[QuickTidal]

Briar King, on 10 December 2015 - 07:52 PM, said:

8 days!

I love the Force use in that 1st show. I was air fisting last night in joy.

Oh man, so many jokes about "air fisting" present themselves...none of them at all appropriate.

[amphibian]

[Pulls large helmet face down]

Keep firing, Assholes!

[Slow Ben]

amphibian, on 11 December 2015 - 06:29 AM, said:

[Pulls large helmet face down]

Keep firing, Assholes!

Spoiler for TFA, Ren takes off his mask and its actually Dark Helmet!

[Aptorian]

QuickTidal, on 10 December 2015 - 05:18 PM, said:

Illuyankas, on 10 December 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

QT busting out the Apt-level opinions I see

Hey, someone's gotta show support for batshit crazy, unpopular opinions!

Yeah that's right! You tell them, Quick!

Now say it with me: "Indiana Jones 4 is the best Indiana Jones movie!"

[Andorion]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask but all this Star Wars stuff got me thinking.

Was it ever explained how Darth Sidious was able to conceal himself while living near to and being in the presence of really powerful Jedi on a daily basis?

I mean as Chancellor he often interacted with the Council - with Yoda and Windoo. How did they not sense anything? In the original movies Vader and the Emperor can sense stuff halfway across the galaxy.

[Aptorian]

Andorion, on 11 December 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

Not sure if this is the right place to ask but all this Star Wars stuff got me thinking.

Was it ever explained how Darth Sidious was able to conceal himself while living near to and being in the presence of really powerful Jedi on a daily basis?

I mean as Chancellor he often interacted with the Council - with Yoda and Windoo. How did they not sense anything? In the original movies Vader and the Emperor can sense stuff halfway across the galaxy.

I was going to give you the standard: "Because the Star wars Universe is stupid" line but you actually made me curious:

According to this thread:

http://scifi.stackex...s-having-powers

Quote

72
down vote
accepted


Palpatine was using Force Stealth to hide his Force presence from the Jedi.

From the linked Wookieepedia page:

Force stealth also referred to as Force Concealment or Buried Presence was a power that was used by highly skilled Force-sensitives to mask their Force alignment (Light or Dark), their ability to use the Force, or even their entire presence from other Force sensitives.

Palpatine was the most powerful and notorious user of this power, having hid his dark nature for over three decades from the Jedi Council, even when in the same room.

Jedi Masters Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda both used a form of Force concealment to shield themselves from Palpatine and Vader in their exile.

In other words: Magic.

This post has been edited by Apt: 11 December 2015 - 03:21 PM

[Andorion]

Apt, on 11 December 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

Andorion, on 11 December 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

Not sure if this is the right place to ask but all this Star Wars stuff got me thinking.

Was it ever explained how Darth Sidious was able to conceal himself while living near to and being in the presence of really powerful Jedi on a daily basis?

I mean as Chancellor he often interacted with the Council - with Yoda and Windoo. How did they not sense anything? In the original movies Vader and the Emperor can sense stuff halfway across the galaxy.

I was going to give you the standard: "Because the Star wars Universe is stupid" line but you actually made me curious:

According to this thread:

http://scifi.stackex...s-having-powers

Quote

72
down vote
accepted


Palpatine was using Force Stealth to hide his Force presence from the Jedi.

From the linked Wookieepedia page:

Force stealth also referred to as Force Concealment or Buried Presence was a power that was used by highly skilled Force-sensitives to mask their Force alignment (Light or Dark), their ability to use the Force, or even their entire presence from other Force sensitives.

Palpatine was the most powerful and notorious user of this power, having hid his dark nature for over three decades from the Jedi Council, even when in the same room.

Jedi Masters Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda both used a form of Force concealment to shield themselves from Palpatine and Vader in their exile.

In other worse: Magic.

He was using it all the time? Never took a break?

[Aptorian]

Well, he's ridiculously powerful. Think of him like Kelanved. Would you be surprised to learn that Kelanved was constantly pumping out shadow magic to confuse people and mask his actual physical person and mindset?

I don't think it's something that requires concious effort. It's something subconcious/instinctive that a Jedi can do. Like how you've learned to mask body language or facial expressions to hide boredom, disgust, tiredness, mirth, etc.

This post has been edited by Apt: 11 December 2015 - 03:26 PM

[Andorion]

Apt, on 11 December 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

Well, he's ridiculously powerful. Think of him like Kelanved. Would you be surprised to learn that Kelanved was constantly pumping out shadow magic to confuse people and mask his actual physical person and mindset?

I don't think it's something that requires concious effort. It's something subconcious/instinctive that a Jedi can do. Like how you've learned to mask body language or facial expressions to hide boredom, disgust, tiredness, mirth, etc.

I get that... what I am having trouble with is the idea that Yoda could stand beside him and not have a clue. To extend the Kellanved analogy that would be like Tayschrenn standing in the same room and not having a clue about the shadow magic.

I mean they should have been thinking of a high level spy all the time. Several times in the Clone Wars its remarked how the Seperatists know all their plans. This basically points to a high level mole. I never got why the council never thought along these lines.

[QuickTidal]

Andorion, on 11 December 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

Apt, on 11 December 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

Well, he's ridiculously powerful. Think of him like Kelanved. Would you be surprised to learn that Kelanved was constantly pumping out shadow magic to confuse people and mask his actual physical person and mindset?

I don't think it's something that requires concious effort. It's something subconcious/instinctive that a Jedi can do. Like how you've learned to mask body language or facial expressions to hide boredom, disgust, tiredness, mirth, etc.

I get that... what I am having trouble with is the idea that Yoda could stand beside him and not have a clue. To extend the Kellanved analogy that would be like Tayschrenn standing in the same room and not having a clue about the shadow magic.

I mean they should have been thinking of a high level spy all the time. Several times in the Clone Wars its remarked how the Seperatists know all their plans. This basically points to a high level mole. I never got why the council never thought along these lines.

Basically, Sheev Palpatine (Sidious) trained under the second most powerful Sith lord since Darth Bane, Darth Plagueis the Wise. Between the two of them, they manipulated the force at a chemistry level (in Plagueis studies and attempts to prologue his life and cheat death). The canon theory goes that Anakin's immaculate birth to his mother on Tatooine was the Force lashing back at the two of them for messing with those building blocks...a balance to the force that had been messed with. So a big part of Sidious' power comes from being able to mani;uate the Force at a level the Jedi could never achieve (mostly because they refused to allow themselves by their very own doctrine to mess with things like that, deeming them evil....one accompanies the force, one fights alongside it, one allows it to encompass them....one does NOT try to change it for personal gain). Thus Siduous was inherently more powerful than even Yoda...or even a room full of Jedi masters...and as such was able to hide those powers whenever he chose by manipulating the Force to that end. Like a magic buffer that pushes the thoughts of the individual around him. A stone in a river, if you will.

This also leads into explaining a HUGE problem people have with the end of ROTS....that of Padme dying of a broken heart (which is what everyone always claims is why she died, and that such a thign is stupid) When the actual dialogue is:

GH-7 Medical Droid: Medically, she is completely healthy. For reasons we can't explain, we are losing her.

Obi-Wan: She's dying?

GH-7 Medical Droid: We don't know why. She has lost the will to live. We need to operate quickly if we are to save the babies.

None of which implies she died of anything like a "broken heart". The closest the dialogue comes is saying that "she lost the will to live"...but the bit about that which we need to remember is that droid knows absolutely diddly squat about the "will" of anything, let alone a human beings non-medical reasons for death.

Canon explanation offers up something better and more sinister. Palpatine knows about Padme and Anakin's marriage and love. He KNOWS that she is a roadblock to Anakin's full and complete turn. So, he kills two birds with one stone. With his skills in the dark side, Palpatine siphons off Padme's life on the medical ship (which is still in the Mustafar system at the time) using force powers that are known to exist (Darth Plagueis was the one who learned that you could drink force power from one person and use it for either yourself or another person; Palpatine could do this too) to fuse that into the VERY dying Anakin Skywalker. He uses Padme's lifeforce to save Anakin/Vader on the operating table (THIS is the real reason Padme dies without having any medical symptoms that should allow a death...and why the droid can't explain it).

And the clincher to that explanation. Vader asks after Padme when he is revived in the Vader suit, and Palpatine tells him that "It seems, in your anger, you killed her."

Ask yourself how the Emperor knows she's dead at that point right after Mustafar...unless he had his hands in her death. It all fits.

But yeah, his powers were beyond much of anything known to the Jedi at the time and he easily hides in plain sight as a result.

And this culminates in not a fight that defeats him (Yoda is bested by him in the Senate Chamber in ROTS), but rather the man who had been his willing servant for decades turns on him abruptly and ends him unexpectedly. The Emperor's hubris would not allow him to believe he could be ended that way.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 11 December 2015 - 03:55 PM

[Traveller]

He's not named Sidious for nothing - that's kind of his thing, lurking in plain sight, gradually changing the game from within.

I read somewhere that the Jedi council building on Corruscant is actually built over a Sith temple - the power of which is drawn on by Sidious to aid his deception and boost his power.

In regards to Padme, don't overlook Anakins 'dreams' of her death - it seems likely that Palpatine is responsible for planting those in his head, giving rise to his fear of losing her and making him look outside jedi doctrine for a solution.

Which Sheev then offers him - without having been told about the dreams, he just offers a way to save her, indicating that he knew about the dreams. Actually Anakin says at the beginning of AotC that he's been unable to sleep, and suffering headaches - early interference from Palpatine?

[Andorion]

QuickTidal, on 11 December 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

Andorion, on 11 December 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

Apt, on 11 December 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

Well, he's ridiculously powerful. Think of him like Kelanved. Would you be surprised to learn that Kelanved was constantly pumping out shadow magic to confuse people and mask his actual physical person and mindset?

I don't think it's something that requires concious effort. It's something subconcious/instinctive that a Jedi can do. Like how you've learned to mask body language or facial expressions to hide boredom, disgust, tiredness, mirth, etc.

I get that... what I am having trouble with is the idea that Yoda could stand beside him and not have a clue. To extend the Kellanved analogy that would be like Tayschrenn standing in the same room and not having a clue about the shadow magic.

I mean they should have been thinking of a high level spy all the time. Several times in the Clone Wars its remarked how the Seperatists know all their plans. This basically points to a high level mole. I never got why the council never thought along these lines.

Basically, Sheev Palpatine (Sidious) trained under the second most powerful Sith lord since Darth Bane, Darth Plagueis the Wise. Between the two of them, they manipulated the force at a chemistry level (in Plagueis studies and attempts to prologue his life and cheat death). The canon theory goes that Anakin's immaculate birth to his mother on Tatooine was the Force lashing back at the two of them for messing with those building blocks...a balance to the force that had been messed with. So a big part of Sidious' power comes from being able to mani;uate the Force at a level the Jedi could never achieve (mostly because they refused to allow themselves by their very own doctrine to mess with things like that, deeming them evil....one accompanies the force, one fights alongside it, one allows it to encompass them....one does NOT try to change it for personal gain). Thus Siduous was inherently more powerful than even Yoda...or even a room full of Jedi masters...and as such was able to hide those powers whenever he chose by manipulating the Force to that end. Like a magic buffer that pushes the thoughts of the individual around him. A stone in a river, if you will.

This also leads into explaining a HUGE problem people have with the end of ROTS....that of Padme dying of a broken heart (which is what everyone always claims is why she died, and that such a thign is stupid) When the actual dialogue is:

GH-7 Medical Droid: Medically, she is completely healthy. For reasons we can't explain, we are losing her.

Obi-Wan: She's dying?

GH-7 Medical Droid: We don't know why. She has lost the will to live. We need to operate quickly if we are to save the babies.

None of which implies she died of anything like a "broken heart". The closest the dialogue comes is saying that "she lost the will to live"...but the bit about that which we need to remember is that droid knows absolutely diddly squat about the "will" of anything, let alone a human beings non-medical reasons for death.

Canon explanation offers up something better and more sinister. Palpatine knows about Padme and Anakin's marriage and love. He KNOWS that she is a roadblock to Anakin's full and complete turn. So, he kills two birds with one stone. With his skills in the dark side, Palpatine siphons off Padme's life on the medical ship (which is still in the Mustafar system at the time) using force powers that are known to exist (Darth Plagueis was the one who learned that you could drink force power from one person and use it for either yourself or another person; Palpatine could do this too) to fuse that into the VERY dying Anakin Skywalker. He uses Padme's lifeforce to save Anakin/Vader on the operating table (THIS is the real reason Padme dies without having any medical symptoms that should allow a death...and why the droid can't explain it).

And the clincher to that explanation. Vader asks after Padme when he is revived in the Vader suit, and Palpatine tells him that "It seems, in your anger, you killed her."

Ask yourself how the Emperor knows she's dead at that point right after Mustafar...unless he had his hands in her death. It all fits.

But yeah, his powers were beyond much of anything known to the Jedi at the time and he easily hides in plain sight as a result.

And this culminates in not a fight that defeats him (Yoda is bested by him in the Senate Chamber in ROTS), but rather the man who had been his willing servant for decades turns on him abruptly and ends him unexpectedly. The Emperor's hubris would not allow him to believe he could be ended that way.

Now this makes much more sense!

I suppose this is what an in-depth reading of the EU gives you.

So many things are clearer now including the way Sidious gained influence over Anakin. It also puts Sidious' death into perspective. In the end no amount of force expertise could save him from a blunt brutal gesture like being dropped down a shaft into flames.

The Jedi insistence on celibacy and denial of feelings always put me off. I get they are supposed to be monk analogues but still... historically celibacy has always been problematic.

And unless I am mistaken the early Jedi had families and everything, right? I wonder why they changed that.

[D'rek]

QuickTidal, on 11 December 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

And this culminates in not a fight that defeats him (Yoda is bested by him in the Senate Chamber in ROTS), but rather the man who had been his willing servant for decades turns on him abruptly and ends him unexpectedly. The Emperor's hubris would not allow him to believe he could be ended that way.

How does he actually die, anyways? Sure, in the OT he's thrown down an air vent thingy or whatever, but in the expanded universe that's not something that should kill a master force user, right? Does any other works ever elaborate on that? Does he just not manage to reach an escape ship before the Death Star explodes?

[QuickTidal]

Traveller, on 11 December 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

I read somewhere that the Jedi council building on Corruscant is actually built over a Sith temple - the power of which is drawn on by Sidious to aid his deception and boost his power.

And this factoid is actually canon too, it's noted in the New Canon book TARKIN.

Traveller, on 11 December 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

In regards to Padme, don't overlook Anakins 'dreams' of her death - it seems likely that Palpatine is responsible for planting those in his head, giving rise to his fear of losing her and making him look outside jedi doctrine for a solution.

Which Sheev then offers him - without having been told about the dreams, he just offers a way to save her, indicating that he knew about the dreams. Actually Anakin says at the beginning of AotC that he's been unable to sleep, and suffering headaches - early interference from Palpatine?

Another spot on point. Palpatine's knowledge is clearly out of the realm of him being told these things. He's a master manipulator from the beginning. I mean he actually endorsed Chancellor Valorum, BECAUSE he knew how weak-minded he was. I'll guess he even had a hand in manipulating Valorum to make those poor decisions and that go him ousted from the Senate Chancellor position in the first place.

[Aptorian]

QuickTidal, on 11 December 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

(Long explanation)

That is actually some fascinating insight. Is this stuff laid out in a book or is it just fan fiction trying to make sense of the confusing movie script?

D, on 11 December 2015 - 04:33 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 11 December 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

And this culminates in not a fight that defeats him (Yoda is bested by him in the Senate Chamber in ROTS), but rather the man who had been his willing servant for decades turns on him abruptly and ends him unexpectedly. The Emperor's hubris would not allow him to believe he could be ended that way.

How does he actually die, anyways? Sure, in the OT he's thrown down an air vent thingy or whatever, but in the expanded universe that's not something that should kill a master force user, right? Does any other works ever elaborate on that? Does he just not manage to reach an escape ship before the Death Star explodes?

It's been a decade since I last saw Return of the Jedi but when he fell down that conviniently placed shaft, didn't lightning or fire erupt? Or was that just the force lightning?

[QuickTidal]

D, on 11 December 2015 - 04:33 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 11 December 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

And this culminates in not a fight that defeats him (Yoda is bested by him in the Senate Chamber in ROTS), but rather the man who had been his willing servant for decades turns on him abruptly and ends him unexpectedly. The Emperor's hubris would not allow him to believe he could be ended that way.

How does he actually die, anyways? Sure, in the OT he's thrown down an air vent thingy or whatever, but in the expanded universe that's not something that should kill a master force user, right? Does any other works ever elaborate on that? Does he just not manage to reach an escape ship before the Death Star explodes?

Fantastic question. Nothing in New Canon has explained that yet.

Apt, on 11 December 2015 - 04:48 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 11 December 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

(Long explanation)

That is actually some fascinating insight. Is this stuff laid out in a book or is it just fan fiction trying to make sense of the confusing movie script?

Well, if I had to call it anything, it's a combo of the original prequel scripts, and a retconning that was done after the fact by the Clone Wars TV series, which has now been made officially canon.

- Sidious and Plagueis attemps to mess with the Force at a genetic/chemistry level and the resulting abilities they gain from that are canon in the novels TARKIN and LORDS OF THE SITH.
- the Sith shrine underneath the Jedi Temple which is a wellspring of dark force energy was actually a Lucas idea that only took full shape when Filoni was doing the Clone wars (there was going to be an arc on the show which focused on them exploring this, but the show was cancelled before it was)
- Anakin's immaculate birth being the Force itself lashing out at what the Sith were doing is also Canon in the novel TARKIN.

- Padme's death and Sidious' role in it is an assumption used to explain it with regards to what we know (from the above novels) that he can do as a Sith lord. I'm not sure it's ever been explicitly laid out after the fact what causes her death, but this makes arguably more sense than her just dying "because" when nothing medically went wrong....or why Sidious doesn't worry about Padme AT ALL when he's saving his apprentice....when we know any smart person would worry. I think that's the only one that assembled from logic of other facts...but the rest of it is canon in books. Whether that was intended by Lucas and simply not protrayed well on screen/in-script, or a retconned idea afterwards, it's officially my headcannon now as it makes more sense than any other option I can come up with.

[Primateus]

There was a jedi master in a comic book (yeah yeah, not canon anymore) who fooled a whole group of padawans with a single trick. They thought he used his superior mastery of the force to cloud their senses when in fact he was only using simple sleight of hand.

Sometimes a trick is really just a trick.

Also, I believe that Sideous used Dun Môch, which is a sith clouding technique used for confusion and misdirection.

The simple explanation is, there was a huge galactic war under way and the jedi were all focused on that instead of the snake, right. over. there.

"I could have struck at you at any time, I was right above you and you didn't even know"

[QuickTidal]

BK is our SW Advent Calendar!

[Illuyankas]

Sorry, there is no way George Lucas would write something even close as nuanced as that would need to be (which is not much at all). You're giving him far too much credit.

[QuickTidal]

Illuyankas, on 11 December 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

Sorry, there is no way George Lucas would write something even close as nuanced as that would need to be (which is not much at all). You're giving him far too much credit.

I know that. No one said anything about George Lucas being the impetus behind those things. I specifically noted that it was mostly retcon and Clone Wars stuff, plus New Canon material. I'm not really giving him credit at all.

All George did was leave the window open for those retcons and interpretations, as his script strokes were broad and wide, allowing those gaps to be filled by others. Did George intend to say that Padme died from being Force siphoned? Or that Anakin's immaculate birth was the result of an imbalance Force? Or that Siduous had major Sith powers that allowed him to fuck with the universe as he saw fit? Probably not...but that doesn't remotely matter, does it? I mean is there a reason it matters at this point? He's retired. Disney and Kat Kennedy and Dave Filoni and Pablo Hidlago and others have taken the ball he created and run with it in a slightly different, almost entirely better direction. Who cares what the genesis was or who is responsible, so long as we have an end result that makes sense.

Let's face facts. The Star Wars Continuity we currently have as official is a Frankenstein of the bones of what GL made with the OT and the prequels, and what came after with better, more in depth media (the Clone Wars, Rebels) combined with the heads of the New Canon Story Group and their ideas.

EDIT: Illy, if you are explicitly talking about Padme's death...I don't think that even Lucas would have her die randomly for no reason like that. Even he is not that bad a writer. While it's open to interpretation (in the way I noted) as it stands...I could never quantify the idea that Lucas had her die of a "broken heart" which is what everyone assumes. I'm not buying that he's that dumb, he just wasn't smart enough to paint the whole picture on the screen. The med-droids dialogue is well proof of that to me.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 11 December 2015 - 08:30 PM