[Otataral Toblakai]

Morgoth, on 25 September 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

Book of the New Sun is in my humble opinion one of the few true masterpieces of the fantasy/sci fi genre.

Wolfe's prose is immaculate. Perhaps the very best to be found in his genre. And Severian is by far the best example of an unreliable narrator I've ever encountered in fiction. I guess that particular aspect is more noticeable on a re-read, but still.

I enjoy the feeling of there being so much just beyond my grasp. As if I've only scratched the surface of something much much deeper. A re-read reveals another layer, but there always seems to be more.

Still, I understand it's not for everyone. Not, however, because people don't 'get' Wolfe, though I'm sure many out there don't I doubt many of those are to be found here. Rather Wolfe's style of storytelling is distinc to the point that it is bound to turn many away. I could never enjoy Dostoevsky, but then I would never claim his books to be bad.

As for TT's opinons: I find it hard to be interested in someones opinions when they seem constructed purely from a check list. A protagonist with a negative view of women equals bad litterature is an absurd position to take in my opinion.

It's OT not TT..! And thank you for the informative post. I simply thought I'd humbly reply and inform you that, no, my opinion isn't constructed from a checklist. I don't even know how to make one - I can't seem to make a box or a circle to act as something to check. You do have a right to your opinion and I accept that. I also have an opinion which is one that is probably not alike to any other person on this planet. Illl accept that. It's just how I am. It's my worldview, so to speak, and I have recently developed a 'notion' of what it is I like best in fantasy/fiction, which I use to determine what I like and what I don't like. It is absurd, ill admit, but hey, freedom of speech et al, right?

[QuickTidal]

I'm with Chris and others on this. The first time I TRIED TbotnS (at least the first book) I failed miserably. Then a few months back on the tail of Chris pimping it (whose opinion I trust) I gave it another proper go and I enjoyed it....though I wasn't sure what I'd read and what I fully thought of it...I was baffled. I knew I'd read something clever, but I was also not entirely happy. It's defo one of those books I KNOW will improve exponentially on a re-read. I gotta finish the other 3 books in the quartet first though.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 25 September 2012 - 01:14 PM

[Baco Xtath]

[/quote]

It's OT not TT..! .......
[/quote]

I think it stands for Toblakai Troll, though it may be Troll Toblakai. Not really sure. Though the OT could stand for Obvious Troll as well.

This post has been edited by Baco Xtath: 25 September 2012 - 02:36 PM

[T77]

Gene is in my top 3 favorite authors. He is considered by many to be one of the greatest authors in any genre and I agree. His prose, imagination and ability to write a fantasy scene are second to none.

That said, I can see why he is not for everyone. His prose can be very dense and since it can take multiple reads to understand what's going on it's not an easy read. I find it difficult to recommend him to others for this reason. If it doesn't click, then he's probably not for you. The only advice I can give is sometimes it's best to read him in small doses.

As far as The Sun series goes I'm almost done with the Short Sun books. The New Sun was great, the third, fourth and Urth I found better than the first two. The Long Sun was just okay and the Short Sun is great, right up there with the New Sun.

[Salt-Man Z]

QuickTidal, on 25 September 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

I gotta finish the other 3 books in the quartet first though.

Yeah you do! That's like putting down LotR after Fellowship of the Ring. It's why I'm partial to my all-in-one omnibus edition.

[Otataral Toblakai]

QuickTidal, on 23 September 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

So you want your protag to be bloody and brutal...but you want him to treat people nicely.

Gotcha.

Yes, something like that. Which may be impossible but I have seen a good number of such protagonists so, the future looks bright!

Puck, on 23 September 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

Otataral Toblakai, on 23 September 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

Puck, on 23 September 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

Otataral Toblakai, on 23 September 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

Unfortunately, it was less epic that I expected and rather drab/boring, told in a continous monologue with spoilers (for example, it is revealed at the start that he'll end up as the Autarch) and a plot that had enormous potential but that potential was hardly put to use. The protagonist was less of a torturer than an arrogant son of nobility. But what galled me most about him was how he treated the women around him, those he had relationships with. I couldn't help but get wrong vibes off his relationship with Dorcas. He often hit the women he wandered around with and that bugged me a lot. I would have had no issues with torture, cruelty or any other barbaric act on the men of Urth (particularly remembering Glokta and how he looked after that other lady character (forgot her name).

You do have problems with anyone even looking askance at a woman in fiction, don't you? And non-righteous protagonists?

I have no problem with non-righteous protagonists - the bloodier, brutaler, the better. But yes, I do have a problem with the treatment of women in fantasy. I'd like my fantasy to be devoid of that one despicable act. Reality notwithstanding, I'd prefer that one piece of idealism and perfection in what I read.
.
These two articles are also rather informative on this issue (written by someone else). Do give them a look. Couldn't have put it better.

http://scribotarian....ing-your-women/

http://scribotarian....ing-your-women/

I think we had this already in another thread, but anyway: if that's also your opinion, then why do you read Malazan? There's plenty of rape and worse.

I get where the blog posts you linked are coming from, but there's a world between that and stuff that actually advances the story. Oh well, going to stop here, as trying to argue with you about that is wasted effort

You are right. This is actually a rather recently post-first Malazan book reading syndrome that I have developed. Additionally, my fragmented Shadow realm like memory made me forget if any happened in MBotF. Argue on, it makes everything more fun!

D, on 23 September 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

I gave up half-way through book 3. I know that supposedly there is so much going on under the surface that you only see on a re-read, but on the surface it felt like a series of almost-completely unrelated events told in a really uninterestingly drab way that did nothing to interest me. There didn't really seem to be anything happening in the plot or narrative to try and actually draw me further or foreshadowing any sort of ending - it seemed like the rest of the series was just going to be another bunch of random events happening with no further purpose - so I gave up.

You aptly described the series and yes, nothing does happen. The new sun does not come (in the book's timeline). Several characters just disappear into thin air.

Una, on 23 September 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

I love this series, but I would be the first to say that I don't actually get it all. It's different. It's dense. It's weird in just the way I like my weird fiction. There is so much underneath the surface I feel I've barely scratched the surface considering I've only done a first read of it. I will definitely be going back for a reread.

The main character is not particularly admirable, on that I can agree. His treatment of women is terrible. It's a reflection of his character. He's completely self-absorbed. In his mind, they exist purely to satisfy his lust. But, being the selfish person he is, he truly believes that he LOVES each one of them, at that exact moment, at least. I lost count of the times I would say, "Severian, you are SUCH a horndog!", as I was reading. I suppose being raised in what is essentially a monastery and then being set loose on the world doesn't really help any, but even so... He's an imperfect narrator, but I found I just really wanted to see where his journey took him.

I consider the scene with the alzabo to be the scariest thing I have ever read. Reading it at 11pm alone in an empty apartment probably didn't help.

The eating of dead flesh part really horrified me in a 'yuck' like way. I wanted him to be barbaric/violent, even sadistic, like a torturer but he was hardly that. To me, he was an arrogant good for nothing bastard who thought too much of himself and was sort of like the 'son of nobility' character I so detest in fantasy.

[Otataral Toblakai]

Baco Xtath, on 25 September 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

Quote

It's OT not TT..! .......

I think it stands for Toblakai Troll, though it may be Troll Toblakai. Not really sure. Though the OT could stand for Obvious Troll as well.

Hmmm. Never though of it that way. Personally, I'd prefer Toblerone Toblakai but then, who gives a damn about my opinion.

[Otataral Toblakai]

Briar King, on 25 September 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

This thread has made me go dig out every Wolfe book I own to re read. Took me about 45 mins to get all them. Now that I think about it I own the entire Solar Cycle but have never finished Long or Short so it ll be all new to me!!!

45 minutes to re-read..??!!

[Salt-Man Z]

Otataral Toblakai, on 26 September 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

Briar King, on 25 September 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

This thread has made me go dig out every Wolfe book I own to re read. Took me about 45 mins to get all them. Now that I think about it I own the entire Solar Cycle but have never finished Long or Short so it ll be all new to me!!!

45 minutes to re-read..??!!

No, 45 minutes to get them all out in order to re-read them. Reading comprehension, dude.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Okay, so I'm 50 pages into The Shadow of the Torturer and a thought popped into my head based off of what I've read so far and things I've heard about the series over the years. So, this is my question:

Spoiler

Does Severian have multiple personalities?

EDIT: ACTUALLY DON'T ANSWER THAT PLEASE.

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 30 January 2016 - 10:49 PM

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Can someone explain to me why Agia and Severian are having a random horsecart race against random people in the beginning of chapter 18? I get that they have to get to the Garden Landing quickly, but why are they racing against some random cart?

RAFO?

[Andorion]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 01 February 2016 - 05:02 PM, said:

Can someone explain to me why Agia and Severian are having a random horsecart race against random people in the beginning of chapter 18? I get that they have to get to the Garden Landing quickly, but why are they racing against some random cart?

RAFO?

Because Agia is insane?

[Salt-Man Z]

Andorion, on 01 February 2016 - 05:11 PM, said:

Because Agia is insane?

She's also pretty poor and desperate for money.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

They all seem pretty crazy so far.

[amphibian]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 01 February 2016 - 06:59 PM, said:

They all seem pretty crazy so far.

Welcome to the focused insanity that every Wolfian character appears to have.

Regarding the horse race: Keep in mind that Severian is also being used by those around him, even as he tries to get them to do what he wants.

[stone monkey]

Also keep in mind that Severian is actively lying, about all sorts of things. The first and biggest lie may well be his perfect memory.

[Morgoth]

stone monkey, on 08 February 2016 - 09:28 PM, said:

Also keep in mind that Severian is actively lying, about all sorts of things. The first and biggest lie may well be his perfect memory.

And that all women immediatly wants him

[Salt-Man Z]

Morgoth, on 09 February 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

stone monkey, on 08 February 2016 - 09:28 PM, said:

Also keep in mind that Severian is actively lying, about all sorts of things. The first and biggest lie may well be his perfect memory.

And that all women immediatly wants him

But remember, he's really not particularly attractive!

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

"Above the waist her creamy amplitude was such that her spine must have been curved backward to balance the weight."

Great line