worry bk 1 is a huge fucking treat to read. Excellent book. Bk 2 is great as well it just doesn't have as much spark as 1 but it is so worth a read!

Bk 3 has been slated to come out for 3 yrs now I think? Scott has major depression that is crimping the story being published. I'm just hoping he gets his mind healthy at this point.


I seem to recall when the release date of book 3 was pushed back the latest time (to approximately spring 2013) they seemed pretty confident that it would be accurate, so *fingers crossed*

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#13 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:14 AM

I THINK the deal is that Lynch's father died and his already crippling depression was exacerbated....something like that. Either way, I begrudge no writer the time to hone their books into what they need to be. :)
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#14 User is offline   heretics fork 

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:35 AM

If you haven't seen it, Lynch also skewered, hilariously, Orson Scott Card for his execrable rewriting of Hamlet. (Yes, you read that right, OSC rewrote Hamlet so that us doofuses could understand it better, like the part I didn't understand in the original where everything bad is the fault of the gays.)

I don't know how to hyperlink on here but I'll give it a shot.

http://scott-lynch.l...com/265746.html

This post has been edited by heretics fork: 10 December 2012 - 05:35 AM

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#15 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:05 AM

That's pretty awesome. For some reason the board actually had like 3 or 4 different big ESCard arguments over the past year or so. Hamlet did come up, but not sure if that response did.
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#16 User is offline   Ukjent 

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 09:08 AM

What an fantastic response. Political correctives is something that can go and stuff itself in a poor elks behindpart. And for the rest of you, have a nice day.




Edit: A bit cranky, having exam in basic electronics tomorrow.

This post has been edited by Graablick: 10 December 2012 - 09:11 AM

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#17 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 11:52 AM

Scot Lynch is depressed? When, what why?
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#18 User is offline   polishgenius 

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:00 PM

View PostCause, on 10 December 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

Scot Lynch is depressed? When, what why?



There have been various things that might have contributed to his feeling bad, which I don't really want to go airing because there's a lot of hearsay and not all of it is going to be true, but from what he's posted about it I don't think his depression, overall, is one of those that has a cause.

That said, from things he's posted over the last year and a half or so, it seems like thanks to good help and a great girlfriend he's doing much better. Which is great, coz whether we've read his books or not and whatever we think of them, I think we can all agree that Scott Lynch is awesome.
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#19 User is offline   Kruppe's snacky cakes 

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:24 PM

View Postworrywort, on 09 December 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

widowed black middle-aged pirate moms.


Unpopular opinion: I was bored by The Lies Of Locke Lomora...so I never read the followups. As a fan of the widowed black middle-aged pirate mom genre, I think I'll reconsider.

Attached File  pirate-girl.png (14.16K)
Number of downloads: 0
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#20 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:53 PM

View PostKruppe, on 10 December 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

View Postworrywort, on 09 December 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

widowed black middle-aged pirate moms.


Unpopular opinion: I was bored by The Lies Of Locke Lomora...so I never read the followups. As a fan of the widowed black middle-aged pirate mom genre, I think I'll reconsider.

Attached File  pirate-girl.png (14.16K)
Number of downloads: 0


I don't think it's that unpopular, a lot of hype has surrounded Lynch and his trilogy(?). It's natural that it's going to rub some people the wrong way.

I wasn't blown away by the first book and haven't bothered reading the sequel for the same reason. I think it was the tag line that read something in the lines of "the fantasy version of Oceans 11", which the book is nothing like at all, that threw me for a loop. Lamora is a bit of a dick and he spends the entire book getting his ass kicked or getting out smarted. Felt sort of like reading the first book in the "Ketty Jay" series which I haven't bothered folling up on either even though I liked the setting.
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