[QuickTidal]

Silencer, on 20 January 2018 - 07:29 AM, said:

I just want to say, I find it hilarious how after all that complaining about the people who liked TLJ "shutting down" people who didn't like it, the only ones still talking are the people who hate, and they're constantly trying to tear it down over and over again. >.>


For my part, I saw it a second time in the cinema, still love it, everything it did, and think it's one of the best Star Wars movies yet. Not just a good movie, but a good Star Wars movie. And I think if JJ doesn't fuck it up by trying to retcon it to appease the vocal haters (most of whom seem to have a LOT of vested love for "what Star Wars was" i.e. the EU, just saying) then IX will be about a lot of people coming to terms with themselves, and figuring out that you can't just say "I'm sorry" and be redeemed, but committing to making changes in the long term while accepting that people still might hate you for now. And realising that there is a difference between a pointless sacrifice that would not have helped, and a necessary sacrifice to achieve meaningful, long-term change.

But hey, what do I know of "Star Wars", right?

Nevemind Star Wars...it's a poorly constructed, shot, written, and executed film. The ONLY thing in it worth anything is the acting.

The script is a worse mess than most of the stuff you complain about in video game storylines.

Please tell me how this plot hole ridden mess...is a good film. At all.

[Tsundoku]

Oh God please don't start that circular nonsense all over again.

Some people love it, some people hate it and most - ie the rest of us - are in between. Can we please leave it at that?

[Silencer]

Coco with marshmallows, on 20 January 2018 - 09:52 AM, said:

I've never read a single piece of EU, haven't watched the cartoons, my only knowledge of Star Wars comes from the films and I still thought TLJ was poor.

Like I said. "Most".

T, on 20 January 2018 - 11:30 AM, said:

Silencer, on 20 January 2018 - 07:29 AM, said:

I just want to say, I find it hilarious how after all that complaining about the people who liked TLJ "shutting down" people who didn't like it, the only ones still talking are the people who hate, and they're constantly trying to tear it down over and over again. >.>

Bit like brexit then from my pov! I've heard little to nothing from all those who voted to leave; it's those who thought and still think it's a total fuckup of an idea that are the vocal group, and as a result are labelled remoaners. Much like anyone who dares suggest tlj could have been better are now just called haters.

As I said, I'll have to see it again. I'm just not optimistic that I'll suddenly think it's better because I've read some explanations behind the story choices.
I mean, for example, Ackbar killed off screen as an aside? How was that good?
And why, after Carrie's death, go to the trouble of including a Leia death scene, only to have her save herself for another movie she will be unable to star in?

Except you're missing the point (never mind that Brexit has actual objective, serious consequences, and isn't, y'know, a subjective piece of art). Go back ten pages or something and you'll find QT vocally complaining about how his opinion was being "shouted down" - and yet here we are, where it's actually the hate-it crowd who have shouted everyone off the playing field. The only way that's like Brexit is that the loudest and most vocal portion of the fan-base were hypocritically complaining about censorship - unlike Brexit, they now control the discussion entirely.
Because QT isn't suggesting TLJ could have been "better". He's literally hating on it. Says it's the worst, it's ruined the new Star Wars films for him. That's not saying it could have been better (which, if you read my posts earlier in the thread, I agree it could have been - no-one is or was ever saying it's flawless), that's hating on it. So "haters" is entirely accurate. And it's sad that a movie which plenty of people enjoyed has been soured by so much vitriolic debate, but it's worse that it's now become like that here, with a movie that was not actually broken or poorly constructed overall, even if it did have flaws and some people don't like it's perspective or feel it fits into their personal image of "Star Wars". Compared to something like BvS or Suicide Squad, which had actual broken elements, there was nothing in TLJ that outright didn't make sense within the canon of the movies.

Regards Ackbar, while I don't think it was "good", I don't think it was "bad" either. Memetic love for the character aside, he was never major to the movies and didn't need a goddamn funeral scene or anything. Would've been nice to have more impact but I ain't crying over it not being a big deal. He was a b-rank character in the overall plot.

As for Leia, presumably because they'd already shot a lot of footage and had some plot-relevant scenes involving her after that took place after that point of the movie? I agree it would have been timely and efficient to have that scene be the death - but if you're upset at Ackbar not getting a fitting death, can you imagine how you'd have felt if that was how Leia went out? (Bearing in mind at the time they shot that footage, they didn't know she was going to die, so they would have had to do some Tarkin-level CGI to redo those scenes with impact and gravitas and that really would not have felt right.) This one just has to be chalked up to the unforeseen death of a star, you can't pin that on anyone in the creation.

QuickTidal, on 20 January 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

Silencer, on 20 January 2018 - 07:29 AM, said:

I just want to say, I find it hilarious how after all that complaining about the people who liked TLJ "shutting down" people who didn't like it, the only ones still talking are the people who hate, and they're constantly trying to tear it down over and over again. >.>


For my part, I saw it a second time in the cinema, still love it, everything it did, and think it's one of the best Star Wars movies yet. Not just a good movie, but a good Star Wars movie. And I think if JJ doesn't fuck it up by trying to retcon it to appease the vocal haters (most of whom seem to have a LOT of vested love for "what Star Wars was" i.e. the EU, just saying) then IX will be about a lot of people coming to terms with themselves, and figuring out that you can't just say "I'm sorry" and be redeemed, but committing to making changes in the long term while accepting that people still might hate you for now. And realising that there is a difference between a pointless sacrifice that would not have helped, and a necessary sacrifice to achieve meaningful, long-term change.

But hey, what do I know of "Star Wars", right?

Nevemind Star Wars...it's a poorly constructed, shot, written, and executed film. The ONLY thing in it worth anything is the acting.

The script is a worse mess than most of the stuff you complain about in video game storylines.

Please tell me how this plot hole ridden mess...is a good film. At all.

And I disagree entirely. I think it's well constructed, decently shot with some great scenes, and overall well written with some poor choices. I hated the stampede through the casino scene, I really did. But having some bad scenes doesn't make the movie incoherent or anything.

And yes, it still struggles with a sense of time and travel time in this film like it did in TFA. But that's hardly the end of the world.

You'll have to be more clear about the plot-holes, because off the top of my head I can't think of any. Unless you mean the bunch of failures on the part of the heroes, in which case those aren't holes, they're a nice change from "everything goes according to plan, even though we're constantly winging it". Loved what they did with that.

Like I said, I think it's a good movie. It has some downsides, missteps, and so forth. But it's a solid 7 on the scale, while I rate TFA closer to a 9 for its notable lack of flaws. Compared to the vastly inferior prequels, it downright shines. The fight scene in Snoke's room was suitably epic (WITH VIBROBLADES GODDAMNIT), the emotion and awesome of the bombing run on the Dreadnaught was excellent, the scenes with Rey in "training" were fantastic for developing her character and relationship to the Force, I really liked Luke's character and the casual toss of the saber, even that scene with the Porgs and Chewie was nice. I liked the amount of time spent to developing Poe from ace pilot with a bit of a problem with authority into someone who can lead, who knows the value of every life on a mission. I really liked the bit with Hux starting to draw his blaster while Kylo was unconscious, that was some excellent character work for such a small scene, they did a great job with Snoke and Kylo's interactions and selling Snoke as a threat for someone who had basically no real development in the first film and was in about two scenes here (still think it's a shame he died in this one, though), the white-and-red salt imagery was great, and the final duel between Luke and Kylo was really well done and fit Luke's philosophy to a T. I thought the introduction and use of Benicio del Toro's character was surprisingly good, and BB-8 as usual was really well done. Also liked that they gave Phasma's ridiculously chrome armor some function to go with the flash, even if overall I'm still disappointed with the character and felt that, once again, Finn's interactions with Phasma gave us the most cringe-worthy dialogue in the film. I enjoyed Finn's development too - going from someone who wanted to run away to someone willing to sacrifice himself for the cause felt pretty organic even if his arc was more definitively the b-plot in this film. I enjoyed Rose too, right up until the sexual assault scene (didn't think that level of relationship had been earned yet, never mind the actual problems with an unannounced, unsolicited kiss). But I thought it really nailed the sense of desperation, futility, and left just that tiny spark of hope they'd been going about the whole damn film when it finished up. In that sense, yeah, I thought it was a good film. Really enjoyed it. Still sad that you didn't.

[Traveller]

Ah, I don't know where I am. I have to see it again I guess. I would rather like it than not, and I flip from reading about it and feeling positive, to recalling how I felt watching certain parts and feeling negative.

My brother was in agreement with me immediately after watching, but he's seen it a second time and is sounding more positive about it now.

I didn't initially like a lot about the prequels, and where they still contain some awful, awful examples of film making (see Mr Plinketts review of Attack of the Clones on YouTube if you want a laugh) I can accept their flaws and see them a bit like some of the weaker episodes of Clone Wars. (Lightsaber fights underwater?! That 50s diner in AotCs!) Let's face it, there has already been a lot of crap in the SW universe; I guess there's nothing in TLJ that is quite as bad as some of what appeared in the prequels.

Still undecided, as you can see.

This post has been edited by T'rav Elar: 21 January 2018 - 12:27 PM

[QuickTidal]

Silencer, on 20 January 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

And I disagree entirely. I think it's well constructed, decently shot with some great scenes, and overall well written with some poor choices. I hated the stampede through the casino scene, I really did. But having some bad scenes doesn't make the movie incoherent or anything.

And yes, it still struggles with a sense of time and travel time in this film like it did in TFA. But that's hardly the end of the world.

You'll have to be more clear about the plot-holes, because off the top of my head I can't think of any. Unless you mean the bunch of failures on the part of the heroes, in which case those aren't holes, they're a nice change from "everything goes according to plan, even though we're constantly winging it". Loved what they did with that.

I think I've broken this out before on the thread, but I'm willing to do it again in a more comprehensive way.

Let's start with plotholes/script contrivances:

Let's be clear, I consider the entire script a paint-by-numbers that Rian assembled with one point he wanted to make dictating the other points he made. As far as I'm concerned he came up with a bunch of "cool" scenes and strung them together by cobbling in scipt choices that GET the charcters there. It's not organic in any way as a STORY. It's a script full of NOTIONS.

- The end of TFA has the First Order in tentative retreat, their massive base destroyed along with a massive, massive portion of their military and soliders who were on world when SKB blew. The Resistance base on D'Qar celebrates the victory, and is seemignly ascendant. TLJ (from the very words of Johnson himself) begins right after TFA (I'm willing to give it a couple of days between)...but the crawl of TLJ has the First Order REIGNING....apparently. Not only that but the Resitance is on the run in small numbers. So the disconnect between the state of the galaxy in TFA and TLJ is a big plot hole to begin with.

- Rian needed a plotine where Poe was a dissident who went off book, causing a bunch of branching problems (will note later) that lead to the events later in the movie...but to start with he needed to kick off the slow motion chase through space. Now, he CAN'T have Leia be nominally in charge to get Poe to catalyse that plotline, becuasse Leia and Poe have a history where he's the rash captain and she's the underdstanding/forgiving commander. So that doesn't get Rian's script where he needs it to get. Same goes for Admiral Ackbar, as he is a stalwart and tried and true veteran of the Rebellion...so he would also understand and trust Poe with any plans. So Rian has a bridge explosion where Leia is thrown into a coma and Ackbar is (unceremoniously fucking) killed....so that he can do what? Introduce a brand new character that even Poe (as a character) doesn't KNOW or have a relationship with. Why? To have her not trust Poe, AND hide the plan from him (her ostensibly lead captain, even though he was demoted....as nominal leader of Black Squadron he is the next underling below her), so that Rian can enact both the slow motion chase AND the eventual "escape plan"...and hiding that plan from Poe triggers the ENTIRE Canto Bight sideplot...without Holdo EXISTING you don't get ANY of that plot, and you especially don't end up with a plot that ends in the lightspeed attack (cool as that scene was) or the escape to the planet below.

- Slow mo chase. The First Order can and should be able to blow the Reistance ships out of space. At no point in the chase are the Reistacne ever completely out of the FO's rech...and becuase they can be tracked through hyperspace...they don't jump...just run. There is zero reason to not attack them in full force, including fighter squadrons...the reason? Rian needs the slow motion chase to occur, so that the Canot Bight plotline happens, the Reistacne is betaryed, and the Crait plotline happens. So the main plotline of the film is one big plothole BECUASE Rian wanted Crait to happen. That's it. It makes zero sense in the history of Star Wars. If Thrawn had the Resistance in his sights and chasing them...he'd have destroyed them. so either every commnander (incluing smarty-pants Snoke) in the FO is a MORON...or Rian Johnson's script doens't work without these big gaping plotholes...guess which one is more likely?

- Speaking of the escape to Crait. Let's dig into a few GLARING omissions/holes. No one in any of the outer rim planets reposnds to the hails for help. You get that? Entire systems and everyone who was ever connected to the Republic...is ignoring distress signals on multiple planets that could help (either by providing safe haven, or sending ships)....but nada. No one. That is one of the most unbelievable things in the film. that the galaxy is SO seemingly small that no one has the stones to help. That's nonsense....but again it serves only one thing. Rian's Script calls for the Resistance fleet to be helplessly slow motion chased thorugh space, to eventually end up on a planet with no one but crustal foxes...to trigger his end game in that planet. There is NO oher reason for the galaxy to react like that en masse, esepcially after gaining freedom 29 years ago from the Empire. No WAY an entire galaxy of free systems thinks "Oh, new Empire like people are trying to take control of the galaxy? Better just ignore it, it will be fine" Lothal at the VERY least would have responded, let alone Cosruscant.

- The Canto Bight plotline. Let's begin with arrival. Finn and Rose land on this Monaco-like city and park on a secret goddamned mission...in the middle of the fucking BEACH. They don't even attempt to hide the ship in the bush, or up on the bluffs they end up on later. Nope. Covert mission? Better park in the middle of the most conspicious place we can find. And what ends them up in jail? A PARKING INFRACTION. Got that? Now, why does all this happen? Becuase once again Rian's script calls for it to make a bunch of other stuff happen. He needs someone to betray the Resitance to the First Order including their escape plan to Crait. So he has the two protags land in a stupid place, get a parking infraction, and end up (while looking for a code hacker that Maz reccomended) in a jail cell...with ...you guessed it ANOTHER CODE HACKER. What a lovely, dovetailed COINCIDENCE! But ths one is sketchy and doens't come with the level of trust that Maz's reccomendation did (that would be Jennifer Aniston's hubby). Perfect, Rian thinks, he can betray them then! I have no issues with the fact that there is failure in it...that's fine. My problem is that Rian johnson CONSTANTLY needs shit to happpen later in his movie, and writes backwards from that thing to get them there. The entrie Canto Bight plotline exists to serve the "get the Rebels on Crait, and the Reistance to know about it,...so we can have the FO VS Resistance plotline, and the Kylo VS Luke one" That's it. You get that? He designed an ENTIRE failing sideplot...just to make other things happen in his script. The level of inorganic that is from a storytelling POV is STAGGERING. So it's not that the Canto Bight plotline ends in failure...it's that the whole thing is created for another reason ans serve that plot instead, and it's full of wierd contreivances and holes as a result of the fact that it HAS to go nowhere intersting for either Rose or Finn. I think he even RELAIZES this, so he has him at least face off against Phasma one more time to TRY to make Finn's plot in this movie be worthwhile. It's not. But that's why he did that.

- Luke. Aside from my obvious issues with Luke's storyline in TLJ...le's dip into plot holes. Luke says in TLJ "I came here to die, and for the Jedi to end"...but if that was ACTUALLY the case....why go to the planet that the Imperials records (That's where the map in TFA comes from, Palpatine's map of the Jedi temple locaitons so he could hunt them down and exterminate them; R2 gets it in ANH when he logs into the Death Star [according to JJ Abrams]) SAY is the planet with the First Jedi temple? Seems like that's a REALLY quick way to get found by the First Order who HAVE access to Imperial records like that. He may as well have hid out ON Starkiller base with a blinking sign "Kylo, look here". Ben Solo and Luke spent like 5 years seeking out old Jedi locaitons and studied them...so he "hid" in a place that he woudl eventually have been found. If he REALLY wanted to die and end the Jedi Order...he'd have gone to an outer rim planet with no connections to the Jedi...so this was one of the MYRIAD of shit that Rian dind't like in JJ's script, so he wrote it out and left a plothole instead. He also pursepoely doesn't have Force Ghost Anakin or Force Ghost Obi-Wan show up becuase they woudl BOTH have insight into dealing with a jedi with darkness in them who could be turned back. So he has Luke cut himself off from the force...and then when he recononects...just Yoda, and long after Kylo is gone to the dark side. The ghosts in any normal script would have appeared together (as they did in ROTJ) and guided him through the rebuilding of the Jedi Order...but Rian didn't want that becuase he wanted to wipe the table of the old charaxcters instead. He wants untrained Rey to lead that instead...for some inexplcable reason. So just Yoda shows up, which is glaringly stupid and inorganic considering the hisotry of the ghosts and their nature.

- Crait. On Crait we have two glaring plotholes. One is that the Reistance gets into the Rebel base and whoever epxlores it is INCOMPETENT...becuase they say "there is no back way out"...necessetating the hail mary run aginst the First Order...but when the Crystal Foxes show there Is a back route out...the "way" is a cave opening the size of a goddamned hosue...so apprently whoever did recon was a disabled blind chimp? Becuase I coudl undertsand them missing a small hole...but they miss a MASSIVE CAVE. Why? Becuase Rian wanted the Resiatnce VS FO on Crait like Hoth. He even puts in one more contrivance to get Luke's plotline VS Kylo. He has Finn do a run aginst the door buster laser...but has Rose STOP him before he does the damage he would have done(say what you will, even if he died in teh attempt, the debris from his ship would have damaged the laser canon and allowed a rEbel escape) so that we can get to Luke VS Kylo.

-The concept of connecting to the force with a vision across the vast distance of space....Easy for Snoke to do to connect Rey & Kylo for the whole film....no problem...but Kylo tells Rey that SHE can't be doig it becuase the effort would kill her. This is Rian's scrit point/reason why Luke dies later when he does it. But if we believe that then we believe that Snoke is more powerful than Luke...which makes no sense because Snoke was terrified of Luke. Why would he be afraid of a guy he's obviosuly stronger than if his skill tree is higher?

-smaller stuff like how does Rey get down to Crait, is still a plothole but minor enough to ignore.

There are a bunch of story elemnts that also don't work with rergards to canon...but moreover those are my personal preference and don't pertain.

Rian doesn't like TFA. Didn't like the plot strands JJ left hanging, so he wrote a FIRST film in a trilogy...instead of a sequel and a middle film and fuck everyhting else. Nothing in his film works with TFA as the predecessor. Nothing. In fact, even character motivations in TLJ are not the same as they were in TLJ, with the possible exception of Kylo and MAYBE Rey. Everyone else acts strangely. When I watch TFA and (if I ever watch it again) chase it wiht TLJ...I can't fathom how disconncted they will be.

But the main glut of my post was to illustrate how it's a bad FILM and not just a bad Star Wars film. Rian Johnson needs to go back to film school and take the scriptwirting course again and stop taking lessons from M. Night Shamylan.

It's a paint-by-numbers flick that only works in any way, becuase he penned a whole bunch of little contrivances to make the big ones work...which without those contrivances DON'T work even a little bit.

[Nevyn]

QuickTidal, on 21 January 2018 - 03:03 PM, said:

- Rian needed a plotine where Poe was a dissident who went off book, causing a bunch of branching problems (will note later) that lead to the events later in the movie...but to start with he needed to kick off the slow motion chase through space. Now, he CAN'T have Leia be nominally in charge to get Poe to catalyse that plotline, becuasse Leia and Poe have a history where he's the rash captain and she's the underdstanding/forgiving commander. So that doesn't get Rian's script where he needs it to get. Same goes for Admiral Ackbar, as he is a stalwart and tried and true veteran of the Rebellion...so he would also understand and trust Poe with any plans. So Rian has a bridge explosion where Leia is thrown into a coma and Ackbar is (unceremoniously fucking) killed....so that he can do what? Introduce a brand new character that even Poe (as a character) doesn't KNOW or have a relationship with. Why? To have her not trust Poe, AND hide the plan from him (her ostensibly lead captain, even though he was demoted....as nominal leader of Black Squadron he is the next underling below her), so that Rian can enact both the slow motion chase AND the eventual "escape plan"...and hiding that plan from Poe triggers the ENTIRE Canto Bight sideplot...without Holdo EXISTING you don't get ANY of that plot, and you especially don't end up with a plot that ends in the lightspeed attack (cool as that scene was) or the escape to the planet below.

This part is worse that you describe.

Holdo doesn't just not trust Poe. Poe isn't the only one in the mutiny. She doesn't tell half the captains/others in the resistance and perhaps more.

She doesn't even tell them at the point at which they are starting a mutiny and confronting her. I guess she knows that Leia is going to wake up and stop it.

And earlier in the not telling game, Poe believes she has no plan whatsoever, but does not tell her the plan he has concocted with Finn. When getting a somehow unknown commander to start to trust you would involve consulting them on a plan, and provide an opportunity for them to tell you there already is one.

The entire movie hinges on this.

And not only can they not make any of it consistent with any of the characters, if they were going to try, the way to do it would be to spend more time building tension between the characters, or introduce a valid reason for distrust. But Rian already had a 2.5 hour movie and he doesn't have time to try to make the mutiny make sense. Just like he doesn't have time to have Luke attacking Kylo make sense, to have Rey be trained at all, or to explain how Rey got from the confrontation with Kylo onto the millenium falcon. All of which is made worse by the many ways he wasted screentime on bad subplots and bad jokes.

[QuickTidal]

I accept plot holes in lots of media to enjoy the story...Doctor Who chief among them...but the ones in TLJ are grade school bad and stood out a mile to me and actively affect my enjoyment.

[Silencer]

@QT - I'm not going to go through that point list by list, we'll just have to agree to disagree (and note that you've excused far worse in the past, to boot), especially having watched TFA immediately before my second viewing of TLJ where I thought it followed on very well. And I'll point out that most of those complaints can be just as readily leveled at, say The Empire Strikes Back. Guess I'll just have to avoid this thread if I want discussion of the Star Wars movies in future.

[Morgoth]

Silencer, on 22 January 2018 - 09:39 AM, said:

@QT - I'm not going to go through that point list by list, we'll just have to agree to disagree (and note that you've excused far worse in the past, to boot), especially having watched TFA immediately before my second viewing of TLJ where I thought it followed on very well. And I'll point out that most of those complaints can be just as readily leveled at, say The Empire Strikes Back. Guess I'll just have to avoid this thread if I want discussion of the Star Wars movies in future.

I personally find it rather refreshing to be in agreement with QT about a major release. I thought the movie was deeply mediocre and very disappointing. I have little hope for the final movie being particularly interesting.

[QuickTidal]

Silencer, on 22 January 2018 - 09:39 AM, said:

@QT - I'm not going to go through that point list by list, we'll just have to agree to disagree (and note that you've excused far worse in the past, to boot), especially having watched TFA immediately before my second viewing of TLJ where I thought it followed on very well. And I'll point out that most of those complaints can be just as readily leveled at, say The Empire Strikes Back. Guess I'll just have to avoid this thread if I want discussion of the Star Wars movies in future.

Why would you avoid the thread? There are lots of people here who totally agree with you about the film and your enjoyment of it. I'm just a dissident who enjoys debating it.

I guess the biggest point I wanted to make is that Rian Johnson didn't tell me a story that he dreamed up. He told me a bunch of cool scenes (throne room scene, battle on Crait, Opening bomber sequence, ect.) that he came up with, and then came up with a whole string of weird contrivances to make them all occur.

Morgoth, on 22 January 2018 - 12:47 PM, said:

I personally find it rather refreshing to be in agreement with QT about a major release.

Indeed. It's usually you and I disagree about the bigger movies. Huzzah!

It's actually VERY weird to be on this side of the opinion of a Star Wars movie...it's never happened before. I've at least liked every Star Wars movie in SOME fashion (even portions of ATOC) prior to this.

Disliking one on this level is a new feeling for me.

[Nevyn]

Silencer, on 22 January 2018 - 09:39 AM, said:

And I'll point out that most of those complaints can be just as readily leveled at, say The Empire Strikes Back. Guess I'll just have to avoid this thread if I want discussion of the Star Wars movies in future.

It seems to me the defenders of the movie like to throw statements like that out without quantifying it, and to avoid addressing the specific problems of TLJ.

No, you can't make the same complaints about empire. It picked up from its previous movie better, focused the plot where it needed to be better, had way fewer plot holes, and set up the final movie better.


The last bit is the part that has bugging me most as of late. Not only do I not feel like re-watching TLJ, I have zero anticipation for the last movie. It might be the first SW movie I never bother to see in theatres. And sure, part of that is Johnson messing with the formula, and a bad movie lead in. But I still had anticipation for Episode III, which had an awful lead in.

Johnson has left nothing to set up the next movie. He just did whatever he wanted knowing that was someone else's problem, and they'll rely on the brand he tarnished to gets butts in seats. Seriously, there is hardly any resistance left, but Johnson has told everyone that doesn't matter because they are inspiring the next generation. The first order has two bumbling leaders and has screwed up just about every on screen thing they have tried, and still comfortably in charge. Rey and Kylo have no basis to improve their skills and have confronted one another directly twice. There is no one to rescue. There is no mystery to get the answer to (other than "how will they kill Leia"?) JJ could take 10 years to make it and I wouldn't care.

[QuickTidal]

Nevyn, on 22 January 2018 - 03:03 PM, said:

Johnson has left nothing to set up the next movie.

This is key. He's literally re-set the board at zero again. The Empire VS The Rebels, Rebels in retreat, Empire dominant, one side with a madman who uses the force (like a Sith), and the other side with a plucky, young Jedi just learning helping the remaining rebels fight the good fight. He essentially remade his OWN A New Hope with TLJ...instead of telling the middle chapter of the Sequels trilogy...as such, the third movie has ALL KINDS of heavy lifting to do that it should never have to do. The 3rd film should be the payoff for everything that was set up in Film 1, and deepened-as-stakes in Film 2. Instead, Rian Johnson made film 1 again, and expects film 3 to finish off.

Some perspective on that.

TFA barely touches on introducing the Knights of Ren.
Instead of fleshing them out, TLJ ignores them entirely.
As such, film 3 has the arduous task of not only introducing them properly, but fleshing them out AND giving them a satisfying arc...in 2 hours. Or it ignores them and it's just one more thing that Rian destroyed from JJ's set up in Film 1 and it will be a trilogy anomaly that is never mentioned again.

And that's just one aspect Rian's board re-set has caused.

JJ has to essentially make a third film that also functions from a narrative standpoint as the 2nd AND 3rd.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 22 January 2018 - 03:45 PM

[LinearPhilosopher]

Here's the question i have.

With the giant amount of content within the EU and the various established characters, why does it seem as if rather than drawing on elements of EU to create a great story with compelling characters, we get two movies where they feel they need to re-invent the wheel and come up with a worse product.

Not saying they have to keep the EU, but guarantee there's some good ideas in the EU that would be a great inspiration for a better pair of films.

Instead we get one film where the main characters gets powerups as the plot commands like in every bad shounen show and any attempt at originality is eventually replaced with poor callbacks to previous films

And a second film, which fixes the problems i had with our MC but has questionable plot lines and quite frankly, contrived plot lines.


Though at the same time, it should be noted, prequel trilogy was bad (yet still well received) and even the original trilogy wasn't all that well received. Maybe this is simply a case of rose colored glasses glossing over what was originally a flawed work.

[Abyss]

Ewoks.




The solution to all of these problems is Ewoks.

[Nevyn]

Abyss, on 22 January 2018 - 06:27 PM, said:

Ewoks.




The solution to all of these problems is Ewoks.

You mean, have your cute marketing gimmicks be important to the plot in some way? Rian says no.

[Abyss]

Nevyn, on 22 January 2018 - 06:47 PM, said:

Abyss, on 22 January 2018 - 06:27 PM, said:

Ewoks.




The solution to all of these problems is Ewoks.

You mean, have your cute marketing gimmicks be important to the plot in some way? Rian says PORGSSSSSSSSS.

ftfy

[QuickTidal]

LinearPhilosopher, on 22 January 2018 - 06:10 PM, said:

Though at the same time, it should be noted, prequel trilogy was bad (yet still well received) and even the original trilogy wasn't all that well received. Maybe this is simply a case of rose colored glasses glossing over what was originally a flawed work.

I agree, and the prequel trilogy...as bad as it may have been at times...at least told one coherent story in three acts. A Beginning, a middle, and an end. Cohesively told.

With the new trilogy:

JJ and Kasdan wantend to/needed to touch nostalgic and be a bit of ANH with other stuff in play.
Rian Johnson ALSO wanted to tell his OWN first movie, and threw out most of what JJ and Kasdan laid out for his own push forward.
JJ and Chris Terrio (JUSTICE LEAGUE....let that sink in) have to now bring that home by once again upping the stakes to a final act and find ways to finish the story that Rian set up freshly, while ignoring JJ's first film points.

So yeah, it's annoying that instead of the powers that be (Kat Kennedy and the writers of the new trilogy, disparate though they may be) instead of looking at the established EU and thinking things like:

Thrawn is a solid choice for a villain after six films of force users, let's use a military genius instead. How do we use him in the new films?
Mara Jade is a wonderfully complex character to juxtapose against Luke, and one who is connected to the OT with regards to Palpatine/Sidious....how do we use her in our new canon?
How do we advance the characters from the OT into new roles? Leia as Chancellor of a young Republic, Luke as a Jedi Master training the next generation of Jedi and how they FIT politically into the galaxy that MAY not trust them? Han wrangling himself into the role of statesman, ect.

They went. Let's ditch everything, and jam up a new canon with brand new characters....but largely tell the same story the OT did with new faces...Classic characters are also reset. Han and Chewie went back to smuggling. Leia is once again in charge of a Rebel cell. Luke is once again an uncertain force user who doesn't know how to fit into the galactic plans the he fails. Threepio is an "Hi, I'm here!" *waves* and R2 is non-existent while his replacement (BB-8) is piloting Imperial walkers for sight gags and rescues.

It's so tone deaf.

But yeah, biggest gripe is a lack of overall plan for the trilogy....they set out instead to make three different new movies...and NO one fucking talked about where it was all going.

EDIT: Query. Is this movie for kids like Star Wars has always been? It doesn't feel like it.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 22 January 2018 - 07:04 PM

[Salt-Man Z]

QuickTidal, on 22 January 2018 - 07:03 PM, said:

EDIT: Query. Is this movie for kids like Star Wars has always been? It doesn't feel like it.

I mean, it's not the kids who have seen it that have been doing all the complaining.

I'm not even sure what "for kids" means, really: my 8-yr-old daughter still likes Rogue One the best, I believe--and that's easily the least "for kids" of any of them.

[QuickTidal]

Salt-Man Z, on 22 January 2018 - 10:35 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 22 January 2018 - 07:03 PM, said:

EDIT: Query. Is this movie for kids like Star Wars has always been? It doesn't feel like it.

I mean, it's not the kids who have seen it that have been doing all the complaining.

I'm not even sure what "for kids" means, really: my 8-yr-old daughter still likes Rogue One the best, I believe--and that's easily the least "for kids" of any of them.

I go based on the fact that the toy sales for TLJ have been abysmal, and my 9 year old nephew was bored and scared in equal measure by it. He said it didn't feel like a Star Wars movie like TFA did. Take that as you will. He's not exactly Roger Ebert.

[worry]

I think every person who didn't like it should have to live in a studio apartment with someone who did, for one whole month, and that should be a TV show.