[Sick@Simpliciter]

It took me a long time to read this book but I'm finally over it!
After NoK I wasn't expecting a damn thing about this book...I read it just because I wanted to find about what the hell was going on Quon Tali before approaching tCG...
Maybe it was because the bar was set very low but I have to admit that I rather enjoyed this book. The plots are complex but well-handled in the end and I lke the feeling that ICE created about the Old Guard: we haven't really seen them in action but it's like we knew this characters from endless other books and we knew the stories behind them all as well... I agree that the characterization is not one of ICE's strenghts but these Old Guard characters seemed to have a life of thier own (obviosuly SE's merits abound in this intimacy with the Old Guard)...
I liked how one of the major points of the story is delivered, i.e. that CG has become redundant in the "world political map"... it's an appropriate counterbalance to what the reader expects from the novel (especially given the title!)
All this granted, the flaws of the book are evident and are well outlined elsewhere in the forum. I agree with most of them but I still think this was a HUGE improvement from NoK

and now on with the doubts:

- Skinner: what are his motivations? to get revenge on the empire or to get the Throne of the HoC? Both? some of his actions during RoTCG seemed to me rather random... why did he and Cowl make so as that few selected transports arrive in Stratem before the others? what was the whole point of that? also while they're raiding Unta it seemed to me (but maybe I was wrong) that Skinner knew this was just a show and a show for what or whom I wonder?
- Iron Bars & Co and the rest of the CG: if Awoved can communicate with each other through the Brethren why they embark in their own Odissey (going from Lether to Assail and then on to Quon Tali) without simply asking other Awoved mages to help out somehow? Why were they late in the first place?
- didn't quite get what happened to the rest of Hotahlar during the final confrontation
- was Cowl working for the CG as well as Skinner? and this Ardata thing is supposed to be RAFO?
- why Ereko wanted to get to Kallor? (because he destroyed all the other Thel Akai during the Jacuruku ravaging?)
- I'm trying to evaluate how much of a mastermind Mallick really is... did all the events in the RoTCG played exactly how he planned them? this Bala seemed to have struck an agreemente with Mallick since the beginning of the book when she makes so that the Falarans can get to Cawn in time to reinforce the Talian league... overall the strategy of Mallick was to make all the forces hurt each other and size the power for himself... can someone better outline how that plan actually worked? or is he just me that is overthing this?


Wow! long post! well, hope that someone volunteers to help out as usual...

[HoosierDaddy]

Sick@Simpliciter, on 01 December 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

It took me a long time to read this book but I'm finally over it!
After NoK I wasn't expecting a damn thing about this book...I read it just because I wanted to find about what the hell was going on Quon Tali before approaching tCG...
Maybe it was because the bar was set very low but I have to admit that I rather enjoyed this book. The plots are complex but well-handled in the end and I lke the feeling that ICE created about the Old Guard: we haven't really seen them in action but it's like we knew this characters from endless other books and we knew the stories behind them all as well... I agree that the characterization is not one of ICE's strenghts but these Old Guard characters seemed to have a life of thier own (obviosuly SE's merits abound in this intimacy with the Old Guard)...
I liked how one of the major points of the story is delivered, i.e. that CG has become redundant in the "world political map"... it's an appropriate counterbalance to what the reader expects from the novel (especially given the title!)
All this granted, the flaws of the book are evident and are well outlined elsewhere in the forum. I agree with most of them but I still think this was a HUGE improvement from NoK

and now on with the doubts:

- Skinner: what are his motivations? to get revenge on the empire or to get the Throne of the HoC? Both? some of his actions during RoTCG seemed to me rather random... why did he and Cowl make so as that few selected transports arrive in Stratem before the others? what was the whole point of that? also while they're raiding Unta it seemed to me (but maybe I was wrong) that Skinner knew this was just a show and a show for what or whom I wonder?

Skinner... changed at some point during the Diaspora. His goal was to become immortal by proclaiming himself Emperor of the Malazan Empire. Thus, according to the Vow, the Malazan Empire would still exist and his reign would feed his own immortality.

I think they got to Stratem early to organize those loyal to Skinner (or immortality/power), and not K'azz. They went to Unta to presumably kill Empress Laseen. Shortcut route that didn't work because she wasn't there and it was obvious the Guard were not going to be considered "freedom fighters"/"liberators" but rather the enemy.

Quote

- Iron Bars & Co and the rest of the CG: if Awoved can communicate with each other through the Brethren why they embark in their own Odissey (going from Lether to Assail and then on to Quon Tali) without simply asking other Awoved mages to help out somehow? Why were they late in the first place?

Pretty sure with the hellhole Assail is the Brethren couldn't reach them. Remember Stalker and Badlands talking about the ghosts there when Stoop pops up? Secondly, it's one thing to move a couple hundred of miles in Lether through Corlo's scepter, quite another to travel across the world or continents with presumably a prefabricated ritual the scepter seems to consist of. They were late because they had the furthest to go to get to Stratem.

Quote

- didn't quite get what happened to the rest of Hotahlar during the final confrontation

Ho took control of the rest of his d'ivers self and reintegrated them.

Quote

- was Cowl working for the CG as well as Skinner? and this Ardata thing is supposed to be RAFO?

Cowl is the best mystery. I think he just wanted power/immortality, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was he who figured out the way around the Vow to do so and told Skinner. Maybe we'll see him again. Don't think he was working with CG.

Quote

- why Ereko wanted to get to Kallor? (because he destroyed all the other Thel Akai during the Jacuruku ravaging?)

Think it was a prophecy/destiny sort of thing.

Quote

- I'm trying to evaluate how much of a mastermind Mallick really is... did all the events in the RoTCG played exactly how he planned them? this Bala seemed to have struck an agreemente with Mallick since the beginning of the book when she makes so that the Falarans can get to Cawn in time to reinforce the Talian league... overall the strategy of Mallick was to make all the forces hurt each other and size the power for himself... can someone better outline how that plan actually worked? or is he just me that is overthing this?

No, you are right. Mallick is playing all sides here. He's sneaky and smart like Kellenved was.

1. Laseen has to die. = Taya Radok, but it has to be done on the sly. Korbolo presumably has control of the armies and the Claw is split.
2. Old Guard has to be destroyed as they might not tolerate a non-Old Guard on the throne.
3. Crimson Guard were the surprise, but I think he dealt with that through Mael's Duldrums and delayed them long enough so that other events could proceed as he wanted.
4. Everybody kills everybody, oh there's Mallick with an embarassed Korbolo Dom ripe for the plucking and with Laseen's death, Topper's disapperance, and Possum's death pretty much sole control of the Claw.

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Wow! long post! well, hope that someone volunteers to help out as usual...

RotCG remains my favorite ICE novel. I really liked it too.

[Sick@Simpliciter]

Many thanks for the clear explanations from an Italian Colts fan!

[worry]

I'm re-reading it right now (<100 pages left), and though I enjoyed it the first time around, I am liking it a whole lot more the second time around.

Abyss covers everything, but I would add that the Crippled God does hint that Cowl will likely be open to his influence after Topper refuses his offer. So timing-wise this must be before TCG approaches Cowl, but I do think they hook up off-screen within the midst of everything going on in this book.

[Sinisdar Toste]

the backbone of ICE's work are the CG, keep reading his work and you'll find out bucketloads about them. i've just finished Blood and Bone, which really shows that the CG are ICE's bridgeburners. of course they're completely different from the BB, but you know what i mean.

[HoosierDaddy]

worrywort, on 01 December 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

I'm re-reading it right now (<100 pages left), and though I enjoyed it the first time around, I am liking it a whole lot more the second time around.

Abyss covers everything, but I would add that the Crippled God does hint that Cowl will likely be open to his influence after Topper refuses his offer. So timing-wise this must be before TCG approaches Cowl, but I do think they hook up off-screen within the midst of everything going on in this book.

Brainz?

[Ulrik]

Sinisdar Toste, on 01 December 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

the backbone of ICE's work are the CG, keep reading his work and you'll find out bucketloads about them. i've just finished Blood and Bone, which really shows that the CG are ICE's bridgeburners. of course they're completely different from the BB, but you know what i mean.

You gave me hope after disappointing OST! ICE really works well with CG.

[worry]

Okay, I finished the re-read. Picked up on a lot of the Light stuff I missed the first time around. The Kyle/Osserc/Father Wind stuff was obvious the first time, and Silk being a possible human/TL descendant was kinda there the first time too, but the whole thing with Heng/The Protectress/Liss/the Seti and their relationship to Light/Dawn/etc. rang out more this time. Or Bala taking day shift while Heuk takes night shift. And I'm more convinced this time around that it's FL in Thyr or whatever that talks to Skinner and Cowl. Meat and potatoes problems are still plenty noticeable, but the book is a lot more consistent on re-read (just as with SE's books change on re-read) in pretty much all its plot points. Except the Cowl/Topper finale, which still goes down bad.

[worry]

Oh yah, and Hurl as Builder of Light.