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Arathan

#121 User is offline   Puck 

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 05:28 PM

Now it's my turn to laugh.. Too personal for Shadowthrone? Seriously? You sure you are talking about the one god who takes everything personally? Including deluding himself into thinking HE summoned the Hounds of Light? :D

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The cult of Rashan had not taken well the ascension of Ammanas – Shadowthrone – and the Rope into positions of penultimate power within the Warren of Shadow. Though Heboric's knowledge of the details was sketchy at best, it seemed that the cult had torn itself apart. Blood had been spilled within temple walls, and in the aftermath of desecrating murder, only those who acknowledged the mastery of the new gods remained among the devotees. To the wayside, bitter and licking deep wounds, the banished slunk away.
[HoC, Chapter Seven]


Alright, I'll admit that we do not know for sure, hence 'general' consensus. However, I will add one thing and that is that I am sick of this whole 'there's no such thing as general consensus with Erikson'. It's an idiotic argument, and if we started operating on that, we might as well just stop talking altogether. Present me a theory that contradicts me and makes sense, and back it up with quotes from the books, then we can talk. I make a point of being able to do so whenever I claim something, and I have found a funny something and that is that a lot of the things in the books people seem to claim to be contradictions/never explained, are not.

This post has been edited by Puck: 11 February 2015 - 05:51 PM

Puck was not birthed, she was cleaved from a lava flow and shaped by a fierce god's hands. - [worry]
Ninja Puck, Ninja Puck, really doesn't give a fuck..? - [King Lear]
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#122 User is offline   heavymetaltroll 

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 03:07 AM

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However, I will add one thing and that is that I am sick of this whole 'there's no such thing as general consensus with Erikson'. It's an idiotic argument, and if we started operating on that, we might as well just stop talking altogether.


It may be an idiotic argument, but using general consensus as an argument is in itself just as idiotic. If you don't like people using the "there is no such thing as general consensus with Erikson" argument, then don't use general consensus as an argument to prove your point.

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Present me a theory that contradicts me and makes sense, and back it up with quotes from the books, then we can talk.



I thought my theory did make sense, and you still haven't contradicted it conclusively to make me change my mind. I had used a quote from the books, I believe it is in HoC though I'm not certain it was that book. The part where QB outmaneuvers ST, "Delat! You shape-shifting Bastard!"


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The cult of Rashan had not taken well the ascension of Ammanas – Shadowthrone – and the Rope into positions of penultimate power within the Warren of Shadow. Though Heboric's knowledge of the details was sketchy at best, it seemed that the cult had torn itself apart. Blood had been spilled within temple walls, and in the aftermath of desecrating murder, only those who acknowledged the mastery of the new gods remained among the devotees. To the wayside, bitter and licking deep wounds, the banished slunk away.
[HoC, Chapter Seven]




Wow, that is a great quote, your quote-fu is very strong. I had actually forgotten this part and it is a fairly decent argument. However, does it not contradict the next chapter of HoC? From chapter 8, scene 7, page 388 in theBantam Books paper back edition:


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The cult of Rashan was spared the purges of the new, harsh masters of Seven Cities, for it was a recognized religion. Other temples did not fare as well. She recalled seeing smoke in the sky above Ehrlitan and wondering at its source, and she was awakened at night by terrible sounds of chaos in the streets.
Lostara was a middling Caster. Her shadow seemed to have a mind of its own and was a recalcitrant, halting partner in the training. She did not ask herself if she was happy or otherwise. Rashan's Empty Throne did not draw her faith as it did the other students'. She lived, but it was an unquestioning life. Neither circular nor linear, for in her mind there was no movement at all, and the notion of progress was measured only in terms of mastering the exercises force upon her.
The cults destruction was sudden, unexpected, and it came from within.
She recalled the night when it had all begun. Great excitement in the temple. A High Priest from another city was visiting. Come to speak with Master Bidithal on matters of vast importance. There would be a dance in the stranger's honour, for which Lostara and her fellow students would provide a background sequence of rhythms to complement the Shadow Dancers.
Lostara herself had been indifferent to the whole affair, and had been nowhere close to the best of the students in their minor role in the performance. But she remembered the stranger.
So unlike sour old Bidithal. Tall, thin, a laughing face, remarkably long fingered, almost effeminate hands-hands the sight of which awakened in her new emotions.
Emotions that stuttered her mechanical dancing, that sent her shadow twisting into a rhythm that was counterpoint to that cast by not only her fellow students, but the Shadow Dancers themselves-as if a thitd strain had slipped into the main chamber.
Too striking to remain unnoticed.
Bidithal himself, his face darkening, had half risen-but the stranger spoke first.
'Pray let the Dance continue,' he said, his eyes finding Lostara's own. 'The Song of the Reeds has never been performed in quite this manner before. No gentle breeze here, eh, Bidithal? Oh no, a veritable gale.The Dancers are virgins,yes?' His laugh was low yet full. 'Yet there is nothing virginalabout this dance, now, is there? Oh, storm of desire!'
And those eyes held Lostara still, in fullest recognition of the desire that overwhelmed her-that gave shape to her shadow's wild cavort. Recognition, and a certain pleased. but cool... acknowledgement. As if flattered, but with no invitation offered in return.
The stranger had other tasks that night-and in the nights that followed-or so Lostara would come to realize much later. At the moment, however, her face burned with shame, and she had broken off her dance to flee the chamber.
Of course, Delat had not come to steal the heart of a caster. He had come to destroy Rashan.
Delat, who, it proved, was both a High Priest and a Bridgeburner, and whatever the Emperor's reason for annihilating the cult, his was the hand that delivered the death-blow.
Although not alone. The night of the killings, at the bell of the third hour-two past midnight-after the Song of Reeds, there had been another, hidden in the black clothes of an assassin...
Lostara knew more of what had happened that night in the Rashan Temple of Ehrlitan than anyone else barring the players themselves, for Lostara had been the only resident to be spared. Or so she had believed for a long time, until the name of Bidithal rose once more, from Sha'ik's Apocalypse army.
Ah, I was more than spared that night, wasn't I?
Delat's lovely, long-fingered hands...




And then a couple of pages later:


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The small room before her was filled with dancing shadows
And in their midst, a figure. A pale face of firm features, made handsome by smile lines at the corners of the eyes-and the eyes themselves, which, as he looked upon her, settled like depthless pools.
Into which she felt, in a sudden rush, she could plunge. Here, now, for ever.
The figure made a slight bow with his head, then spoke, 'Lostara Yil. You may doubt my words, but I remember you-'
She stepped back, her back pressing up against the wall, and shook her head. 'I do not know you,' she whispered.
'True. But there were three of us that night, so very long ago in Ehrlitan. I was witness to your... unexpected performance. Did you know Delat-or, rather, the man I would eventually learn was Delat-would have taken you for his own? Not just the one night. You would have joined him as a Bridgeburner, and that would well have pleased him. Or so I believe. No way to test it, alas, since it all went-outwardly-so thoroughly awry.'
'I remember,' she said.
The man shrugged. 'Delat, who had a different name for that mission and was my partner's responsibility besides-Delat let Bidithal go. I suppose it seemed a... a betrayel, yes? It certainly did to my partner. Certainly to this day Shadowthrone-who was not Shadowthrone then, simply a particularly adept and ambitious practitioner of Rashan's sister warren, Meanas-to this day, I was saying, Shadowthrone stokes eternal fires of vengeance. But Delat roved very capable of hiding... under our very noses. Like Kalam. Just another unremarked soldier in the ranks of the Bridgeburners.'
'I do not know who you are.'
The man smiled. 'Ah, yes, I am well ahead of myself...' His gaze fell to the shadows spread long before him, though his back was to an unlit, closed door, and his smile broadened as if he was reconsidering those words. 'I am Cotillion, Lostara Yil. Back then, I was Dancer, and yes, you can well guess the significance of that name, given what you were being trained to do. Of course, in Seven Cities, certain truths of the cult had been lost, in particular the true nature of Shadow Dancing. It was never meant for performance, Lostara. It was, in fact, an art most martial. Assassination.'




These passages seem to inherently disprove all that Heboric said, as the cult of Rashan was destroyed long before Shadowthrone claimed the Throne of Shadow. This kind of throws out my theory on QB leaving the shadow cult being the reason ST had such a grudge against QB as this gives the reason, but it also supports my original theory that QB was initially more aligned with Darkness than Shadow. As to when QB left the shadow cult, that is a bit murkier (as it should be with Shadow). If it was then that QB left the cult, it wouldn't have been ST's cult as Rashan was clearly different to what would later become Shadowthrones cult, and wouldn't explain QB's assertion that he did in fact rise far in that cult. Personally I think at the time QB had already switched from the cult of Rashan to the cult of Meanas, and this is why he helped Kallenved and Dancer destroy Rashan. While in hiding in the Bridgeburners he was still a High Priest of Shadow under a different identity so Kallenved would not know him and be able to exact his vengeance. QB stayed a hidden member of the Shadow cult until some time after Kallenved ascended to Shadowthrone, and it was only when he discovered ST's previous identity did he burn his Vestments of Office and finally leave the cult for good, for fear ST would discover who he really was. This seems to me the most likely and logical version of events.
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