[MTS]

Obdigore, on 23 October 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 23 October 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

Loki, on 23 October 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

Bioware has never disappointed me yet so I feel I can get excited now XD

Yeah, I still havent forgiven them for DA2, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Current trends would imply that we're getting something like Fable, rather than something resembling DA:O

I'd prefer a first (or third) person Baldurs Gate 2. Build up your castle/land enough to survive without you. Meanwhile you are out doing whatever. If you do things correctly you can attract blacksmiths and farriers and better soldiers to your castle. But then I've been thinking about putting Stronghold back on my PC for a castle building sim, so w/e.

I think that was baldurs gate 2 where you got the castle and could upgrade it and whatnot.

Well, what you got was different depending on your class, but yeah. If you were a mage I think you got the Planar Sphere and you got the Theatre if you were a bard. Can't remember the other places you could get.

Did anyone else groan inwardly when they read that one level in DA3 was bigger than everything in DA2? Bigger =/= better, game developers.

[Obdigore]

MTS, on 23 October 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

Obdigore, on 23 October 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 23 October 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

Loki, on 23 October 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

Bioware has never disappointed me yet so I feel I can get excited now XD

Yeah, I still havent forgiven them for DA2, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Current trends would imply that we're getting something like Fable, rather than something resembling DA:O

I'd prefer a first (or third) person Baldurs Gate 2. Build up your castle/land enough to survive without you. Meanwhile you are out doing whatever. If you do things correctly you can attract blacksmiths and farriers and better soldiers to your castle. But then I've been thinking about putting Stronghold back on my PC for a castle building sim, so w/e.

I think that was baldurs gate 2 where you got the castle and could upgrade it and whatnot.

Well, what you got was different depending on your class, but yeah. If you were a mage I think you got the Planar Sphere and you got the Theatre if you were a bard. Can't remember the other places you could get.

Did anyone else groan inwardly when they read that one level in DA3 was bigger than everything in DA2? Bigger =/= better, game developers.

Really? I must have been thinking of a different game then. I always play Mage my first time through a game.

Not really, since a big problem of DA2 (the only really big one in my opinion) was the level similarity and the reuse of levels in each cycle.

[MTS]

Obdigore, on 23 October 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

MTS, on 23 October 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

Obdigore, on 23 October 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 23 October 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

Loki, on 23 October 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

Bioware has never disappointed me yet so I feel I can get excited now XD

Yeah, I still havent forgiven them for DA2, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Current trends would imply that we're getting something like Fable, rather than something resembling DA:O

I'd prefer a first (or third) person Baldurs Gate 2. Build up your castle/land enough to survive without you. Meanwhile you are out doing whatever. If you do things correctly you can attract blacksmiths and farriers and better soldiers to your castle. But then I've been thinking about putting Stronghold back on my PC for a castle building sim, so w/e.

I think that was baldurs gate 2 where you got the castle and could upgrade it and whatnot.

Well, what you got was different depending on your class, but yeah. If you were a mage I think you got the Planar Sphere and you got the Theatre if you were a bard. Can't remember the other places you could get.

Did anyone else groan inwardly when they read that one level in DA3 was bigger than everything in DA2? Bigger =/= better, game developers.

Really? I must have been thinking of a different game then. I always play Mage my first time through a game.

Not really, since a big problem of DA2 (the only really big one in my opinion) was the level similarity and the reuse of levels in each cycle.

True, but bigger levels does not necessarily mean increased variety of level design though. Then again, absolutely anything would be an improvement over the level design in DA2.

[Tapper]

Obdigore, on 23 October 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 23 October 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

Loki, on 23 October 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

Bioware has never disappointed me yet so I feel I can get excited now XD

Yeah, I still havent forgiven them for DA2, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Current trends would imply that we're getting something like Fable, rather than something resembling DA:O

I'd prefer a first (or third) person Baldurs Gate 2. Build up your castle/land enough to survive without you. Meanwhile you are out doing whatever. If you do things correctly you can attract blacksmiths and farriers and better soldiers to your castle. But then I've been thinking about putting Stronghold back on my PC for a castle building sim, so w/e.

I think that was baldurs gate 2 where you got the castle and could upgrade it and whatnot.

Yup, it was BG2.

I'm mostly surprised with them already mentioning DA 4/5/6 whatever. I thought it was to be a trilogy?
The franchise hasn't been the insane success ME was, either.

As for castles and inhabitants of castles: all in all, who REALLY gives a flying fuck?
The design of anything that acts as a base and isn't part of a TBS or RTS is usually very rudimentary (with all attention going to textures and architecture and little to actual function) and is a waste of disc space and loading times.

Nine times out of ten, the upgrades you get from it by attracting followers to it aren't as good as the magical stuff you get from quests, and most designers shy away from giving it other lasting impacts (party-size, having to go there to heal instead of quaffing a potion, et cetera - too hardcore).

In 95% of the cases in RPGs, homes et cetera thus have no lasting gameplay influence but act as fluff and a timesink to artificially lengthen the game with - having to enter the home (load time) run to the room where the letters questgiver is, talk, run out (load time). Do that six/seven times and you've lengthened the game time with an hour.
I mean, look at ME's Normandy and its levels and loading times. Worst design in the entire game. Timesink, and not with much value for money (unlike follower convo's). Imho, the game would have been massively improved with all followers standing/ sitting/ lying around in the Mess and the captain's room connected to it. Far less running, less elevator times....

And even the eye-candy-aspect kind of sucks. Player homes invariably look purrrty but you can't change/ redecorate the interior, except take away (like Skyrim). Basically, they're a one-time "empty it out and leave" cash bonus. In that respect, Heartfire's garden/greenhouse was actually a pleasant surprise.
Even so, the Sims probably does it better than 90% of the good games out there (depressing thought).

The only usual "gaming" purpose for just about any home in a RPG is storage, and to provide a smooth flowing game, there are more elegant designs (yet probably less aesthetically pleasing) for that. Instead, increasing a player's backpack, perhaps by adding a section that isn't accessible in quest zones, gives as much efficiency without undoing the backpack limitations.


/end rant

[Tapper]

That being said, I'd love an RPG where you start out with a shack in a (fantasy?) wilderness and your goal is to turn it into a thriving village under your command by expanding your home through resource gathering, hunting, building, farming, attracting people, providing safety, and then becoming the (war)lord of said village/ city/ province/ kingdom.

[Lucifer's Heaven]

"...will once again star a human hero"
Boooo. We had enough of that with ME you lazy bastards. If you are going to make us be only one race I'd rather it be anything else for a change.

[Loki]

Yeah, the Fallout series and Bioshock series also suck cos you only get to play a human...

Thedas may have other races but they're all 'second class/inferior' in its society. The second story wouldn't have been realistic if you were an elf or dwarf. I'm guessing the same goes for the third game.

[Obdigore]

Loki, on 24 October 2012 - 03:17 AM, said:

Yeah, the Fallout series and Bioshock series also suck cos you only get to play a human...

Thedas may have other races but they're all 'second class/inferior' in its society. The second story wouldn't have been realistic if you were an elf or dwarf. I'm guessing the same goes for the third game.

The second story would have been better if you were an elf or a dwarf. You could have added a ton of playtime to the game by giving you quest chains that require you to prove elves/dwarves weren't inferior to humans and that you are good enough, despite your race in the eyes of the nobles, to be the champion of kirkwall.

Of course the second story would have been better if you could have sided with the Arishok.

I've decided they should switch every game and make an 'evil version' of Dragon Age, where you play as a young Darkspawn, and have to fight and take control of a small pack then moving up and up until you gain enough influence to morph into a dragon and unleash your ravaging horde upon the very heroes you played as in the game before, destroying them and all they built. Then the next game you once again play as a 'good' race work to bind the remnants together to kill the horde you just created.

Continue until no one wants to play it. Maybe make a couple games a surprise and have one darkspawn installment be in a previous age when you crush the dwarven holds, allowing the 'good' side to get 2 games to make improvements and whatnot?

[Loki]

Obdigore, on 24 October 2012 - 03:46 AM, said:

Loki, on 24 October 2012 - 03:17 AM, said:

Yeah, the Fallout series and Bioshock series also suck cos you only get to play a human...

Thedas may have other races but they're all 'second class/inferior' in its society. The second story wouldn't have been realistic if you were an elf or dwarf. I'm guessing the same goes for the third game.

The second story would have been better if you were an elf or a dwarf. You could have added a ton of playtime to the game by giving you quest chains that require you to prove elves/dwarves weren't inferior to humans and that you are good enough, despite your race in the eyes of the nobles, to be the champion of kirkwall.

Of course the second story would have been better if you could have sided with the Arishok.

I've decided they should switch every game and make an 'evil version' of Dragon Age, where you play as a young Darkspawn, and have to fight and take control of a small pack then moving up and up until you gain enough influence to morph into a dragon and unleash your ravaging horde upon the very heroes you played as in the game before, destroying them and all they built. Then the next game you once again play as a 'good' race work to bind the remnants together to kill the horde you just created.

Continue until no one wants to play it. Maybe make a couple games a surprise and have one darkspawn installment be in a previous age when you crush the dwarven holds, allowing the 'good' side to get 2 games to make improvements and whatnot?

Given that so much of the story is about the battle between mages and the Chantry/Circle, and that is worked into your own story by either being a mage or having a sibiling who is a mage, playing a dwarf makes very little sense to me. Plus, how many dwarven families would there be living in Lothering?

[Obdigore]

Loki, on 24 October 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

Obdigore, on 24 October 2012 - 03:46 AM, said:

Loki, on 24 October 2012 - 03:17 AM, said:

Yeah, the Fallout series and Bioshock series also suck cos you only get to play a human...

Thedas may have other races but they're all 'second class/inferior' in its society. The second story wouldn't have been realistic if you were an elf or dwarf. I'm guessing the same goes for the third game.

The second story would have been better if you were an elf or a dwarf. You could have added a ton of playtime to the game by giving you quest chains that require you to prove elves/dwarves weren't inferior to humans and that you are good enough, despite your race in the eyes of the nobles, to be the champion of kirkwall.

Of course the second story would have been better if you could have sided with the Arishok.

I've decided they should switch every game and make an 'evil version' of Dragon Age, where you play as a young Darkspawn, and have to fight and take control of a small pack then moving up and up until you gain enough influence to morph into a dragon and unleash your ravaging horde upon the very heroes you played as in the game before, destroying them and all they built. Then the next game you once again play as a 'good' race work to bind the remnants together to kill the horde you just created.

Continue until no one wants to play it. Maybe make a couple games a surprise and have one darkspawn installment be in a previous age when you crush the dwarven holds, allowing the 'good' side to get 2 games to make improvements and whatnot?

Given that so much of the story is about the battle between mages and the Chantry/Circle, and that is worked into your own story by either being a mage or having a sibiling who is a mage, playing a dwarf makes very little sense to me. Plus, how many dwarven families would there be living in Lothering?

You run into the Bodahn and Sandal in lothering. You also could hail from a line of dwarves expelled to the surface centuries ago who have lost their immunity to the fade through the lack of dealing with lyrium. Or you could be an orphan who was taken in by a human family, or perhaps as a chantry guard who was raised knowing that mages served a great purpose in the land and warned that chantry guards could overstep themselves.

There are tons of ways to make it happen, stop being so unimaginative. It is a fantasy world. Shepard could drop off 9 dwarves and an Asari in DA3 and people would cheer. I mean really.

[Loki]

In otherwords, rewrite the entire backstory? I'm not being unimaginative, I'm showing why Hawke was human in the story Bioware went with.

By your reasoning they could have introduced mechs so long as they did a side quest showing how an ancient civilisation once built mechanical suits of armor

[Obdigore]

Loki, on 24 October 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

In otherwords, rewrite the entire backstory? I'm not being unimaginative, I'm showing why Hawke was human in the story Bioware went with.

By your reasoning they could have introduced mechs so long as they did a side quest showing how an ancient civilisation once built mechanical suits of armor

Having an offshoot of a race isn't rewriting an entire backstory.

You mean like the Golems of Almarak DLC? You have shown nothing why Hawke had to be a human in the second game.

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 24 October 2012 - 05:56 AM

[Loki]

And you haven't shown how it could work without significantly adapting the story

This post has been edited by Loki: 24 October 2012 - 06:22 AM

[Obdigore]

Loki, on 24 October 2012 - 06:21 AM, said:

And you haven't shown how it could work without significantly adapting the story

Sorry, you made the claim that story wouldn't have worked if the main character was a dwarf or elf. You have to prove that claim. Your ignoring of elves being able to do magic AND your ignoring of the whole surface caste of dwarves is telling in that I think you know you are wrong and have nothing to back up your claim.

[Loki]

The fact that you go to Kirkwall because your family has an estate - THE reason for going there would not exist if you weren't human. Nor would the entire premise of the first Act - regaining your family home and standing.

[Obdigore]

Loki, on 24 October 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

The fact that you go to Kirkwall because your family has an estate - THE reason for going there would not exist if you weren't human. Nor would the entire premise of the first Act - regaining your family home and standing.

Your family doesn't have an estate in Kirkwall, actually. You go there because your Uncle is there.

Meanwhile if you were a dwarf or an elf, trying to be regarded as a member of society in good standing would have you do THE SAME EXACT THINGS as what you did to try to regain your estate.

[Loki]

Leandra - "We can go to Kirkwall."

Hawke - "Kirkwall? Are you sure that's wise?"

Bethany - "There's a lot of templars there mother."

Leandra - "I know that but we still have family there and an estate."

-----------------------

Plus all the quests about the Estate, getting the will, Bethany's concerns for mother over the Estate.

And please, like a dwarf or elf would be giving an estate or title in Kirkwall. You can't just disregard the entire socio-cultural aspects of the region. EDIT: And yes, this IS important because the Viscount wouldn't send for a commoner to assist with the affairs of Kirkwall.

The story that Bioware chose to write requires Hawke to be human - you can't just transplant a dwarf or elf into it and have it work. You'd have to change several elements of the story. Whether you would prefer that to have been the case is irrelevant to the fact that in DA2 Hawke needs to be human for the story to work AS IT IS.

This post has been edited by Loki: 24 October 2012 - 06:47 AM

[Obdigore]

Loki, on 24 October 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

Leandra - "We can go to Kirkwall."

Hawke - "Kirkwall? Are you sure that's wise?"

Bethany - "There's a lot of templars there mother."

Leandra - "I know that but we still have family there and an estate."

-----------------------

Plus all the quests about the Estate, getting the will, Bethany's concerns for mother over the Estate.

And please, like a dwarf or elf would be giving an estate or title in Kirkwall. You can't just disregard the entire socio-cultural aspects of the region. EDIT: And yes, this IS important because the Viscount wouldn't send for a commoner to assist with the affairs of Kirkwall.

The story that Bioware chose to write requires Hawke to be human - you can't just transplant a dwarf or elf into it and have it work. You'd have to change several elements of the story. Whether you would prefer that to have been the case is irrelevant to the fact that in DA2 Hawke needs to be human for the story to work AS IT IS.

Sure you can. Just like they changed elements of the first one depending on what race you are. The decision to make it human-only comes BEFORE you write the dialogue and story.

[Tapper]

@ Loki: turn "family and an estate" into "family", keep the will, skip the title but make it all about a shopkeeper's house and the problem is solved.

Dragon Age's realm is secretly a meritocracy when it comes to protagonists, no matter how entrenched it may be for everyone else.

EDIT: not that I care one bit about a discussion of what could have been, should have been, or might be in a videogame universe. I'll play it unless I can't be bothered to play it.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 24 October 2012 - 07:12 AM

[Loki]

As I said, I was simply showing why Hawke had to be human in the story Bioware ended up making. I didn't say it was impossible to change it to allow for other races.

I don't get why that's so hard to understand?