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Dresden Files Incoming, unpopular opinion on the horizon.

#21 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:35 PM

View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:



Really? You don't even think of what her name is? In microseconds you think of all that and her identity, her name even doesn't come up? I am also a male, I also have sexual desire but it is not how I define a human being literally every time I see them as Harry seems to do.


Nope. Who does that? I mean seriously. The first thing you see when you see a stranger is her looks. End of story. I look, just like every other dude. We all do. It's part of being male.

I'm sure it works in reverse with females who look at me or other guys.


View PostSalt-Man Z, on 18 September 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

I know I personally don't go around trying to guess strangers' names. Seems rather pointless and unproductive.


^^This. Agree.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 18 September 2012 - 03:35 PM

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#22 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:35 PM

View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

View PostVengeance, on 18 September 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

View Postchamp, on 18 September 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

Literally almost female is described via how 'hot' they are including Molly.



The book is told from first person perspective... male first person perspective... what you expect?


Not the need to measure them about how 'banging' they are?


As a male I can tell you that is how I think. I walk down the street and think how hot a chick is. I also think is she wearing panties or not, does she have sex in yoga positions, does she have any tat's or piercings that are only going to be visible upon closer inspection, does she put out on the first date, or is she one of those girls who you can just ask to fuck and not bother with a date. Mind you all this and more that I won't put down go through my mind in microseconds upon seeing a pretty girl walking down the street. I assume that all guys are like me so reading a book written from the prospective of a sexually active male directed toward sexually active males I found came pretty close to being realistic.


Sorry double post.

Really? You don't even think of what her name is? In microseconds you think of all that and her identity, her name even doesn't come up? I am also a male, I also have sexual desire but it is not how I define a human being literally every time I see them as Harry seems to do.


God no... If I wanted to think about her name I would go up and ask her. Do you watch porn and think of the actresses name or the characters name that she is playing?

Also I'm sorry.
How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
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#23 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:37 PM

View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

View PostSalt-Man Z, on 18 September 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

I know I personally don't go around trying to guess strangers' names. Seems rather pointless and unproductive.


I was making the point that nothing of person identity was considered outside of sexual preferences.


If I wanted to know about a persons identity then I would talk to them. If I am not talking to them it is about my preferences.
How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
Hinter - Vengy - DIE. I trusted you you bastard!!!!!!!

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#24 User is offline   Studlock 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:38 PM

You all seemed stuck on the name thing, I was just using it as a extension of someones identity which I'll for the third time is rarely considered in the book when it comes to females.

This post has been edited by Studlock: 18 September 2012 - 03:38 PM

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#25 User is offline   Studlock 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:40 PM

View PostVengeance, on 18 September 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

View PostSalt-Man Z, on 18 September 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

I know I personally don't go around trying to guess strangers' names. Seems rather pointless and unproductive.


I was making the point that nothing of person identity was considered outside of sexual preferences.


If I wanted to know about a persons identity then I would talk to them. If I am not talking to them it is about my preferences.


And you really see nothing wrong with this? How this way of thinking would directly affect how you approach them and talk to them?
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#26 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:40 PM

View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

In society it doesn't go both's ways. Men for the most part are not objectified by society, while women are. My problem with the narrative is that it doesn't seem to give these problems the weight they have in real life to the POV and this to me is troubling. I have no problem with characters being bad people but when the story shows it is a light-hearted way its doing a deserves to society.


Sorry dude, in my society it does.

That you don't think it does baffles me.

Go pick up ANY women magazine (Cosmo, chatelaine), or how about bestselling books (50 shades, twilight, hunger games), how about TV? (Sex and the City, Girls, Greys Anatomy, Two Broke Girls)


Lastly, my gf and her friends all do this, just like guys do. They see guys and say "ooo, he's cute" or "ooo, look at his arms, yummy" ect. It's the first thing on human minds...the gender doesn't matter.

I'm seirously confounded that you think this isn't the case. Sexuaization of both men and women is everywhere. Just hit up a local newstand, or turn on your TV.
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
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#27 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:42 PM

View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

View PostVengeance, on 18 September 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

View PostSalt-Man Z, on 18 September 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

I know I personally don't go around trying to guess strangers' names. Seems rather pointless and unproductive.


I was making the point that nothing of person identity was considered outside of sexual preferences.


If I wanted to know about a persons identity then I would talk to them. If I am not talking to them it is about my preferences.


And you really see nothing wrong with this? How this way of thinking would directly affect how you approach them and talk to them?


This is humanity. This is how we are built. You need to watch a documentary on attraction sir. It's why we give off pheromones. It's in us from the get go. Without it we'd all be mindless boring automatons who would probably never procreate.
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
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#28 User is offline   Studlock 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:44 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 18 September 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

In society it doesn't go both's ways. Men for the most part are not objectified by society, while women are. My problem with the narrative is that it doesn't seem to give these problems the weight they have in real life to the POV and this to me is troubling. I have no problem with characters being bad people but when the story shows it is a light-hearted way its doing a deserves to society.


Sorry dude, in my society it does.

That you don't think it does baffles me.

Go pick up ANY women magazine (Cosmo, chatelaine), or how about bestselling books (50 shades, twilight, hunger games), how about TV? (Sex and the City, Girls, Greys Anatomy, Two Broke Girls)


Lastly, my gf and her friends all do this, just like guys do. They see guys and say "ooo, he's cute" or "ooo, look at his arms, yummy" ect. It's the first thing on human minds...the gender doesn't matter.

I'm seirously confounded that you think this isn't the case. Sexuaization of both men and women is everywhere. Just hit up a local newstand, or turn on your TV.


Let put me it this way. The 'Objectifying' of men generally doesn't have a negative effect on men in society at large, while with women it does. The objectifying of men does harm them while of women it does. I think that better explains my point.
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#29 User is offline   Studlock 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:45 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 18 September 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

View PostVengeance, on 18 September 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

View PostSalt-Man Z, on 18 September 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

I know I personally don't go around trying to guess strangers' names. Seems rather pointless and unproductive.


I was making the point that nothing of person identity was considered outside of sexual preferences.


If I wanted to know about a persons identity then I would talk to them. If I am not talking to them it is about my preferences.


And you really see nothing wrong with this? How this way of thinking would directly affect how you approach them and talk to them?


This is humanity. This is how we are built. You need to watch a documentary on attraction sir. It's why we give off pheromones. It's in us from the get go. Without it we'd all be mindless boring automatons who would probably never procreate.


And I think you need take a class in one of the humanities or social sciences if you truly think biological urges are the only thing that defines humanity.
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#30 User is online   Imperial Historian 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:54 PM

A few of my friends who have read Dresden have had similar issues with Butchers portrayal of women. I've never really noticed it as an issue myself, but I can see how it might come across that way. Nearly every woman is described in terms of her attractiveness at some point or other (though Dresden certainly isn't the biggest culprit when it comes to this, take Glen Cooks garret files for example, or even patrick rothfuss's kingkiller chronicles, there's even a meta discussion in that on how every woman he meets is astonishingly beautiful). I don't think the writing ever actually denigrates women though, women in the series are in general strong characters, who are just as likely to save harry as he is to save them. I think a lot of the issues you have come from Butchers tendancy to follow noir detective fiction traits (especially in the earlier novels) where a femme fatale character often drives the story. I don't think it harms the story for women to be described as attractive from a heterosexual mans pov.

In terms of racial stereotyping, Butcher does tend to shortcut sometimes, by describing people as a stereotype, then pulls out a few differentials, but it has always struck me as more of a shortcut introduction then anything else. Hell nearly everyone in the series starts off as a stereotype of some sort.
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#31 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:55 PM

View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

Let put me it this way. The 'Objectifying' of men generally doesn't have a negative effect on men in society at large, while with women it does. The objectifying of men does harm them while of women it does. I think that better explains my point.


Really? I don't think that's the case at all. What do women look for when they go on dating sites or looking for men in a bar? They look for Mr. Tall, Dark, Handsome, with a good sense of humour, who makes good money, is a perfect father and is an animal in the sack. I mean they don't always look for all of the above, but they do look for a lot of these traits...and they get them from the rest of society and how men are portrayed. This is why nerdy, fat guys have such trouble getting women to go out with them, or super nice guys (who aren't all that to look at) get friend zoned. It ABSOLUTELY affects society at large, and it absolutely affects men....just not super good looking men, or super charming men.

If you are going to argue these things then you really need to see both sides and not just assume that it only happens to affect women.


View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

And I think you need take a class in one of the humanities or social sciences if you truly think biological urges are the only thing that defines humanity.


Ah, young sir I'm a fair bit older than you. I actually took many courses in college about these subjects. But I never said it DEFINES us....I said it's the first thing we see and get into about a person. And like I said, without it we'd all be unsexual creatures who looked at the other gender with mild amusement and no attraction at all.

Do we develop other stuff down the line with a mate we choose to stay with? Of course we do! I don't stay with my gf just because I find her beautiful (it's one of the reasons, and was the initial one), but also because she's funny, allows me to be myself and we have amazing communication. But both of us would freely admit that our initial attraction was sexual. She ripped a button off my shirt on our first date as we made out in front of her condo building.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 18 September 2012 - 04:03 PM

"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
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#32 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:55 PM

View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 18 September 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

In society it doesn't go both's ways. Men for the most part are not objectified by society, while women are. My problem with the narrative is that it doesn't seem to give these problems the weight they have in real life to the POV and this to me is troubling. I have no problem with characters being bad people but when the story shows it is a light-hearted way its doing a deserves to society.


Sorry dude, in my society it does.

That you don't think it does baffles me.

Go pick up ANY women magazine (Cosmo, chatelaine), or how about bestselling books (50 shades, twilight, hunger games), how about TV? (Sex and the City, Girls, Greys Anatomy, Two Broke Girls)


Lastly, my gf and her friends all do this, just like guys do. They see guys and say "ooo, he's cute" or "ooo, look at his arms, yummy" ect. It's the first thing on human minds...the gender doesn't matter.

I'm seirously confounded that you think this isn't the case. Sexuaization of both men and women is everywhere. Just hit up a local newstand, or turn on your TV.


Let put me it this way. The 'Objectifying' of men generally doesn't have a negative effect on men in society at large, while with women it does. The objectifying of men does harm them while of women it does. I think that better explains my point.


It depends on how the objectifying is done. If it is done in a leering type of pervert way then it will have a negative effect on either men or women. If it is only done in passing then it doesn't matter.
You can't tell me that you boys don't strive as much as young women to try to get there bodies into a shape that is pleasing to the opposite sex. If it didn't matter as much to men then would so many guys go to the gym and weigh themselves constantly, and try to get their abs completely cut. People constantly strive to improve themselves for the opposite sex. There is rampart objectifying on both sides of the sexual spectrum.
How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
Hinter - Vengy - DIE. I trusted you you bastard!!!!!!!

Steven Erikson made drowning in alien cum possible - Obdigore
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#33 User is offline   Studlock 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 04:02 PM

View PostVengeance, on 18 September 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 18 September 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

In society it doesn't go both's ways. Men for the most part are not objectified by society, while women are. My problem with the narrative is that it doesn't seem to give these problems the weight they have in real life to the POV and this to me is troubling. I have no problem with characters being bad people but when the story shows it is a light-hearted way its doing a deserves to society.


Sorry dude, in my society it does.

That you don't think it does baffles me.

Go pick up ANY women magazine (Cosmo, chatelaine), or how about bestselling books (50 shades, twilight, hunger games), how about TV? (Sex and the City, Girls, Greys Anatomy, Two Broke Girls)


Lastly, my gf and her friends all do this, just like guys do. They see guys and say "ooo, he's cute" or "ooo, look at his arms, yummy" ect. It's the first thing on human minds...the gender doesn't matter.

I'm seirously confounded that you think this isn't the case. Sexuaization of both men and women is everywhere. Just hit up a local newstand, or turn on your TV.


Let put me it this way. The 'Objectifying' of men generally doesn't have a negative effect on men in society at large, while with women it does. The objectifying of men does harm them while of women it does. I think that better explains my point.


It depends on how the objectifying is done. If it is done in a leering type of pervert way then it will have a negative effect on either men or women. If it is only done in passing then it doesn't matter.
You can't tell me that you boys don't strive as much as young women to try to get there bodies into a shape that is pleasing to the opposite sex. If it didn't matter as much to men then would so many guys go to the gym and weigh themselves constantly, and try to get their abs completely cut. People constantly strive to improve themselves for the opposite sex. There is rampart objectifying on both sides of the sexual spectrum.


Yes, I agree it can happen, more likely when involving young men but it is almost demanded of girls and women. You can't really argue that the perceived image of beauty for both men and women is having far more of an impact on women then the other sex. I am sure I could even find study confirming it.
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#34 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 04:10 PM

View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

Yes, I agree it can happen, more likely when involving young men but it is almost demanded of girls and women. You can't really argue that the perceived image of beauty for both men and women is having far more of an impact on women then the other sex. I am sure I could even find study confirming it.


Sorry, how is it not demanded of men?

When was the last time you asked a girl what she looked for in a guy and it lined up with any non-sexual viewpoint?

Funnily enough I've even in the past dated girls who swore up and down that they were looking for a sense of humour first and foremost...and got dumped shortly after for a prettier or more ripped guy than me (and I'm no slouch I don't think). So even the women I know who said they didn't care as much about looks and sexuality...do so when it's presented to them as an option.

How many girls (or guys for that matter) fantasize about actors of musicians? I'm going to tell you right now that the number is probably like 99%. they do that because of the stars looks firstly, and secondly because of the characters they play or the facade they present. It's got jack squat to do with anything else.

My gf liked/oggled Justin Hartmann on SMALLVILLE. When you ask her why, she says it's his sexy arms.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 18 September 2012 - 04:13 PM

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#35 User is offline   Studlock 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 04:13 PM

http://newyorksociol...rberick2011.pdf

If you want to learn more I'd read that, it's well researched fairly modern (2010/11) and explains it far more better than I ever could. But damn we got off topic.

Edit*

Also while I don't disagree with your personal experiences they are not very helpful because they're a very small group of people and I doubt you asked which individual how they felt they looked and how they thought they should look and whole lot of over questions.

Edit 2*

Uh, and to bring it back to the book this type of POV enforces the male power fantasy I brought up in the beginning and basically demeans the women, with a few who aren't completely objectified (Murphy and Charity).

This post has been edited by Studlock: 18 September 2012 - 04:19 PM

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#36 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 04:16 PM

Learn more?

Studlock, no offense, but no sociology paper is going to change the fact that human men and women look at each other with desire because of social mores across the board.

You really have to look no further than the rest of the animal kingdom to understand it.
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#37 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 04:16 PM

View PostStudlock, on 18 September 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:



Yes, I agree it can happen, more likely when involving young men but it is almost demanded of girls and women. You can't really argue that the perceived image of beauty for both men and women is having far more of an impact on women then the other sex. I am sure I could even find study confirming it.


So to get back slightly on topic a book written from a male prospective is going to have the main character think of women in a sexual way. Women who read the book are going to know that men think of them sexually and that guys like to look at naked 20 yr. Women are going to know that most men have a female friend who is hot and who they have though about banging but the timing hasn't worked out. Because they have a guy friend who is hot and they have thought about banging.
How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
Hinter - Vengy - DIE. I trusted you you bastard!!!!!!!

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#38 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 04:17 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 18 September 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:


My gf liked/oggled Justin Hartmann on SMALLVILLE. When you ask her why, she says it's his sexy arms.


Makes you go to the gym and work on yours doesn't it. :p
How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
Hinter - Vengy - DIE. I trusted you you bastard!!!!!!!

Steven Erikson made drowning in alien cum possible - Obdigore
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#39 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 04:21 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 18 September 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Learn more?

Studlock, no offense, but no sociology paper is going to change the fact that human men and women look at each other with desire because of social mores across the board.

You really have to look no further than the rest of the animal kingdom to understand it.


Counter arguement
How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
Hinter - Vengy - DIE. I trusted you you bastard!!!!!!!

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#40 User is offline   Studlock 

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 04:27 PM

@Vengeance There is nothing wrong with thinking of them in a sexual way but the POV goes to the point where there are not longer just sexual but objectified.

@QuickTidal It kind of does. Like really, really does. In the animal kingdom (mammals more so) sex has more to do with dominance than courtship. Basically you just compared us to so Lions which, of course, don't have social mores as we know them. Again I have no problem with people wanting sex, and even admiring someone in a sexual way what I am arguing is in the Dresden Files it is for the benefit of POV while objectifying the women in question. It is not the characters desires that are at fault but the way they are presented via the narrative that I have a problem with.

Edit* left like eight words out haha.

This post has been edited by Studlock: 18 September 2012 - 04:34 PM

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