[Shal-morzinn]

First, I am reading this series for the first time, and have only read upto Chaper 21(Tavore and her army have just entered Togg and Fanderay's realm for a shortcut to Unta) and so have no idea about what Tavore has planned for the army, but based on her actions sofar (in HoC and here in TBH), there are so many reasons for Kalam,Quick Ben and others not to side with her.(In fact, I was actually with Tene Baralta when he reasoned about the possible treasonous connection between Tavore and Leoman).

Tavore leads the army to march from Aren to Raraku in HoC, but by that time, the people of Seven Cities have already started worshipping Coltaine and the Wickans,(especially the local tribes), one of the tribes even joins her army, and hence she doesn't have to face a running battle on the march like Coltaine. With all the mess in Sha'ik's camp, Tavore and her army were always going to face a divided enemy(not to mention Korbolo Dom's ultra-ambitious plan to betray Sha'ik and get in the good books of Laseen, which somehow still seems to be on track). In the end, Tavore didn't even have to face them, as the ghost army did the job for her, and she just non-chalantly killed her helpless sister without breaking any sweat.

Then, she allows Leoman and his small army to escape, does not pursue them with full force, and finally allows them to settle in Y'Ghatan. Now, from flashbacks of her childhood and the musings of Ganoes, we know that Tavore conducts an extensive research before any battle, not only about the enemy army, but also about the place where the battle will take place, the history, previous battles taken place there, etc. Hence, Tavore must have known about the Olive Oil situation for Y'Ghatan, and must have suspected Leoman will somehow use it(though maybe not in such a drastic manner as he actually did). Yet, there was no plan, no intimation to the marines who first infiltrated Y'Ghatan about this. It almost seems as if she wanted to get rid of the veterans in the marines. After the slaughter of the siege, she did not really try to look for survivors, but was in a hurry to escape the plague.

Frankly, she has done absolutely nothing so far that suggests of anything extraordinary(even using those bones as a good symbol rather than an omen was Fiddler's idea), and it is really baffling that new armies continue to pledge their loyalty to her, even veterans like Kalam and Quick Ben are actually thinking of betraying Laseen to side with Tavore.

Oh, I almost forgot to mention the tyrannical attitude of Tavore while making tactical decisions for the army - discussions with the other Fists are not encouraged, there are no exchange of ideas, everyone in the army is completely in the dark about what Tavore really has planned. All of this together really defines a bad commander.

This post has been edited by Shal-morzinn: 11 September 2012 - 05:50 AM

[Defiance]

The Khundryl Burned Tears pledged themselves to Tavore out of their respect for Coltaine. If you recall, they were in Deadhouse Gates and actually assisted Coltaine during the march (the one native Seven Cities tribe that did). Pledging themselves to Tavore really isn't that surprising. The other tribes/people of Seven Cities have elevated Coltaine to a god-like status because of his accomplishments. Sure, he was just doing his duty, but what he accomplished was incredible. The 7C natives respect that.

How does she allow Leoman to escape? It's not like Leoman decided to flee the Oasis with his people by marching right in front of Tavore. They scattered into a sandstorm, fleeing as fast as they could go. Chasing them into that would have been a deathtrap (and was, for Lieutenant Ranal). There's no sense in the army wearing itself to exhaustion hunting down Leoman, only to catch him and get slaughtered because everyone is too exhausted to fight.

I can't comment on the olive oil. I never found Tavore (or anyone) not thinking about it out of place. Yes, Tavore studies previous battles, but as far as I know nobody has ever done anything as ingeniously crazy as that. Also, there really wasn't time to sit and wait around; plague was coming from the East, so it was pretty much do or die.

Tavore had absolutely no reason to wait and look for the veterans. Y'Ghatan was consumed in a firestorm. The entire city was nothing more than a misshapen pile of ash - all of it had been consumed in fire (fifty feet high? one hundred? I don't remember how tall it said the flames got). They stayed for two days, but there was nothing to suggest that somehow the veterans would manage to crawl through the bones of the city in order to survive. Tavore doesn't have time for wishful thinking with the plague inbound from the east.

The Perrish pledging themselves to Tavore is something that will be explored more later on, but I believe you have some rudimentary explanation at this point.

Overall, I think you have unrealistic expectations for Tavore. Some of the stuff you listed is out of her control. That said, not talking with her Fists/having no exchange of ideas is a very valid point. Tavore is no Dujek or Dassem, and is a very different character than Laseen. As for people thinking about changing loyalties, here's a better way to think of things: what has Laseen ever done for most of them? I don't think that Laseen is as bad as a lot of people make her out to be, but she's done little to foster anything but enmity toward a lot of the veterans in Tavore's army.

[Kanubis]

I think you're being harsh about Y'Ghatan, but other than that the good news is that you're supposed to be questioning her motives and competence at this point. It's totally a theme.

Man, I am SO fricking jealous that you're about to read the last part of TBH for the first time - still my favourite quarter of a book out of the entire series.

[gulex]

I largely agree shal-morzinn. I had a really tough time getting through the 'marine' stuff in the Malazan series because her complete lack of discourse with ANYONE at ANY time - and yet people flock to her banner to die for an Empress they hate under the command of Tavore. A commander with the charisma of a lobster.

This is a weak point in Eriksons writing in my opinion. Some of the 'social dynamics' in his books are outright rediculous such as the Tavore-Army relationship. That said Erikson does culture, warfare, magic and mythology better than anything i've ever read. So he surely deserves his place at the top of the pantheon anyway.

This post has been edited by gulex: 11 September 2012 - 02:23 PM

[Sindriss]

Well, I doubt anybody thought that Leoman would sacrifice a city and army for killing a portion of tavoles army.

[Abyss]

Shal-morzinn, on 11 September 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

First, I am reading this series for the first time, and have only read upto Chaper 21(Tavore and her army have just entered Togg and Fanderay's realm for a shortcut to Unta) and so have no idea about what Tavore has planned for the army, but based on her actions sofar (in HoC and here in TBH), there are so many reasons for Kalam,Quick Ben and others not to side with her.(In fact, I was actually with Tene Baralta when he reasoned about the possible treasonous connection between Tavore and Leoman).

There's a great big fat ugly RAFO here, but at the point you're at, they are basically following her because she's in charge, she's the Empress' Adjunct and to a lesser extent, bcs she's a Paran (to the extent that matters to QB, Kalam and Fid).

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Tavore leads the army to march from Aren to Raraku in HoC, but by that time, the people of Seven Cities have already started worshipping Coltaine and the Wickans,(especially the local tribes), one of the tribes even joins her army, and hence she doesn't have to face a running battle on the march like Coltaine.

Except for all the raiding, including the one that almost killed Fist Gamet. It wasn't exactly a cakewalk.

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With all the mess in Sha'ik's camp, Tavore and her army were always going to face a divided enemy

You put this as tho Tavore and co knew what would happen. They didn't. As far as they knew they were walking into a fight against a superior and entrenched enemy. Tavore, Nil and Nether suspected otherwise, but no one else knew.

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... In the end, Tavore didn't even have to face them, as the ghost army did the job for her,...

That was the point of the end - everyone expects one thing and the resolution goes in another direction. The entire point is that it did not end in a massive military clash.
...tho we still got Kalam's raid, Karsa vs the Deragoth, Heboric gutting assassins, L'oric getting stabbed a lot, Pearl and Lostara behind the scenes...

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and she just non-chalantly killed her helpless sister without breaking any sweat.

You just non-chalantly missed the entire point of the scene.

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Then, she allows Leoman and his small army to escape, does not pursue them with full force, and finally allows them to settle in Y'Ghatan.

Ummm... what? How does any of that reflect what happens in the book?

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Now, from flashbacks of her childhood and the musings of Ganoes, we know that Tavore conducts an extensive research before any battle, not only about the enemy army, but also about the place where the battle will take place, the history, previous battles taken place there, etc. Hence, Tavore must have known about the Olive Oil situation for Y'Ghatan, and must have suspected Leoman will somehow use it

Wow. You're really determined to paint everything as blindingly obvious in hindsight.
The entire point of the oil thing was to use a 'native' 7C advantage and SURPRISE the Malazans. Also, fanatical suicide oil bombers setting the city on fire aren't exactly standard seige tactic.

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(though maybe not in such a drastic manner as he actually did).

So you see the point but you disregard it because it doesn't support your arguement?

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Yet, there was no plan, no intimation to the marines who first infiltrated Y'Ghatan about this. It almost seems as if she wanted to get rid of the veterans in the marines. After the slaughter of the siege, she did not really try to look for survivors, but was in a hurry to escape the plague.

The plan was to send the marines in, shock and disorganize the defenders before they could properly entrench (the marines being CREATED by Dassem for exactly that job), and follow with the rest of the army.

Yes, it didn't work, because Leoman had a better, albeit suicidal plan.

And then they bug out before the entire army dies vs stick around looking for some survivors whom no one actually knows survived. Those squads were way ahead of the army when the firestorm triggered. The way they survived was miraculous. You seem to think it was predictable, beats me why.

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Frankly, she has done absolutely nothing so far that suggests of anything extraordinary

She's led her army to one edgy victory, one smashing loss, and then home. On orders from the Empress.
They are supposed to be following her orders and the reader is supposed to be wondering what's going on there.

Btw the Burned Tears are there because of Coltaine, not Tavore, and the Grey Helms are there because their gods told them to be.

[worry]

Why do people listen to their bosses, I wonder.

[Abyss]

worrywort, on 11 September 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Why do people listen to their bosses, I wonder.

i blame society.

[Studlock]

The one thing about Tavore that does bug me is the lack of communication and the loyalty she receives. Honestly I don't think the army would be all that loyal to her because she refuses to give her information to her Fists who in turn can't give the information to their Captains and so on. I know in military you receive your orders and you do your mission but I suspect they generally have more intelligent on their mission than the Bonehunters get. And take into account her 'defeat' at Y'Ghatan I doubt the army would be so loyal to her (I don't blame her, she actually did quite well saving as many as she did).

[beru]

Studlock, on 12 September 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

The one thing about Tavore that does bug me is the lack of communication and the loyalty she receives. Honestly I don't think the army would be all that loyal to her because she refuses to give her information to her Fists who in turn can't give the information to their Captains and so on. I know in military you receive your orders and you do your mission but I suspect they generally have more intelligent on their mission than the Bonehunters get. And take into account her 'defeat' at Y'Ghatan I doubt the army would be so loyal to her (I don't blame her, she actually did quite well saving as many as she did).

i see this as a reason to follow her. Since she does not explain herself, everyone think she knows whats going on. Also Fiddler and the other veterans knows what happens when an army does not trust the higher ups, and therefor tries to keep the army together.

All this is IMO, obviously

[Studlock]

beru, on 12 September 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Studlock, on 12 September 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

The one thing about Tavore that does bug me is the lack of communication and the loyalty she receives. Honestly I don't think the army would be all that loyal to her because she refuses to give her information to her Fists who in turn can't give the information to their Captains and so on. I know in military you receive your orders and you do your mission but I suspect they generally have more intelligent on their mission than the Bonehunters get. And take into account her 'defeat' at Y'Ghatan I doubt the army would be so loyal to her (I don't blame her, she actually did quite well saving as many as she did).

i see this as a reason to follow her. Since she does not explain herself, everyone think she knows whats going on. Also Fiddler and the other veterans knows what happens when an army does not trust the higher ups, and therefor tries to keep the army together.

All this is IMO, obviously

I don't know about that, though I'll concede the point the way the veterans hold it together at the squad based level but I still doubt that she would hold the officers loyalty after Y'Ghatan. She was brutalized there, though no fault her own, showing she isn't all knowing and still she says nothing about her plans. Honestly Blistig's character arc always held most true for me starting with the 'omen' he receives in BH.

Don't get me wrong here, I think Tavore is a great character (Though I still hold her sisters death against her) I don't think at this point in the game she warrants such loyalty.

[Shal-morzinn]

Okay, so I agree that in some cases Tavore did the best that was possible and somehow has escaped Seven Cities with an almost intact army while fighting plagues and fanatical armies. But couple of things that still are still unanswered:

• Why were Quick Ben and Kalam send to the imperial warren just before the siege of Y'Ghatan, where they eventually accomplished nothing(apart from a highly unusual and formal dinner with Cotillion), when they could have made a difference with the siege?
• Pearl was right there with the army during the siege, and he could have been easily ordered (even though he would have been reluctant) to infiltrate Y'Ghatan, where he could have conducted some assassinations(maybe even Leoman), or atleast would have found out about the empty streets or the houses bursting full with olive oil. In fact, we have seen with Pale and Darujhistan, that the standard Malazan practice of siege is to first infiltrate using Claws and cause mayhem and confusion among the authorities, and then take advantage by sending in the army.
  

[beru]

Tavore did not use QB, Kalam and Pearl beacuse she wanted her army to have one victory that was their own, as all their victrorys had been due to random circumstances.

Also she did not know who sha'ik was, and therefor does not know that she killed her sister.

[gulex]

Yea sure - down vote my post because i articulate an opinion slightly critical to certain aspects of his books. Sure, this forum is dedicated to him - but i didn't know we had to conform to senseless fanboyism.

The argument that a commander who refuses to explain anything should somehow command more respect because people think she knows what she is doing is, imo, weak. As i recall the marines spend alot of time throughout the books speculating what she is doing. That doesn't exactly imply certainty or total belief in the actions of their commander. Realistically i think an army would desert if put under such pressure from a Commander with so little charisma who does practically nothing to ensure morale in her ranks.

This post has been edited by gulex: 12 September 2012 - 12:10 PM

[beru]

But remember that most of the army is not conscripted, and you will also find that there is more that can hold a army together than a charismatic commander.

[beru]

But remember that most of the army is not conscripted, and you will also find that there is more that can hold a army together than a charismatic commander.

[Puck]

Shal-morzinn, on 12 September 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

Okay, so I agree that in some cases Tavore did the best that was possible and somehow has escaped Seven Cities with an almost intact army while fighting plagues and fanatical armies. But couple of things that still are still unanswered:
[list][*]Why were Quick Ben and Kalam send to the imperial warren just before the siege of Y'Ghatan, where they eventually accomplished nothing(apart from a highly unusual and formal dinner with Cotillion), when they could have made a difference with the siege?

To Kalam and QB: various reasons, as basically anything that happens in these books has several of them.. For one, there's what beru already said about the army gaining a victory on their own, and also Tavore wanted the Imperial Warren checked for nasty stuff, and who would be better suited to that than K and QB? As to why and such, big RAFO.

gulex, on 12 September 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

The argument that a commander who refuses to explain anything should somehow command more respect because people think she knows what she is doing is, imo, weak. As i recall the marines spend alot of time throughout the books speculating what she is doing. That doesn't exactly imply certainty or total belief in the actions of their commander. Realistically i think an army would desert if put under such pressure from a Commander with so little charisma who does practically nothing to ensure morale in her ranks.

The relationships between people and the respective groups they count themselves as parts of are rather more complex than 'she's not telling me anything, let's desert'. Especially among people like the marines whose humor I think most of us readers do enjoy it's one thing what they say and another what they believe/follow. On the march an army has little else to do but question their superiors, that's part of the etikette. Also, certainty is not neccessary, they're part of an army and as far as tBH nothing has happened to make them do anything else but follow orders, not even considering the fact that most soldiers in Tavore's army are recruits and don't know what else to do anyway. Sure, they took losses at Y'Ghatan, but that kind of thing happens, they weren't there to eat cake.

That said, nobody's pledging themselves to Tavore (except the Grey Helms and they are doing so because their gods told them to) and nobody's putting themselves at her service. All the army is doing is follow her because, well, she IS Adjunct to the Empress and they're on a campaign. And realistically speaking, to use your words, that is no reason to desert or revolt. Tavore fully knows she's not the person to inspire loyalty and leaves this to those people who are, in particular the sergeants and veterans who are experienced enough to not cry foul just because they don't get everything laid out in detail. Actually, I think Tavore does quite well what she does considering you didn't notice it.

Frankly, if I were part of the Bonehunters, I'd rather follow Tavore as she is instead of any of you guys who cry she's bad at this and that because as a reader you are much smarter in hindsight. Or so you think. But then again, have you finished the series? If tBH messes with your groove regarding Tavore, you're going to have lots of fun. If you have finished the series then it seems like you're kinda missing the point of it all.

This post has been edited by Puck: 12 September 2012 - 02:36 PM

[gulex]

Puck, on 12 September 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Shal-morzinn, on 12 September 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

Okay, so I agree that in some cases Tavore did the best that was possible and somehow has escaped Seven Cities with an almost intact army while fighting plagues and fanatical armies. But couple of things that still are still unanswered:
[list][*]Why were Quick Ben and Kalam send to the imperial warren just before the siege of Y'Ghatan, where they eventually accomplished nothing(apart from a highly unusual and formal dinner with Cotillion), when they could have made a difference with the siege?

To Kalam and QB: various reasons, as basically anything that happens in these books has several of them.. For one, there's what beru already said about the army gaining a victory on their own, and also Tavore wanted the Imperial Warren checked for nasty stuff, and who would be better suited to that than K and QB? As to why and such, big RAFO.

gulex, on 12 September 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

The argument that a commander who refuses to explain anything should somehow command more respect because people think she knows what she is doing is, imo, weak. As i recall the marines spend alot of time throughout the books speculating what she is doing. That doesn't exactly imply certainty or total belief in the actions of their commander. Realistically i think an army would desert if put under such pressure from a Commander with so little charisma who does practically nothing to ensure morale in her ranks.

The relationships between people and the respective groups they count themselves as parts of are rather more complex than 'she's not telling me anything, let's desert'. Especially among people like the marines whose humor I think most of us readers do enjoy it's one thing what they say and another what they believe/follow. On the march an army has little else to do but question their superiors, that's part of the etikette. Also, certainty is not neccessary, they're part of an army and as far as tBH nothing has happened to make them do anything else but follow orders, not even considering the fact that most soldiers in Tavore's army are recruits and don't know what else to do anyway. Sure, they took losses at Y'Ghatan, but that kind of thing happens, they weren't there to eat cake.

That said, nobody's pledging themselves to Tavore (except the Grey Helms and they are doing so because their gods told them to) and nobody's putting themselves at her service. All the army is doing is follow her because, well, she IS Adjunct to the Empress and they're on a campaign. And realistically speaking, to use your words, that is no reason to desert or revolt. Tavore fully knows she's not the person to inspire loyalty and leaves this to those people who are, in particular the sergeants and veterans who are experienced enough to not cry foul just because they don't get everything laid out in detail.

Frankly, if I were part of the Bonehunters, I'd rather follow Tavore as she is instead of any of you guys who cry she's bad at this and that because as a reader you are much smarter in hindsight. Or so you think. But then again, have you finished the series? If tBH messes with your groove regarding Tavore, you're going to have lots of fun. If you have finished the series then it seems like you're kinda missing the point of it all.

Yes Puck, i have finished the series - and my post was mainly directed at the post-tbH events. They go through some pretty tough stuff which we obviously dont want to spoil for people who haven't read the series. The loyalty they display to her through most of the series is realistic enough, granted. Post-TBH is different though and that is where my critique was aimed actually.
You make a good point concerning her Officers, however. They are (mostly) men of loyalty and worth and that'll certainly have a positive effect upon the morale. But going through 9½ book without knowing the exact intent of your commander and just smiling death in the face. I find that hard to believe - perhaps from the inner circle of veterans but not otherwise.

I may be the only one on this forum who did not enjoy the Bonehunter part of the books very much. It just got too Brothers-in-Arms we're-all-in-this-togetherish and it made me nauseous to be honest. I LOVED the Bridgeburner stuff. Post-TBH it was the 'side plots' of Mappo/Icarium, the Tiste and the Letherii empire-plot that made me keep reading. As i said, Erikson does culture and mythological/godly omnipotence like no one else.

Edit: The Letherii are not post-TBH - but you get my drift. FFS i cant seem to make a single post withour editing it ...

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Frankly, if I were part of the Bonehunters, I'd rather follow Tavore as she is instead of any of you guys who cry she's bad at this and that because as a reader you are much smarter in hindsight.

You would not follow me, a guy you dont know with no military credentials, into certain death? im crushed.

This post has been edited by gulex: 12 September 2012 - 02:51 PM

[Abyss]

Shal-morzinn, on 12 September 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

Okay, so I agree that in some cases Tavore did the best that was possible and somehow has escaped Seven Cities with an almost intact army while fighting plagues and fanatical armies. But couple of things that still are still unanswered:

• Why were Quick Ben and Kalam send to the imperial warren just before the siege of Y'Ghatan, where they eventually accomplished nothing(apart from a highly unusual and formal dinner with Cotillion), when they could have made a difference with the siege?

I agree with the upthread responses and would add that due to QB's connection to Hood and Kalam's to the Rope, Tavore may not have trusted them.

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Pearl was right there with the army during the siege, and he could have been easily ordered (even though he would have been reluctant) to infiltrate Y'Ghatan, ...

Pearl wasn't under her command, and the Malazan practice was to send in an entire cadre of Claw, not just one reluctant dude who was on the outs with Topper at the time and had failed on his last mission for her (as far as she knew).

gulex, on 12 September 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

...The argument that a commander who refuses to explain anything should somehow command more respect because people think she knows what she is doing is, imo, weak. ...

This relationship between the BHs and Tavore is actually central to TB and subsequent books. It's SUPPOSED to be complex and the reader is SUPPOSED to question it.

But that doesn't mean it's beyond comprehension or belief.

beru, on 12 September 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

But remember that most of the army is not conscripted, and you will also find that there is more that can hold a army together than a charismatic commander.

Agreed and enough characters spend time discussing exactly that.


@Gulex - re

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Yes Puck, i have finished the series - and my post was mainly directed at the post-tbH events. ...

Then you should be raising the subject in a post TB forum.

[Puck]

gulex, on 12 September 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

Yes Puck, i have finished the series - and my post was mainly directed at the post-tbH events. They go through some pretty tough stuff which we obviously dont want to spoil for people who haven't read the series. The loyalty they display to her through most of the series is realistic enough, granted. Post-TBH is different though and that is where my critique was aimed actually.
You make a good point concerning her Officers, however. They are (mostly) men of loyalty and worth and that'll certainly have a positive effect upon the morale. But going through 9½ book without knowing the exact intent of your commander and just smiling death in the face. I find that hard to believe - perhaps from the inner circle of veterans but not otherwise.

I may be the only one on this forum who did not enjoy the Bonehunter part of the books very much. It just got too Brothers-in-Arms we're-all-in-this-togetherish and it made me nauseous to be honest. I LOVED the Bridgeburner stuff. Post-TBH it was the 'side plots' of Mappo/Icarium, the Tiste and the Letherii empire-plot that made me keep reading. As i said, Erikson does culture and mythological/godly omnipotence like no one else.

Edit: The Letherii are not post-TBH - but you get my drift. FFS i cant seem to make a single post withour editing it ...

Then you should, as Abyss already poited out, post your concerns in a post-tBH forum, because as of tBH they are, as you say, not a problem (thought you'd probably get the same answers as here, just more open about plot details). And later on you are supposed to question Tavore's motives, so it's not like it's a flaw in the writing when it's expressly written so that you question what happens.

Personally, I do prefer the Lether plot as well, but as of tBH this is not an issue and the orginal thread starter asked about the events at Y'Ghatan.

Also, to nitpick.. the BH (and thus Tavore) only feature in five books, not 9½

This post has been edited by Puck: 12 September 2012 - 03:26 PM