[Baaljagg]

During a reread of DHG I noticed a reference that has gone unnoticed to me previously. When Apt and her human familiar are in the shadow warren chatting with Uncle (I do so love the Uncle title he gives himself!!!) Cotillion, the human boy with the funky eye asks Uncle Cotillion if he has children. He replies that he has a daughter of sorts, but is estranged from her. The boy tells Uncle Cotillion that he should go to her and she will forgive him. The Rope replies that it is he who would do the forgiving (not that he would!) as his (sort of) daughter is the one who betrayed him. This leads me to think he is referring to Laseen, who certainly betrayed him. Does this mean he trained Surly as his prodigy and possible eventual successor, who obviously got a little bit too ambitious? The "sort of" comment makes me think that he means a daughter not of his blood, but of his heart (when he had one) and/or mind. Or does he mean he had a daughter, but no longer thinks of her as his blood because of the betrayal. Any thoughts on this?

This post has been edited by Baaljagg: 21 October 2012 - 01:43 AM

[Defiance]

Heh, nice theory but you're way off.


Dear old Uncle Cotillion is talking about Apsalar (Sorry).

I don't recall Cotillion saying that his "daughter" was the one who betrayed them. Could you type up in the entire quote? If anything, it would be him betraying her - he regrets possessing her and obviously they're not quite on speaking terms (given that he possessed her with no permission and made her do some pretty terrible things).

[Acorn]

Quote

Panek broke in. 'Uncle, do you have any children?'

He winced, looked aawy. 'A daughter. Of sorts.' He sighed, then wryly. 'We had a falling-out, I'm afraid.'

'You must forgive her.'

'Damned upstart!'

'You said we must teach each other, Uncle.'

Cotillion's eyes widened on the lad, then he shook his head. 'The forgiveness is the other way around, alas.'

'Then I muse meet her.'

'Well, anything is possible--'

Apt spoke.

Cotillion scowled. 'That, Lady, was uncalled cor.' He turned away, wrapping his cloak about himself.

That's the bulk of the quote... Not much before (while he talked to Panek about the other children) or after he walks away has any bearing on the quote at hand... Unsure if that's anywhere else in the book, or brought up again at all in the series, but I don't think it is.

[Use Of Weapons]

Off topic, but this thread reminded me of one of my favourite quotes from the series. Shadowthrone, I think talking to Kalam and Minala about their adoption of the children. 'Is Cotillion a kindly uncle?'

Love that quote

[Kanese S's]

Given Acorn's providing of the quote, I would guess that he means Sorry/Apsalar, not Laseen.

[Baaljagg]

Ah Acorn you are indeed correct, I just found the quote again and it would appear I remembered it the wrong way round. But it's still a great scene with Uncle Cotillion!

[Dolmen 2.0]

What do you suppose apt actually said?

[Abyss]

Apt probably criticised his parenting skills. Given her own maternal instincts she probably had strong views on the subject, in her own one-eyed, three legged demon matron sort of way.

When i read the segment i figured it was a ref to Apsalar, but Baaljagg's theory is not entirely unthinkable. From what little we know of their history as of DG, it's possible that Surly was a sort of apprentice to Dancer back in the day before she got ambitious. It's important to keep in mind how little we actually know about Dancer's history at this point in the series... he could have reams of bio kids from a hundred years ago before he ever met Kellanved and we would know nothing about it.

[Kallor's Ambitions]

off topic :

"the series" you are referring to are esslemont's novels right ?

This post has been edited by Kallor's Ambitions: 23 October 2012 - 04:53 PM

[Abyss]

Kallor, on 23 October 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

off topic :

"the series" you are referring to are esslemont's novels right ?

Nope. I'm only ref'ing what's in GotM and DG, since this is the DG forum.

By "series" i mean the MBF, but even if we include Esslemont's ME books, those only come into play with NoK, which is after MT in reading order.

[Kallor's Ambitions]

Sorry i'm new and i am not used to MBF ??? ME ??? or MT ???

sorry again,
Tu for the disturb

[Abyss]

Kallor, on 23 October 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

Sorry i'm new and i am not used to MBF ??? ME ??? or MT ???

sorry again,
Tu for the disturb

No worries...

Malazan Book of the Fallen - MBF - Steven Erikson's (SE) 10 book series.
Malazan Empire - ME - Ian Cameron Esslemont's (ICE) parallel series, currently four books along with a fifth in November.
Midnight Tides - MT - fifth book in the MBF.

Night of Knives ( NoK), the first book in the ME series, was published after MT (and before the 6th MBF book The Bonehunters (TB or BH).

As a general approach, many here recommend reading both series together and in published order. There are a few threads on that, if you search 'reading order'.

We organized the book subforums in that order to try to ensure that when you want to discuss a book you aren't spoiled by events in later books.

So what i mean upthread was that as of the end of DG, we don't know much about Cotillion and if he had a dozen kids running around we wouldn't know it.

What i'm NOT saying is whether that does or doesn't ever come up in any later book by either author, because that would be a spoiler.

If the poster desperately wanted to know the answer and spoilers be damned, they could go to General Book forum and post the question there, for an answer that covers everything up to the most recent book by either author. By the way Darth Vader is Luke's father.

[Kallor's Ambitions]

All clear,
thx very much !

[CanIBeInYourGamingGroup]

I just finished my first re-read of this novel after finishing all ten and re-reading GoTM. When I got to this passage, I thought of this thread. Isn't Cotillion referring to Dassum Ultor's daughter here? An earlier passage of this novel has some characters discussing it; I believe it was some of the folks that were in the Azath.
EDIT: strange auto correct. I'm much more likely to 're-read' something than to 'retread' it, aren't I?

This post has been edited by CanIBeInYourGamingGroup: 11 March 2013 - 01:48 AM

[Ozymandiac]

Dassem's daughter is in Tremorlor, yes. But as far as we know, there isn't any grievance between Cotillion and her. All we know is that she was taken by Hood, and Dassem felt so betrayed by this he renounced his title of Knight of Death.

Seems much more likely to me that Cotillion was referring to Sorry/Apsalar and him taking her body.

[Atrate61]

Ozymandiac, on 05 April 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

Dassem's daughter is in Tremorlor, yes. But as far as we know, there isn't any grievance between Cotillion and her. All we know is that she was taken by Hood, and Dassem felt so betrayed by this he renounced his title of Knight of Death.

Seems much more likely to me that Cotillion was referring to Sorry/Apsalar and him taking her body.

I'm curious; did we ever get an explanation as to why Hood took Dassem's daughter? And did she have a name?

[worry]

As of Deadhouse Gates: No.

[Phantom1]

Quote

Night of Knives ( NoK), the first book in the ME series, was published after MT (and before the 6th MBF book The Bonehunters (TB or BH).

[Phantom1]

I didn't know there was another series attached parallel to it. Is it a prequel of the fallen series or does it happen around the same time? Should I read this parallel series before, in the middle or after the 10 books of the fallen? Does it help understand more of the world and the characters' past?

A lot if questions sorry, it just seem very interesting

[Kanese S's]

Phantom1, on 01 March 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

I didn't know there was another series attached parallel to it. Is it a prequel of the fallen series or does it happen around the same time? Should I read this parallel series before, in the middle or after the 10 books of the fallen? Does it help understand more of the world and the characters' past?

A lot if questions sorry, it just seem very interesting

Um... both and neither.

The first book of the parallel series, Novels of the Malazan Empire, by Ian Cameron Esslemont, is Night of Knives. This takes place before the main events of the series (except, maybe, the prologue of Gardens of the Moon... I forget the exact timing), but it was published after Midnight Tides, and most people recommend waiting to read it for the first time until around then. The second book of the parallel series is Return of the Crimson Guard. This is NOT a prequel, but rather takes place immediately after The Bonehunters.