[cerveza_fiesta]

POOPOO MCBUMFACE, on 17 October 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

So the Kickstarter ended with a livestream in which, to live up to Obsidian's pedigree, they all got so drunk they accidentally muted Urquhart's closing speech and had a thumb war competition instead. Good stuff.

that's awesome

It makes me happy these guys who are so obviously dedicated to their craft get to create something special and truly special. I'm also hella-stoked that it is a Rated M game, which means they can basically explore whatever content they think will improve the experience. Hopefully pixelated sexy time HELL YEAH!!!

I'm wondering how many man-hours they can actually devote to this now with 4M in the bank + eventual post-production sales. Assuming an experienced game developer makes $70k per year plus benefits& overhead (usually about a 1.65 multiplier), that's a budget of $115,500 per worker per year. Assuming half of the money will be used for marketing, that leaves 2M to pay wages over the 18mo development time, which is about 11.5 full-time equivalent staff Obsidian can devote to the work at $70k per year. This would include both developers, graphics guys, external talent (authors), and everybody actually adding to the game itself.

I'm sure I'm missing lots of things in that equation, and my assumptions might be a bit off in terms of salary levels. Does 11.5 FTE seem like enough to pull off a game of the scope they're talking about?

[Aptorian]

cerveza_fiesta, on 16 October 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

You are right macros, maybe content is too vague a descriptor.

After playing through BG2, and slowly picking my way thru skyrim, I find there is a lot of great content in both. The difference, as macros says, is depth. Skyrim has a lot of content and a big world to be sure, but in essence it's a lot of repetitive content. I mean, there are like a dozen dragon overlooks where you can slay dragons, and every single town has a "kill the dragon that is plaguing the town" quest. Every town likewise has 2-3 "kill the bandit leader at location x" quests. Lots of bandit leaders to kill, no real reason to feel one way or the other about doing so.

The contrast would be if the same dozen slay-the-dragon quests were strung together into a winding questline that takes you to many different points around the province, where you rid the skies of the leader dragons culminating in some big ass boss fight, having conversations with each, and picking up items that reveal lore about the province of Skyrim and its history with dragons along the way. The contrast in the "kill the bandit case" would be breaking up a massive organized smuggling ring, solving a bit of a mystery along the way and improving the life of the small business people of skyrim, with measurable effect on your relations and trading ability.

The former case adds content for sure, but it's content in the form of "things to do". The latter adds content and gives the player a reason to want to complete the quests. Even without nostalgia blinders, I think it's fair to say that BG and its contemporaries, despite being "smaller" games have just as much content as their modern counterparts - even a top-tier game like Skyrim or Fallout 3. Their heavy dependence on conversation and dialogue choice made the story an unavoidable part of every quest rather than quests being check boxes on the way to completion of the game.

Not saying the modern games have no story whatsoever, and no depth whatsoever, they just don't do it as well as the older ones.

In that light, I think it's fair to say that a new top-down-iso-tactical RPG in the spirit of BG, with a $3.5M budget to work with (and not being slaved to scripting of flashy visuals) can have 10x the *actual* content of a game like skyrim.

I fully agree with this. I think it is fair to say that while Skyrim has tons of content the depth of the world is somewhat flat.

But I also think there needs to be some kind of balance between the lore and plot driven storylines versus the actual content of the game. While I am sure it will be a lot cheaper to build a game world in a top down isometric perspective (with a fixed camera angle?), the cost will be found in the level of detail. This is by far the most costly part of developing a video game with an open world. The question is what they can accomplish besides leaving scolls with info dumps every where.

POOPOO MCBUMFACE, on 16 October 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

Aptorius, on 16 October 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

but that depth is more likely to come from the lore than the actual game mechanics which sound like they will be a return to the classics.

I fail to see how a "return to the classics" means the game mechanics won't be deep. Quite the opposite.

The majority share of most game budgets go towards graphics, voice acting and - by far the largest single area - marketing, not depth of content or gameplay. Games haven't improved as budgets have soared; they've changed, they've become more polished, but it's a matter of opinion as to whether they offer a better gameplay experience now than they did 10-15 years ago. I don't think they do. Apparently, neither do Obsidian, or InXile, or many others. And I get the impression they're finally making the games they've wanted to make for years.

Not that this will necessarily be the case with Project: Eternity, given how little concrete information we actually have on it. I'm far more excited for Wasteland 2, Dead State, Chaos Chronicles, Age of Decadence and Grimoire. But it all looks good so far

The cynical part of me suggests that Obsidian are simply pandering to the nostalgic RPG fan and the curious young gamers who wants to see what all the hub bub is about. I am sure that they do want to make something special and they've had ideas since for ever, but lets not forget that videogames are a business.

I think Diablo 3 (which I admit is not really a true RPG experience) has shown that modern games have improved wastly over the old games. Diablo 3 was very entertaining and addictive in its own way, for about a week, but in terms of innovation and versatility the game is a dinosaur brought back to life by the Necromancy of Fanboy nostalgia. There is a reason why these games became scarce and lost their lucrative alure in the eyes of the publishers. They are, like the old adventure games, victims of the coming of the 3D age and the more fast paced 1st and 3rd person games. The vast majority of gamers voted with their wallets during the late 90s and with the rise in the popularity of the consoles, these kinds of games fell behind. Luckily, what with the huge growth of the market and the breadth of the internet, you can find a market for these games again, but there really never was much more to these games than clicking here and there and pressing hot keys. In that sense I would claim that the more modern 3D games, especially First Person games, are much more innovative in that they make you feel like you ARE the character, rather than just the godlike DM sitting above ordering his minions about on the isometric gaming field. Its a matter of taste I guess.

cerveza_fiesta, on 17 October 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

POOPOO MCBUMFACE, on 17 October 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

So the Kickstarter ended with a livestream in which, to live up to Obsidian's pedigree, they all got so drunk they accidentally muted Urquhart's closing speech and had a thumb war competition instead. Good stuff.

that's awesome

It makes me happy these guys who are so obviously dedicated to their craft get to create something special and truly special. I'm also hella-stoked that it is a Rated M game, which means they can basically explore whatever content they think will improve the experience. Hopefully pixelated sexy time HELL YEAH!!!

I'm wondering how many man-hours they can actually devote to this now with 4M in the bank + eventual post-production sales. Assuming an experienced game developer makes $70k per year plus benefits& overhead (usually about a 1.65 multiplier), that's a budget of $115,500 per worker per year. Assuming half of the money will be used for marketing, that leaves 2M to pay wages over the 18mo development time, which is about 11.5 full-time equivalent staff Obsidian can devote to the work at $70k per year. This would include both developers, graphics guys, external talent (authors), and everybody actually adding to the game itself.

I'm sure I'm missing lots of things in that equation, and my assumptions might be a bit off in terms of salary levels. Does 11.5 FTE seem like enough to pull off a game of the scope they're talking about?

I bet that they are going to get funding from a Publisher/Investor on top of the money they've raised. They can go to the right people, even a bank, and say "Look at how many people back us! See how much money we've racked together! Whould you care to match this sum of money?" or "If we give you a slice of the pie will you handle publicity for us?". I don't know if they've actually commented on any plans like this, but I know other studio's have had this strategy in mind. 2 million will buy next to no advertisement alone. It's also possible that Obsidian has its own investment fund that it can draw from to work on its own projects. I am sure who ever actually is the boss of the studio must be loaded.

On the other hand, we also have to take into account the ridiculous amount of money that has to go to making all the extra merchandise they promised to back who paid 100 dollars or more.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 17 October 2012 - 03:02 PM

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

Aptorius, on 17 October 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

The cynical part of me suggests that Obsidian are simply pandering to the nostalgic RPG fan and the curious young gamers who wants to see what all the hub bub is about. I am sure that they do want to make something special and they've had ideas since for ever, but lets not forget that videogames are a business.

I think Diablo 3 (which I admit is not really a true RPG experience) has shown that modern games have improved wastly over the old games. Diablo 3 was very entertaining and addictive in its own way, for about a week, but in terms of innovation and versatility the game is a dinosaur brought back to life by the Necromancy of Fanboy nostalgia. There is a reason why these games became scarce and lost their lucrative alure in the eyes of the publishers. They are, like the old adventure games, victims of the coming of the 3D age and the more fast paced 1st and 3rd person games. The vast majority of gamers voted with their wallets during the late 90s and with the rise in the popularity of the consoles, these kinds of games fell behind. Luckily, what with the huge growth of the market and the breadth of the internet, you can find a market for these games again, but there really never was much more to these games than clicking here and there and pressing hot keys. In that sense I would claim that the more modern 3D games, especially First Person games, are much more innovative in that they make you feel like you ARE the character, rather than just the godlike DM sitting above ordering his minions about on the isometric gaming field. Its a matter of taste I guess.

I definitely agree with your first point. I'm sure their hearts are in the right place, but they're professional developers and are approaching it in a... polished kind of way. I do like them, but other than Mask of the Betrayer, they've yet to create a fully finished product that's all heart all the way through. Out of all the upcoming "throwback" RPGs, if I had to pin one down as likely to be a bland-feeling checklist of "what do BG2 fans want?", I wouldn't hesitate to say it's this one. Even at that, though, I'll take a semi-professionally-produced BG2 clone over every mushy-tasting action-game-with-RPG-sprinkling thing of the last five or six years.

Diablo was always a mindless clickfest, yes. I never really understood the appeal of Diablo or its clones so I can't vouch for them, but they were the original mindless point and click action-RPGs. They're... a good example of point and click RPGs, but that doesn't say anything about the games of the time as a whole.

Try "clicking here and there and pressing hotkeys" on more than an incredibly reductionist level in the Gold Box games, Dark Sun, Jagged Alliance, Might and Magic, Realms of Arkania, Wizardry 8... the list goes on. I've yet to find anything more than that to Skyrim, though. There have always been fast-paced first-person games rich in complexity; in fact, Akalabeth was probably the first computer RPG - if anything, you could say first-person single-character real-time games were around first, not the more modern style! The late 80s were already offering games like Midwinter, a fantastically imaginative, fast-paced, first-person RPG-strategy-shooter-sim hybrid monster that has never quite been rivalled. Darklands was as much of a medieval life simulator as an RPG from the ground up, with you designating your characters' entire life stories in character generation and going from there. Ultima Underworld and Dungeon Master, the games which the Elder Scrolls and its ilk owe just about everything to, followed, offering handcrafted, simulation-like experiences with environmental interaction, food systems and so on. I've never felt immersed in my character more than in UU, whereas I've always felt a certain clunky disconnect in most modern games with their scripted scenes and third-person killmove cutaways; to me, Looking Glass Studios were the last people to make a first-person game that truly made you feel grounded as your character (though Arkane come close, and I'm looking forward to trying Dishonored despite hearing a few negative things about it). I haven't seen any games offering really new gameplay experiences for a long time, and all I can see is genres either getting more and more condensed into a bland homogenous mush, or wiped out entirely.

This post has been edited by POOPOO MCBUMFACE: 17 October 2012 - 04:29 PM

[cerveza_fiesta]

I was just reading through the final tally and stretch goal update. Live musical score! That is going to be awesome. The epic-themed music (eg. Skyrim and Oblivion) is one of the things that really make a fantasy game immersive IMO.

And a 13 level dungeon is going to be fully ridiculous. I hope they do the leveling classic RPG style so that you get your ass handed to you once in awhile and have to retreat and return to the area after leveling up a bit. I can't really see them doing it any other way if they want to stay true to CRPG roots, but still...

I really like the 2 city stretch goal thing too...Baldur's Gate and Athlatka in the BG series, and whatever the opening city in PS:T was called.... they were the best parts of their respective games I thought. Way more going on and really cool environments. Don't get me wrong, I liked all the rest, but the cities were the funnest bits.

This post has been edited by cerveza_fiesta: 19 October 2012 - 02:12 PM

[Garak]

PS:T had Sigil.

[Macros]

13 level dungeon?
That's awesomely insane. Lets hope they aren't using a copout of having little mid levels that are basically one room to count as a level.
I just hope that this game does well and pushes beamdog into a full BG3, I just live the FR setting and storylines

[Stalker]

Their most recent update said that the massive dungeon is now 15 levels due to PayPal supporters and likes on Facebook. Their concept art of the dungeon was one of my favorite things from the kickstarter.

[Macros]

I couldn't find the concept art, where was it?

[Aptorian]

I think he was referring to the "progress picture" that simply showed the addition of layers to the dungeon slowly revealing a buried statue (petrified giant?).

EDIT: This

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 24 October 2012 - 04:24 PM

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

Can't wait to camp out in the perilous depths of the giant infernal crotch.

[Defiance]

It would be totally awesome if that statue ends up being made of jade.

[Sindriss]

That is quite a cool idea. Really look forward to playing the game. Story > graphics.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Updates indicate that they are now done counting their money and are actually started on development! Yay!

Anybody with more experience in video game dev know at what point we might expect to see some more graphical stuff? I imagine there's quite a bit of groundwork to be laid in creating a game engine and a game to go ontop of it, but I would personally love to have more pretty pictures to look at than just the waterfall from the kickstarter site.

[Rehvenge]

http://www.formsprin...125847317791014
Read the comments.

[Defiance]

That's awesome. Can't wait to play it. Is it still going to be out in Spring 2014, or have they delayed it?

[Rehvenge]

Defiance, on 07 June 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

That's awesome. Can't wait to play it. Is it still going to be out in Spring 2014, or have they delayed it?

Summer 2014 as of now.

[Werthead]

PROJECT ETERNITY is now PILLARS OF ETERNITY, complete with some highly promising gameplay footage. No release date, though a window of mid-to-late 2014 is still expected.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Werthead, on 11 December 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

PROJECT ETERNITY is now PILLARS OF ETERNITY, complete with some highly promising gameplay footage. No release date, though a window of mid-to-late 2014 is still expected.

Just watched the new teaser trailer. The game looks really good!

Combat system looks similar to infinity-engine games, spell effects are pretty, enemies are animated well.

On a fundamental level it's just Baldur's gate with way better graphics, but despite what anyone says, graphics are as much a part of immersion as the story - especially in fantasy games IMO. Near the end of the video there's a quick scene where a hero is fighting an amazing-looking dragon too. If that's typical of what the game has in store then I'm super excited!


I regularly read the email updates too. There was one a few weeks back where they showed the "scheduling spreadsheet" that the lead developer uses to keep the project on track. It looks like they've axed very few things from the original plan. I noticed weapon durability (for example) was removed...but IMO that's pretty minor considering they seem to be actively working on the important things they promised, like enhanced combat systems and cool-looking environments.

[Werthead]

More info. Sounds promising: the 15-level mega-dungeon is in and insanely big. Apparently one of the approaches is to periodically return to it throughout the game since it is far too tough to clear in one pass.

On the length of the overall game, apparently one of their testers took a full working day (presumably 8-10 hours) to complete just three quests. It certainly sounds like the game will be huge.

[Werthead]

PoE character sheet.

That's how a character sheet should look.