[Abyss]

One should keep in mind the context of when each set were made...


OT was made as a Hollywood blockbuster movie trilo in a time when movies made money because if you didn't see them in the theater, you didn't see them, merchandising was a spin-off afterthought, and the internet didn't exist.
PT was made to sell action figures and video games and DVDs with deleted scenes.

OT has set pieces because the story called for them, limited by the sfx of the day.
PT has set pieces because if we work enough action figures and vehicles into this scene some parents will be forced to buy them all to keep their kids happy, and hey, Aquatic Action Obiwan is totally viable even if he just swam in his clothes...

OT has Luke and Leia sexual tension because Lucas hadn't decided they were siblings yet because movies just were not done with a view towards trilogies, long term or ongoing stories.
PT has child Anakin meet teenage Padme because perverts.

etc etc

[Tiste Simeon]

 Tsundoku, on 23 January 2018 - 07:05 AM, said:

 Briar King, on 22 January 2018 - 11:36 PM, said:

Anyone want to volunteer with me? I PROMISE to keep the Cajuningnessious down to minimum.

Well, I'm ambivalent about TLJ, but I'll risk it.

I hope you like cricket. Because if you don't now, you will.

The horror! No amount of entertainment value is worth ending up liking cricket!

[QuickTidal]

 Morgoth, on 24 January 2018 - 03:47 PM, said:

Where do you get this idea that The Phantom Menace was intended as a kids movie? It's rated for young teens in most countries as far as I can tell. In Norway it was rated 12. Nothing in that movie implies it's made to be a kids movie rather than the standard YA fare.

Because that's what George Lucas said he intended when he was interviewed at the time. He uses the word "kids". What age he means by that is probably up for speculation, but he made TPM with his son in mind who would be watching it. Jett Lucas was 8 when TPM came out.

Make of that what you will.

[QuickTidal]

 Abyss, on 24 January 2018 - 04:07 PM, said:

One should keep in mind the context of when each set were made...


OT was made as a Hollywood blockbuster movie trilo in a time when movies made money because if you didn't see them in the theater, you didn't see them, merchandising was a spin-off afterthought, and the internet didn't exist.
PT was made to sell action figures and video games and DVDs with deleted scenes.

Oh, are we pretending that the entire reason that TESB and ROTJ exist the way they do (untouched by studio interference) ISN'T because of merchandise sales? Steve Sandsweet would heartily disagree.

The prequels were no less monetized than the OT was with merch sales.

Merchandise MADE the Star Wars universe.

[D'rek]

 LinearPhilosopher, on 24 January 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

@above, Midochlorians came about as an in plot reason for the council to accept Anakin as a Padawan despite his advanced age.

Let that sink in, the oft despised midichlorians came about because Lucas had trouble writing something else and as a result came up with something that made the series worse.

I don't (and never have) understood why people hate midiclorians so much...

So there's a tiny particle/bacteria in people that is related to the Force and the more Force power you have the more midiclorians you tend to have, making it possible to measure someone's strength with the Force by measuring their amount of midiclorians... what's the problem with that?

How else were they supposed to give Qui-gon a way to know tiny Anakin had a ton of Force-potential? Have 8-year old Anakin lift a giant rock with zero training? (I guess that's how they did it in TLJ...)


Also, re: euro/asian mixed clothing in the prequels -- uh, Darth Vader's weird samurai helmet anyone?

[Nevyn]

 D, on 24 January 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

 LinearPhilosopher, on 24 January 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

@above, Midochlorians came about as an in plot reason for the council to accept Anakin as a Padawan despite his advanced age.

Let that sink in, the oft despised midichlorians came about because Lucas had trouble writing something else and as a result came up with something that made the series worse.

I don't (and never have) understood why people hate midiclorians so much...

So there's a tiny particle/bacteria in people that is related to the Force and the more Force power you have the more midiclorians you tend to have, making it possible to measure someone's strength with the Force by measuring their amount of midiclorians... what's the problem with that?

How else were they supposed to give Qui-gon a way to know tiny Anakin had a ton of Force-potential? Have 8-year old Anakin lift a giant rock with zero training? (I guess that's how they did it in TLJ...)


Also, re: euro/asian mixed clothing in the prequels -- uh, Darth Vader's weird samurai helmet anyone?

You have the force originally (and now again) all about being a mystical concept of the interconnectedness-of-all-things, and then you instead turn it into a dumb pseudo scientific thing. Can't imagine why that was ill received.

How can Qui-gon know the boy is talented? Vader is in a different ship from Luke, who is just flying in a trench, and can sense not only that he is a force user, but that it is "strong" in him.

And aside from the hard turn from the concept of the force up to that point, it also makes the force and the jedi feel more ... pedestrian.

Plus the Jedi are going to have way more problems with PETA.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 24 January 2018 - 05:24 PM

[QuickTidal]

 D, on 24 January 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

Have 8-year old Anakin lift a giant rock with zero training? (I guess that's how they did it in TLJ...)

BOOM.

 D, on 24 January 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

Also, re: euro/asian mixed clothing in the prequels -- uh, Darth Vader's weird samurai helmet anyone?

BOOM 2.

[QuickTidal]

Also, an old post, but still very relevant to my point about the prequels.

[Abyss]

 QuickTidal, on 24 January 2018 - 04:45 PM, said:

 Abyss, on 24 January 2018 - 04:07 PM, said:

One should keep in mind the context of when each set were made...


OT was made as a Hollywood blockbuster movie trilo in a time when movies made money because if you didn't see them in the theater, you didn't see them, merchandising was a spin-off afterthought, and the internet didn't exist.
PT was made to sell action figures and video games and DVDs with deleted scenes.

Oh, are we pretending that the entire reason that TESB and ROTJ exist the way they do (untouched by studio interference) ISN'T because of merchandise sales? Steve Sandsweet would heartily disagree.

The prequels were no less monetized than the OT was with merch sales.

Merchandise MADE the Star Wars universe.

I grant you the Ewoks, but merchandising (and more importantly, licensing) in 1977-83 and what decisions were made because of it don't even scrape the surface of the monster it was by '99.

[QuickTidal]

 Abyss, on 24 January 2018 - 06:34 PM, said:

 QuickTidal, on 24 January 2018 - 04:45 PM, said:

 Abyss, on 24 January 2018 - 04:07 PM, said:

One should keep in mind the context of when each set were made...


OT was made as a Hollywood blockbuster movie trilo in a time when movies made money because if you didn't see them in the theater, you didn't see them, merchandising was a spin-off afterthought, and the internet didn't exist.
PT was made to sell action figures and video games and DVDs with deleted scenes.

Oh, are we pretending that the entire reason that TESB and ROTJ exist the way they do (untouched by studio interference) ISN'T because of merchandise sales? Steve Sandsweet would heartily disagree.

The prequels were no less monetized than the OT was with merch sales.

Merchandise MADE the Star Wars universe.

I grant you the Ewoks, but merchandising (and more importantly, licensing) in 1977-83 and what decisions were made because of it don't even scrape the surface of the monster it was by '99.

Right but THAT push for merchandising started well before that with new versions of ALL the OT toys, in around '96-'97.

And the wave amounts for the new OT figures in '96 were the same as the wave amounts for The Phantom Menace if I'm no mistaken. I will bend that the rest of the merchandise stretched further with tie-ins...but overall I can level most of the same at the OT toys in the old era and the Special Edition era...just in differing amounts because of the era. The concept was still the same. Sell Toys.

Unless figures like Salacious B. Crumb, and Bib Fortuna were not considered totally extraneous toys?

I will make a bet that every character in A New Hope, TESB, and ROTJ had figures/playsets, even the innocuous characters who had no dialogue and little screen time...and there same is true of the prequels. EVERYTHING had toys...The prequels weren't some egregious anomaly in that regard. The OT made toys for random shit too.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 24 January 2018 - 06:50 PM

[Nevyn]

 QuickTidal, on 24 January 2018 - 06:47 PM, said:

Right but THAT push for merchandising started well before that with new versions of ALL the OT toys, in around '96-'97.

And the wave amounts for the new OT figures in '96 were the same as the wave amounts for The Phantom Menace if I'm no mistaken. I will bend that the rest of the merchandise stretched further with tie-ins...but overall I can level most of the same at the OT toys in the old era and the Special Edition era...just in differing amounts because of the era. The concept was still the same. Sell Toys.

Unless figures like Salacious B. Crumb, and Bib Fortuna were not considered totally extraneous toys?

I will make a bet that every character in A New Hope, TESB, and ROTJ had figures/playsets, even the innocuous characters who had no dialogue and little screen time...and there same is true of the prequels. EVERYTHING had toys...The prequels weren't some egregious anomaly in that regard. The OT made toys for random shit too.

Is there a giant plush toy of Porkins? That would be cool.

[QuickTidal]

 Nevyn, on 24 January 2018 - 06:53 PM, said:

 QuickTidal, on 24 January 2018 - 06:47 PM, said:

Right but THAT push for merchandising started well before that with new versions of ALL the OT toys, in around '96-'97.

And the wave amounts for the new OT figures in '96 were the same as the wave amounts for The Phantom Menace if I'm no mistaken. I will bend that the rest of the merchandise stretched further with tie-ins...but overall I can level most of the same at the OT toys in the old era and the Special Edition era...just in differing amounts because of the era. The concept was still the same. Sell Toys.

Unless figures like Salacious B. Crumb, and Bib Fortuna were not considered totally extraneous toys?

I will make a bet that every character in A New Hope, TESB, and ROTJ had figures/playsets, even the innocuous characters who had no dialogue and little screen time...and there same is true of the prequels. EVERYTHING had toys...The prequels weren't some egregious anomaly in that regard. The OT made toys for random shit too.

Is there a giant plush toy of Porkins? That would be cool.

He had a few figures over the years, but never a plush toy sadly.

SDCC did an exclusive bust of him, which is probably PEAK "this character didn't need a figure, let alone a special edition resin BUST" territory.

Behold!

 Porkins2.jpg (105.71K)
Number of downloads: 0

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 24 January 2018 - 06:58 PM

[D'rek]

 Nevyn, on 24 January 2018 - 05:24 PM, said:

 D, on 24 January 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

 LinearPhilosopher, on 24 January 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

@above, Midochlorians came about as an in plot reason for the council to accept Anakin as a Padawan despite his advanced age.

Let that sink in, the oft despised midichlorians came about because Lucas had trouble writing something else and as a result came up with something that made the series worse.

I don't (and never have) understood why people hate midiclorians so much...

So there's a tiny particle/bacteria in people that is related to the Force and the more Force power you have the more midiclorians you tend to have, making it possible to measure someone's strength with the Force by measuring their amount of midiclorians... what's the problem with that?

How else were they supposed to give Qui-gon a way to know tiny Anakin had a ton of Force-potential? Have 8-year old Anakin lift a giant rock with zero training? (I guess that's how they did it in TLJ...)


Also, re: euro/asian mixed clothing in the prequels -- uh, Darth Vader's weird samurai helmet anyone?

You have the force originally (and now again) all about being a mystical concept of the interconnectedness-of-all-things, and then you instead turn it into a dumb pseudo scientific thing. Can't imagine why that was ill received.

How can Qui-gon know the boy is talented? Vader is in a different ship from Luke, who is just flying in a trench, and can sense not only that he is a force user, but that it is "strong" in him.

And aside from the hard turn from the concept of the force up to that point, it also makes the force and the jedi feel more ... pedestrian.

Plus the Jedi are going to have way more problems with PETA.

I don't understand at all. How exactly does midiclorians existing have any effect on whether the Force is a mystical concept of the interconnectedness of all things? If anything, doesn't the fact that even tiny microbes in your body can be affected by the Force make *more* interconnectedness? If some species of lizard on Dagobah could slightly use the Force, wouldn't that be the same thing?

Fair enough on the detection, though, they could have just gone with Qui-gon sensing Anakin's Force potential.

[Adhara]

@Quick Tidal, you appear to be a Star Wars die hard fan. I've never bothered to read the Expanded Universe, so it's very difficult for us to find an agreement. I'm sure you possess a lot of information I lack, but, I'm sorry, perhaps you must cool down; it's a work of fiction and you are not even the author!

Yes, you bring interesting points. I didn’t know Frank Herbert’s reaction to Star Wars and, frankly, I´m surprised, and not in a good way. Common themes don’t make for plagiarism. If Mr. Herbert and Mr. Lucas both took inspiration from The Hero’s Journey, why can’t the two of them coexist in the world? I know that was not your point, but I had to say it.

Is it true what you said about ancient Scotts? Then I retire my words. But now I need an explanation. What is the point in having as a queen an adolescent without experience and not a full adult? May be it´s for ritual purposes; say, they wanted the fertility and the real ruler was another person? Or am I just being ageist? I’m afraid I’m more prejudiced than I believed.

About the costume point, I have to say costumes speak about internal consistency as any other element of a fictional work. But you and D’rek have a point; it’s true that in the original trilogy Asian and European clothes are intermingled… but somehow in the prequels it looks as there were something unfitting… at least to me; it’s a subjective feeling and I can’t give you any reasoning for that… may be it was shocking to me when the same person wore stereotypical European princess clothes and a Manchu inspired outfit. OK, I must be a Liosan bigot. Not, seriously, I’m not using irony here.

And did I make a mistake with my English in my last words? I only wanted to say that Krull is not pretentious and I find the Prequel Trilogy is. Just a matter of personal taste.

[worry]

I'm starting to notice something in the midst of this conversation. Actually it's been nagging at me a long time but I'm finally starting to put my finger on it, and the OT may never be the same to me.

Spoiler

His name is Lando yet he lives in the sky.

[D'rek]

 worry, on 24 January 2018 - 08:58 PM, said:

I'm starting to notice something in the midst of this conversation. Actually it's been nagging at me a long time but I'm finally starting to put my finger on it, and the OT may never be the same to me.

Spoiler

His name is Lando yet he lives in the sky.

This is explained in one of the EU novels. It's custom on Bespin to name yourself backwards, just like how Lobot is not a robot and is always suuuuper high.

[the broken]

Re Naboo, the Queen seems to be intended as a mostly ceremonial office, she signs treaties and dresses up elaborately. Everyone is pretty surprised to realise she's not a pushover. Given that both those styles exist on one planet (Earth), I'm not sure what the issue is that Naboo regalia has multiple styles. A ceremonial head of state that doesn't have much power but can get some by force of personality is not uncommon.

Jar Jar was made a general of an army not expected to succeed by a ruler that dislikes him. He was being sent to die. Boss Nass tries to pull the same trick earlier with the Jedi by sending them through the core full of giant monsters.
Not liking midichlorians is a preference, not a criticism. Which a lot of prequel criticism seems to be, people just go 'Jar Jar' or 'midichlorians' and assume that speaks for itself.

TLJ is not a terrible movie, but it feels... dishonest... to me, for want of a better word.

Spoiler

The New Republic is called out as warmongers when the previous film's backstory laid out that they were overtly pacifist and mothballed most of their fleet.

It presents the Force without lineage as something new instead of how things always worked.

The 'save v destroy' theme would have worked better if they succeeded in saving more people. As is, trying to save people instead of destroying has led to the most catastrophic defeat in the history of the Rebellion. Maybe they ought to go back to destroying, that seemed to work better.

Presents no counterargument to the idea that the Jedi were failures and the only thing Luke passes to Rey is his bad example to avoid.

[worry]

The best thing about that is -- since Star Wars has dudes named Porkins and Elan Sleazebaganno -- I am not quiiiiite sure if you're kidding.

[Nevyn]

 D, on 24 January 2018 - 08:17 PM, said:

I don't understand at all. How exactly does midiclorians existing have any effect on whether the Force is a mystical concept of the interconnectedness of all things? If anything, doesn't the fact that even tiny microbes in your body can be affected by the Force make *more* interconnectedness? If some species of lizard on Dagobah could slightly use the Force, wouldn't that be the same thing?

Fair enough on the detection, though, they could have just gone with Qui-gon sensing Anakin's Force potential.

Its not just some other species connected to the force. It is a prerequisite species to having the ability to use the force.

Again, that is taking something mystical and making it ... pedestrian. It is the wizard being a con artist behind the curtain.

[D'rek]

 Nevyn, on 24 January 2018 - 09:47 PM, said:

 D, on 24 January 2018 - 08:17 PM, said:

I don't understand at all. How exactly does midiclorians existing have any effect on whether the Force is a mystical concept of the interconnectedness of all things? If anything, doesn't the fact that even tiny microbes in your body can be affected by the Force make *more* interconnectedness? If some species of lizard on Dagobah could slightly use the Force, wouldn't that be the same thing?

Fair enough on the detection, though, they could have just gone with Qui-gon sensing Anakin's Force potential.

Its not just some other species connected to the force. It is a prerequisite species to having the ability to use the force.

Again, that is taking something mystical and making it ... pedestrian. It is the wizard being a con artist behind the curtain.

A prerequisite species that resides in the cells of all living things. How is that "being a con artist" ? Midiclorians don't change anything about the mystic nature of the Force or about who can use it or how... they're just an intermediate tool (that all creatures have but I guess only some have learned to use). Just because Harry Potter has to use a wand to cast his magic doesn't make him a muggle con artist compared to if he didn't need a wand. I still don't see how this changes anything...