[Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast]

Thank you, Abyss.

The point I'm trying to get across, which Abyss seems to have done better than me, is that it says he's white where he's (indirectly, perhaps) described as being white in Flemming's own books. So—back to my tiste comparison—if a tiste andii is described as being 'magically black' is it ok to have one played on-screen by a white guy? By your reasoning that should be fine.

I maintain that the same applies to real life figures such as Martin Luther King—he was black because he was black, just as James Bond has been described as white by his creator, but you wouldn't cast a white man in a film about MLK because MLK wasn't white (and nor would you cast Superman—who is, if you hadn't forgotten, also a fictional character—as a black man because—apparently—it wouldn't fit), SO...why would you cast a black man as such a well know character as James Bond when James Bond isn't black?

[Battalion]

On a similar subject I found It difficult to associate Will Smith as Robert Neville from the woeful I Am Legend movie. In my mind I just pretended that they were completely different entities. In Matheson's novel Neville was a blond haired white dude. So when I watched the film, obviously, there was no way I could be watching the same man I'd built with my imagination from reading the book.

[Abyss]

Illuyankas, on 14 November 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

They've said 'that was great, but it wasn't Bond' to literally every single actor in the role, even before Connery, no matter how successful they were. They were idiots, and should be ignored.

'they' in that case are a minority, hell, there are Fleming book purists who insist that the movies, all of them, aren't Bond.

Quote

And what the fuck is that last post about, dude? Is there some negative situation I'm not thinking of that'll happen if Bond isn't dazzlingly white at all times?

Stated upthread: I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. i'm saying it won't happen.

Quote

And if you don't think a Bond with a prosthetic, gadget-filled hand wouldn't be awesome, then you're even more wrong than you already were.

I could see it if they were going the Roger Moore semi-comedic heavy gadgets route where he's battling guys with bionic teeth. With Craig it would have been silly.

[QuickTidal]

I think Abyss makes a good point with the idea of an "entrenched character" being very tough to change if only because unless everyone embraces it, it simply won't stick. They could do a black Bond and movie audiences might reject it and that would cause it to flop, and the character would go back to what it was.

I think a good analogy might be taking Superman or Batman and making them Blonde. It simply would not stick no matter how long you tried it for. It's why their costumes, which have been fucked with numerous times over the years making new stylistic version be Canon....they never stuck because Superman wears red and blue, and batman is grey/black or blue/grey. You could not put Supes or Bats in anything else and expect that to stick.

So that has to be taken into consideration by the powers that be when it comes to Bond. Would it stick?

I don't know. I could see Doctor Who sticking because the nature of the character is malleable and ever changing with each incarnation, but Bond is 50 years entrenched and a solid number of his fanbase are old men and women who grew up with him and are from a previous, less than tolerable generation....so I would imagine it might be a fight to get it done....but I would totally support it myself.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 14 November 2012 - 07:49 PM

[Macros]

Again, I'm calling bullshit.

I don't see why a black man playing Clark Kent would be so wrong, where people say entrenched character I read "but I want him to be white like me!"
They're made up people.
Genders, haircolours, sexual prefences, height, build and whatever have been successfully changed for many characters, why the hell should th colour of their skin matter when its not directly referenced constantly as a stand out point (eg a certain albino tiste)

I'm reminded of the "oh no, shes black!" shit that happened after hunger games came out

bah

lawns etc

[Battalion]

Would you be happy to see a white man play BA in the next A Team movie?

[Battalion]

Or when BBC bring out the latest Luthor tv show (great show, by the way) they recast Luthor as a white guy.
There would be uproar, not least by me. It's got nothing to do with what colour I am, and everything to do with what race the character is.

[Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast]

Macros, on 14 November 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

I'm reminded of the "oh no, shes black!" shit that happened after hunger games came out

Wasn't she actually written as a black character, though? Either that or her skin colour was never outright specified.

Hoagy Carmichael, who Bond is repeatedly described as looking similar to in Fleming's books, is white. Ok, I'll concede to the point that Daniel Craig doesn't look a whole lot like the guy, but no one's going to look exactly like Fleming's description. Otherwise it's kind of like saying that Samuel L Jackson looks like Matt Damon. As long as you disregard like...well...all of their physical features.

[QuickTidal]

Macros, on 14 November 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

Again, I'm calling bullshit.

I don't see why a black man playing Clark Kent would be so wrong, where people say entrenched character I read "but I want him to be white like me!"
They're made up people.
Genders, haircolours, sexual prefences, height, build and whatever have been successfully changed for many characters, why the hell should th colour of their skin matter when its not directly referenced constantly as a stand out point (eg a certain albino tiste)

I'm reminded of the "oh no, shes black!" shit that happened after hunger games came out

bah

lawns etc

Macros, first of all calm yourself down.

Secondly, no one is saying that WE could care less what colour any fictional character is. What people are saying is that no matter how progressive we here at this forum are or wish to be...a film version of a character is beholden to the masses. The masses don't like change to something they are that used to.

If they decide in large enough numbers that such a thing doesn't fly, then it doesn't fly. We can bitch about such a thing happening till the cows come home, but it ain't going to change the fact that the masses control how a character is represented in the end, because they are the ones consuming the media. So for every Macros who sees a black Superman as no issue is another person who would refuse such a notion. It's not about right or wrong, it's about what flies with EVERYONE...not just you.

And no, entrenched doesn't mean "I want him to be white like me". Remember I'm half Japanese homeslice...and I don't want Superman to be anything other than what he's always been. And yes that happens to be white.

Let me swing this around for you k?

Kato. Green Hornet Kato. An Asian hero. By your rationale, he could be recast as a white guy and that should be perfectly okay with everyone. But the prospect of having a white guy play that role would NOT fly with the masses. In fact, the latest Kato was Korean and people were annoyed that he wasn't Chinese like Bruce Lee was...that's how an entrenched character works.

Another example? I've got a doozy for you. Tonto. A native American character, arguably one of the most famous. Now he WAS recast with a white guy playing the part for the new film (Johnny Depp is playing him), and the internet had a shit with everyone calling racism and saying that he should be played by a Native. But above you seem to claim this recasting is okay. I'm not okay with the recasting as I feel he should be a native and there are tonnes of awesome stars who are native...

Last one, ready? The Mandarin. In the latest IRON MAN film, Ben Kingsley was cast as The Mandarin. Now the Mandarin in the comics began life as an Asian stereotype, but over the years evolved into something better, and is technically a descendant of Ghengis Khan... a man whose empire and children spanned from China to India to Russia, so he's mixed Asian descent at best. Now everyone had a shit and asked why they couldn't cast an Asian man in the role....meanwhile Kinsgley is Half Indian Asian...but that's not apparently good enough for the masses who want to see the Mandarin played by a Chinese Asian.

That's why these things are considered entrenched.

No one is saying that we shouldn't as a society be ABLE to interchange fictional characters of difference races, skin colours, religions, genders, ect...it's not up to individuals to make that happen, it's up to the masses and the masses more often than not don't like change.

Oh and RE: THE HUNGER GAMES, those comments were the result of idiots who didn't actually READ the book they claimed they read because it's mentioned more than once that Rue is a young black girl. There's no accounting for stupid people on this planet.

[Macros]

I have no problem with any of the above mentioned horrific miscastings.

none whatsoever.

the whole thing reeks of xenophobia, possibly the wrong word, but vocabulary has never been my strong point.

you mention Kato being an Asian hero, and the Mandarin thing, I would argue its better to stretch away from sticking so rigidly to cannon or whatever its called. Why does the bad guy have to be a foreigner, having kingsely (who i think is a great actor) as Mandarin is fine, why? He can act. People who are complaining need to catch a grip, I know the hunger games situation was idiots, but I was using it to push my point that caring about skin colour in most situations is ridiculous and people wanting to stick to what they know or what the are comfortable with. It bugs the shit out me and reads along the lines of "I'm not racist, but.."

[Macros]

Also, I've never seen the green hornrt, but isn't kato a sidekick like tonto?
casting minorities as sidekicks, woo!

[worry]

Isn't James Bond (the movie version) more of a cypher than even any of those examples? Just a role to be played, where anyone carrying out the motions and hitting the right beats is identifiable as him. He's already something of a uniform, regardless of whether they attach some in-story continuity fix. Like what are you gonna do when white people stop existing? Stop having James Bond films?

[Macros]

reverse minstrels.

[QuickTidal]

Macros, on 14 November 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

I have no problem with any of the above mentioned horrific miscastings.

none whatsoever.

the whole thing reeks of xenophobia, possibly the wrong word, but vocabulary has never been my strong point.

you mention Kato being an Asian hero, and the Mandarin thing, I would argue its better to stretch away from sticking so rigidly to cannon or whatever its called. Why does the bad guy have to be a foreigner, having kingsely (who i think is a great actor) as Mandarin is fine, why? He can act. People who are complaining need to catch a grip, I know the hunger games situation was idiots, but I was using it to push my point that caring about skin colour in most situations is ridiculous and people wanting to stick to what they know or what the are comfortable with. It bugs the shit out me and reads along the lines of "I'm not racist, but.."

And I think most people (myself included) don't see someone who is as great an actor as Idris Elba is not be cast as Bond. I'd personally be all for it and I think he's amazing.

But you and I aren't everyone.

And let's be really straight here...there is nothing at all wrong with leaving a character the way he/she were created... for eternity. Nothing.

Recasting them is fine if it happens and sticks (Sam Jackson as Nick Fury, for which we thank Bryan Hitch who first drew him that way)...but you seem to imply that leaving Superman (for an example) white as a decision made by the powers that be is inherently racist. It's not. If someone said hey let's make him black and everyone agreed but one guy and that one guy was the head of production so he made the final call...you couldn't even chalk that up to racism...why? Because he's simply leaving the character the way they were created and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, that guy's personal reasons for wanting Superman to be a white guy don't even enter into it. If he's leaving him as he was created that's not a racist act.

Sorry dude. I think you are seeing something here that isn't here. No one here said that Elba or any other black actor shouldn't be Bond...just that as a decision with a 50-year old character it might not stick with everyone. That's it.

[QuickTidal]

Macros, on 14 November 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

Also, I've never seen the green hornrt, but isn't kato a sidekick like tonto?
casting minorities as sidekicks, woo!

Yes, but in both cases the sidekick is better skilled, more compelling and all around more up front than the main characters are. And that was the point.

The guy who played The lone Ranger was... relatively famous...Tonto was a superstar....same goes for Kato....do you remember the guy who played the original Green hornet? Me neither...but Bruce Lee's entire career was built on the fame he garnered as Kato.

[QuickTidal]

worrywort, on 14 November 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

Isn't James Bond (the movie version) more of a cypher than even any of those examples? Just a role to be played, where anyone carrying out the motions and hitting the right beats is identifiable as him. He's already something of a uniform, regardless of whether they attach some in-story continuity fix.

Yeah, I've always liked that theory as it makes sense with the amount of men who have played him.

[Macros]

If everyone in the studio says yes lets make superman Black and the man with the power says hell no he's staying white I would definitely call him a racist, he would be deliberately going against common opinion because he wants superman white.

Many people have said they do not want Elba or any black man to play bond, we must be reading different threads.


I know nothing of the green hornet, old or new so I can't comment on it really, I assumed sidekick meant sidekick *shrug*

As for the Lone Ranger, I always viewd the Lone Ranger and Silver as the center focal, with Tonto saving the day on occassion but still a sidekick. I expect Johnny Depp to steal the show completely in the new vision however.

[Abyss]

Macros, on 14 November 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

I have no problem with any of the above mentioned horrific miscastings.

none whatsoever.

the whole thing reeks of xenophobia, possibly the wrong word, but vocabulary has never been my strong point.

you mention Kato being an Asian hero, and the Mandarin thing, I would argue its better to stretch away from sticking so rigidly to cannon or whatever its called. Why does the bad guy have to be a foreigner, having kingsely (who i think is a great actor) as Mandarin is fine, why? He can act. People who are complaining need to catch a grip, I know the hunger games situation was idiots, but I was using it to push my point that caring about skin colour in most situations is ridiculous and people wanting to stick to what they know or what the are comfortable with. It bugs the shit out me and reads along the lines of "I'm not racist, but.."

This is more of a discussion on society and entertainment than actual racism.

I don't think changing the ethnicity of a major icon (and the Mandarin in NOT a major icon, btw, screaming comics fans to the contrary) is something to be done lightly, in part because the ethnicity is part of the character (and rumour is they changed the Mandarin origin to address the change in ethnicity in any event, which is fine by moi and no different from what they've done to every other Iron Man movie villain).

There is a sliding scale to it... a white Shaft is no longer Shaft because being black is part of who Shaft is. If they changed say, 'Blade' to a white guy the change would be fairly meaningless because Blade's ethnicity has never been a part of his character, tho i'm certain someone would still complain.

But your point, Macros, seems to be that the producers SHOULD change James Bond to a black man, just because they can and it would be different and interesting.

My response is that while i'd personally like to see that film be made for the audacity if nothing else, i fully expect that the corporate interests that lie behind all things James Bond will never do that because the risk/reward is too negative.

Even if it was a successful film, the studio would be wondering how much better it could have done with Craig back in the tux.

But put Craig back in the tux and make Elba into 008 and maybe have him kick Craig's ass just for good measure, oh hey, they'll be all over that.

And over and above putting Elba in the Bond role, i'd rather see him headline a spy movie as a different character, who is black, and makes for an awesome movie that leads to a sequel that leads to a series that kicks Bond's financial ass.

[Macros]

I don't think I'm saying they should, or if that's what yure getting I'm saying it wrong.
I'm saying I have zero problem with them changing, I have a problem with people screaming that characters skin colours CAN'T be changed. Its seems ridiculous

[Abyss]

Macros, on 14 November 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

I don't think I'm saying they should, or if that's what yure getting I'm saying it wrong.
I'm saying I have zero problem with them changing, I have a problem with people screaming that characters skin colours CAN'T be changed. Its seems ridiculous

Of course they can. I'm saying they won't, when it comes to Bond. Or Superman for that matter.