[Brujah]

The battle of the sword wielding bad guys.

This would be a battle I'd like to see.

What does our beloved community think?

[EmperorMagus]

This is a close call. I'm more inclined toward Kallor, because of his experience .

[RSM616]

Kallor wins. Skinner is skilled with a sword and has that armour with the power of the crippled god but Kallor was so dangerous his subjects had to call down a foreign god and when 3 elder gods intervened, he cursed them at the same time as they cursed him. Also if we look at sword fighting skill we can cap their abilities as great but not unstoppable as they both got their arses handed to them by Dassem Ultor with him not having to try massively hard.

This post has been edited by RSM616: 26 August 2012 - 07:20 AM

[Brujah]

Wow, I'm surprised at the results of this one. I thought the voting would be a little closer, and I definitely didn't expect such a huge blow out. I voted Kallor, and figured he'd win, just not so clearly, because in the thread where people were ranking warriors and swordsman, many had skinner in the top 5 or so, and kallor only in the top 10. I am however, happy with these results. I think Kallor is one of the most interesting 'bad' guy characters of any series.

[blackzoid]

Skinner once fought Dassem to a draw. Kallor never did. Though they both got taken out by him later.
Old-pre armour Skinner for the win.

[Silencer]

blackzoid, on 28 August 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

Skinner once fought Dassem to a draw. Kallor never did. Though they both got taken out by him later.
Old-pre armour Skinner for the win.

This argument has been done to death elsewhere, so I'll try and restate simply:

This is a legend. All we KNOW for certain, is that Skinner and Dassem fought (or were meant to fight). We never get to see it on-page and the only sources on what went down are tertiary and/or biased to hell. It's in the same vein as the Draconus/Rake duel; we know it happened, we know it lasted three days, and that the end result was Draconus locked up in his own sword, but that's it. Same thing here. We don't even have the involved parties' take on events. So basically, the bit that we know, tells us nothing. The bit that is speculation, doesn't even hold the value of, say, Envy's comments about Rake visiting the Seguleh island, in that they come from biased sources and more likely rumours than anything. At least Envy probably got her stuff from the guy involved, and we know Rake is unlikely to lie to make himself look awesome, unlike, say, Skinner.

It's interesting that Skinner walked away from a confrontation of any kind with Dassem, yes, but it's not proof of their equivalence by a long shot, nor is it a great indication of how Skinner would fare against Kallor. Considering Skinner, despite impenetrable armour of doom, got his ass literally handed to him on a plate the last time he fought Dassem, it's pretty clear he's not anywhere near Dassem on the scale; Kallor's biggest weakness in this duel would be (as ever) his arrogance, not his skill.

I personally think they're pretty equal, but give an edge to Kallor assuming he doesn't totally underestimate his opponent like he does with Dassem.

Besides, the overwhelming vote for Kallor does come from the fact that he's somewhat more popular as a character than Skinner. These things were ever a popularity contest more than anything else. XD

[Kanese S's]

I actually think that Skinner may have become over-reliant on his fancy new armor.

[Silencer]

Kanese S, on 29 August 2012 - 04:51 AM, said:

I actually think that Skinner may have become over-reliant on his fancy new armor.

I agree, that's the most logical explanation for the frankly massive apparent disparity in skill we see (outside of, "Skinner lied about his fight with Dassem"). The only thing that I find strange about that explanation is how a swordsman of Skinner's supposed calibre (at least near Dassem's level) who KNOWS how badass his opponent is, would overlook the possibility the First Sword-turned-Ascendant might, y'know, notice and take advantage of gaps in the armour, and still maintain his swordsmanship at an above-average level (let's face it, Skinner's skill with a blade was average as far as the series goes in that fight); even if he was planning on letting Dassem just get tired, he should have been prepared and ready to block anything heading for a weak point. Granted, Skinner's arrogance (especially backed by Elder Goddess superarmour) could rival Kallor's, I'm sure, but come on...he was facing DASSEM. Even Karsa acknowledged Dassem was fucking good, and that was before seeing him go all out with Rake. Hell, KALLOR (grudgingly) acknowledged he couldn't take Rake/Brood/Dassem on in a fight way back in MoI. KALLOR. Confidence in the armour is one thing, but it's still excessive considering the opponent.

The change just seems too massive to me, anyway. It probably doesn't help that it's ICE writing about that duel, and the Kallor duel, while it was SE writing all the other stuff. *shrug*

[blackzoid]

Silencer, on 29 August 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

The change just seems too massive to me, anyway. It probably doesn't help that it's ICE writing about that duel, and the Kallor duel, while it was SE writing all the other stuff. *shrug*

Unless you are talking about the Karsa stuff, I'm pretty certain that ICE wrote all mentions of the first Skinner/Dassem fight in the past.
Temper's recollections in NOK, Skinner's babblings to Kyle about Dassem getting in his way when he tried to get to Kellevend on Stratem, Shimmer's thoughts when Skinner parleys with Dom in RotCG about Skinner being one of the few people to ever walk away from his predecessor as First Sword etc.

I guess ICE built up his reputation and didn't really deliver. Though maybe Skinner just got very very lazy and out of shape??

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 29 August 2012 - 06:54 PM

[the broken]

I think that Dassem's skill level has gone up a few bars since they last fought. Back then, he was just the Knight of Hood. Since then, he's become Dessembrae, and found a sword that is unbeatable if the wielder is single minded.


A rematch might be interesting, now that Skinner knows his armour isn't enough, and Dassem has lost his singular will.

Quote

Skinner's skill with a blade was average as far as the series goes in that fight

Average? Everyone else who fights Dassem, with a few obvious exceptions, gets decapitated in the first few moves. Dassem was trying to do that, but Skinner snapped his head back quick enough that he only had his throat cut, and not even a fatal strike. He backed away with 'sword still steady'

Skinner is not Dassem's equal in skill, but he might be capable of beating him all the same. Blues is definitively the best duellist in the Guard, but it was Skinner, not Blues, that fought Dassem to a standstill. Iron Bars and Skinnere can overbear Blues without being as skilled. So Skinner trusted his armour for defence, and tried to break Dassem's arms with raw power and poison. Skill with a sword isn't the only way to win a fight. If he had a shield, I think Dassem might have a very hard time breaking his guard, while still being more skilled.

Kallor v Skinner... that's a fight I'd pay to see. Assuming Kallor knew who he was, and saw reason to go up against him (Skinner is, say, blocking his path to a storeroom of century candles). I honestly don't know who would win. I like Kallor better, but I don't know if he's unbeatable.

This post has been edited by the broken: 29 August 2012 - 07:28 PM

[Ukjent]

Got to go for Kallor, who else can be attacked by two dragons and manage to kill one of them en still just walk on like nothing happened.

[Kanese S's]

I was also suggesting that Skinner had stopped training quite as much, perhaps gotten lazy, going long periods between actually fighting anyone who could possibly be any threat.

[Brujah]

Good stuff in this one, guys. I'm always reminded of aspects of each fighter that I'd forgotten or either read about it wrong or on the wrong context. Good stuff, indeed. Thank you guys for sharing your thoughts and your knowledge base.

[Dolmen 2.0]

you know...one thing that bugs me is that dassem did not kill kallor with such a clear and awesome strike. He just got sand. Is kallor immortal? If so then this fight becomes tricky, a matter of who can lop off the most body parts rather than a single strike affair.


When Kallor fought Spinnock, they fought an entire night and spinnock barely made it. This is rakes second. I'd expect him to be one of the best, maybe slightly above iron bars level? Kallor couldn't push through Spinnock. Meaning Spinnock was better defensively. I can't recall mention of injury to kallor but I think he wouldn't be slowed down by normal means. Kallor could be a zombiesque creature making a fight with skinner who is a zombie in his own right a VERY close thing. Lets all not forget that somehow skinner screwed things up for the seguleh second bad enough for the second most badass seguleh alive(ish) to want him dead.


This says more about dassem and the first than it does about skinner but surely theres something to skinner that makes him difficult for most opponents and easy as pie for certain elites? I think if you play skinner at his own game, brutal force, he will kill you. Anything fancy has him at a disadvantage. Someone like karsa would probably have a tough time with skinner while someone like dancer would shave him to pieces.


I think kallor is a brute, route one kind of fighter. Quick but not too fancy. He might find skinner tough. I dont think kallor could manage fancy like the second and skinner (some how) took the second out. Gonna ride against the wave here and call skinner a likely winner 3 to 2 out of 5.

[HoosierDaddy]

Kallor Me Bad.

[Brujah]

Yeah, I really love the context of all the things that would go into a fight like this. I think we can all agree that it would have been AWESOME to witness the Rake vs Dassem Exchange, and quite a few others, but something about this match up speaks to me. I'd, for reasons I can't really put my finger on, really love to witness this battle. I'd love to hear Kallor's shit talking leading up to him getting that heavy blade off his shoulder, and Skinner and his reaction. Hell, the foreplay before the actual battle would almost be as good as the battle itself.

[Kanese S's]

Kallor is not immortal. He uses century candles.

[Malaclypse]

this is just a coolness thing. Kallor is miles cooler than Skinner and so he wins by virtue of being more interesting. Nobody is that interested to see what Skinner does next cuz he is generic overpowered douchenozzle. Kallor is complicated and interesting. End of.

[Vaddon Ra]

Brujah, on 27 August 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Wow, I'm surprised at the results of this one. I thought the voting would be a little closer, and I definitely didn't expect such a huge blow out. I voted Kallor, and figured he'd win, just not so clearly, because in the thread where people were ranking warriors and swordsman, many had skinner in the top 5 or so, and kallor only in the top 10. I am however, happy with these results. I think Kallor is one of the most interesting 'bad' guy characters of any series.

It's cos Kallor (despite being a bastard) is a firm fan favourite and I think SE gives him a lot more sympathy at the end of TTH and the flashback in TCG...Skinner is just, well, I've not actually ever seen any real love for skinner, he's just a dude with cheating armour on who betrays people and all the other best characters in the books want to kill..

so yeah, Kallor all the way

[Malaclypse]

um, did you just repeat what I said in less efficient language? Don't follow me dude, I be laying mines