[Gutkrusha]

the broken, on 02 September 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

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And he fought off the dozen-or-so best Claw in the Empire, plus Laseen, plus Topper, while protecting a useless Kellanved, with no magic, and killed all of them barring the two most capable people in the room whom they MAY have wanted to keep alive anyway.

We don't see that fight. And I think you are seriously underestimating Kellanved there. The narration says he's useless ...from Kiska's point of view. And she is obviously an expert on what someone she's never met is capable of. The Emperor has to have picked up some hand to hand skills in the last century or so.

Y'know, that kind of makes me curious. Kellanved was an old man before he founded the empire, and when he left it, it was between 80-100 years old.. Makes you wonder if it wasn't his magic alone that kept him walking or if, like Kallor, he was kept alive by alchemies (Which, based on Duiker saying he learned age-slowing alchemies from the Emperor, is possible.). It's never said if Kellanved has ANY physical prowess at all, just that he always had Dancer with him. Having the world's best assassin at your side would drastically reduce the need for physical aptitude.

[Kanese S's]

Yeah... I don't think Kellanved was much of a fighter, physically. I mean, sure, he may have known a thing or two, enough to beat up the average shmuck, but against several Claw? I don't think his abilities would have counted for much.

[Gutkrusha]

Kanese S, on 02 September 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Yeah... I don't think Kellanved was much of a fighter, physically. I mean, sure, he may have known a thing or two, enough to beat up the average shmuck, but against several Claw? I don't think his abilities would have counted for much.

Exactly. Knowing HOW to do something doesn't mean you're proficient at it. I'm pretty sure Kiska's assessment is correct when she considers him useless in the melee with the Claw.

[the broken]

Gutkrusha, on 02 September 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 02 September 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Yeah... I don't think Kellanved was much of a fighter, physically. I mean, sure, he may have known a thing or two, enough to beat up the average shmuck, but against several Claw? I don't think his abilities would have counted for much.

Exactly. Knowing HOW to do something doesn't mean you're proficient at it. I'm pretty sure Kiska's assessment is correct when she considers him useless in the melee with the Claw.

Possible. But I think it's equally possible that he's much more capable at hand to hand combat than anyone knows. One of his character traits is to not use his abilities to their fullest extent, and it's a good policy to create the impression that you're completely hopeless in a fight in order to be underestimated when the time comes you need to defend yourself. He's not Dancer's equal, but he could still be capable enough.

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Kellanved was an old man before he founded the empire, and when he left it, it was between 80-100 years old.. Makes you wonder if it wasn't his magic alone that kept him walking or if, like Kallor, he was kept alive by alchemies (Which, based on Duiker saying he learned age-slowing alchemies from the Emperor, is possible.).]

And being old and sustained by alchemies makes you incapable of melee combat? Kallor would like a word.

We see plenty of old mages. Tattersail is centuries old, so is Calot, and they're still in good shape. Most of the mages in ROTCG kept in the otataral mines have been around for a while. Do we even know that Kellanved actually looked like an old man? Kiska assumes he's old, because he's been the emperor for a century. She has never seen him, and we only see his god form (where he usually tends to be shrouded in shadows) About all we know is he carries a cane.

[Aptorian]

I get the idea of Kelanved being more formidable than he appears but you still need to take his age into account. One has to wonder how much of his appearance is an illusion I guess. He could always be wrapped in shadows and illusions making people see what he wants them to see but personally I think he really is as crooked and frail as he appears. This doesn't mean that he is helpless though. We've seen how strong mages can be physically. I bet Kelanved could have snapped bones and wripped tissue apart with ease. I don't think you'd have wanted to lay hands on him.

Also, the way I read the account of the fight in NOK from the observations of Kiska, it looked like Kelanved was using magic even though Ottataral was present. He was using enough power upstairs above Tay and Kiska that it was giving Tayschren a nosebleed. I don't think Kelanved was completely helpless. I don't think that man was ever completely helpless. One has to wonder if Kelanved knew enough about the Tiste warrens to pull one out as a shaved knuckle in the presence of ottataral? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

[Dolmen 2.0]

I agree with apt. Kurald Emurlahn seems a very likely option for kellanved even pre-ascension. The presence of ottataral in my mind was just a trapping element to prevent a warren chase. It wasn't so much present to keep the two in check as it was to level the playing field a bit.

[Silencer]

So you're saying a bunch of Claw managed to take down a man almost as, if not more powerful than Tayschrenn using an Elder warren, backed up by the most deadly assassin and shadow dancer in existence...how? >.>

Now, I will grant that if they WANTED to lose that fight, and did so on purpose, then it's plausible. But honestly I think they could have pulled that off even with a seriously hamstrung Kellanved just as well. I was under the impression that the gaping hole in the balcony was what happened when Kellanved got far enough from the Otataral to use his magic a bit (not being able to direct it back towards the room and their enemies as the Otataral would nullify it once more) and they needed an exit.


As far as Kellanved's martial prowess goes; there is no evidence that he has any skills sufficient to make a difference in a fight other than his magic. He is likely not to be *completely* useless, sure, but I doubt he was tearing Claws apart left right and centre, too. The man can probably move a lot quicker than we see him do, and he's got some good resilience. At the end of the day though, who is supporting whom at the end of that fight and why did Dancer take so many wounds ostensibly protecting Kellanved if Kellanved can hold his own?

Even assuming he CAN hold his own, we're left with two facts; that he is renowned for not showing his hand, and that a combat-capable Kellanved plus Dancer would not have "lost" that fight. What do you get if you put those two together? Absolutely no reason for Kellanved to do anything but pretend he's completely useless even if he wasn't, because the only reason they didn't kill everyone there was because they WANTED things to go the way they did, which leads us back to the original claim that Dancer, by his lonesome, defending a "useless" Kellanved, fucked shit up HARD. Based on the limited information we have at hand is there really much else we can presume? :S

[the broken]

Silencer, on 03 September 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

So you're saying a bunch of Claw managed to take down a man almost as, if not more powerful than Tayschrenn using an Elder warren, backed up by the most deadly assassin and shadow dancer in existence...how? >.>

Now, I will grant that if they WANTED to lose that fight, and did so on purpose, then it's plausible. But honestly I think they could have pulled that off even with a seriously hamstrung Kellanved just as well. I was under the impression that the gaping hole in the balcony was what happened when Kellanved got far enough from the Otataral to use his magic a bit (not being able to direct it back towards the room and their enemies as the Otataral would nullify it once more) and they needed an exit.


As far as Kellanved's martial prowess goes; there is no evidence that he has any skills sufficient to make a difference in a fight other than his magic. He is likely not to be *completely* useless, sure, but I doubt he was tearing Claws apart left right and centre, too. The man can probably move a lot quicker than we see him do, and he's got some good resilience. At the end of the day though, who is supporting whom at the end of that fight and why did Dancer take so many wounds ostensibly protecting Kellanved if Kellanved can hold his own?

Even assuming he CAN hold his own, we're left with two facts; that he is renowned for not showing his hand, and that a combat-capable Kellanved plus Dancer would not have "lost" that fight. What do you get if you put those two together? Absolutely no reason for Kellanved to do anything but pretend he's completely useless even if he wasn't, because the only reason they didn't kill everyone there was because they WANTED things to go the way they did, which leads us back to the original claim that Dancer, by his lonesome, defending a "useless" Kellanved, fucked shit up HARD. Based on the limited information we have at hand is there really much else we can presume? :S

I'm not arguing that Kellanved is Dancer's equal, but I do think he might be capable enough to do a fair job of defending himself if pushed.

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I get the idea of Kelanved being more formidable than he appears but you still need to take his age into account.

Why? He's a quasi ascendant already from the deadhouse, he doesn't have to age like normal humans.

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Dancer take so many wounds ostensibly protecting Kellanved if Kellanved can hold his own?

Because several claws were trying to stab both of them? How do we know he took so many wounds protecting Kellanved? Maybe the claws focused on him most as the more dangerous of the two.

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One has to wonder if Kelanved knew enough about the Tiste warrens to pull one out as a shaved knuckle in the presence of ottataral?

Knowledge isn't enough, you have to have Andii blood, or a patron of that race.

Topper can use Kurald Galain, because of his ancestry.

[Silk]

and at any point in the books does SE state that Kel does not have any ancient blood in his lineage?

For all we know he may have edur blood sittign somewhre inside him which is in a round about way why shadow was the right choice for him?

[Kanese S's]

It was the right choice for him because the throne of shadow was vacant at the time, as well as Dancer already having some links to shadow.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Very likely kelenved has edur blood in him. He was a freakishly powerful human. There must be a level of inheritance to that power. Not once has erikson hinted at kelenveds lineage. Dal hon natives are dark enough to hide some edur and/or andii blood in them. His claim to shadow seems too big of a coincidence for there not to be some sort of biological link.

This post has been edited by Dolmen+: 05 September 2012 - 10:07 AM

[the broken]

There's no evidence one way or the other. It's possible, but personally I doubt it.

[Brujah]

Silencer, on 03 September 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

So you're saying a bunch of Claw managed to take down a man almost as, if not more powerful than Tayschrenn using an Elder warren, backed up by the most deadly assassin and shadow dancer in existence...how? >.>

Now, I will grant that if they WANTED to lose that fight, and did so on purpose, then it's plausible. But honestly I think they could have pulled that off even with a seriously hamstrung Kellanved just as well. I was under the impression that the gaping hole in the balcony was what happened when Kellanved got far enough from the Otataral to use his magic a bit (not being able to direct it back towards the room and their enemies as the Otataral would nullify it once more) and they needed an exit.


As far as Kellanved's martial prowess goes; there is no evidence that he has any skills sufficient to make a difference in a fight other than his magic. He is likely not to be *completely* useless, sure, but I doubt he was tearing Claws apart left right and centre, too. The man can probably move a lot quicker than we see him do, and he's got some good resilience. At the end of the day though, who is supporting whom at the end of that fight and why did Dancer take so many wounds ostensibly protecting Kellanved if Kellanved can hold his own?

Even assuming he CAN hold his own, we're left with two facts; that he is renowned for not showing his hand, and that a combat-capable Kellanved plus Dancer would not have "lost" that fight. What do you get if you put those two together? Absolutely no reason for Kellanved to do anything but pretend he's completely useless even if he wasn't, because the only reason they didn't kill everyone there was because they WANTED things to go the way they did, which leads us back to the original claim that Dancer, by his lonesome, defending a "useless" Kellanved, fucked shit up HARD. Based on the limited information we have at hand is there really much else we can presume? :S

Reading back over info about this fight between Kellanved and Dancer vs all the claw, Laseen, Topper, Possum, etc. It looked as if many were having a hard time picturing how the battle would go on Kellanved and Dancer's side of things. Kellanved is supposedly injured, and Dancer is just in total beast-mode. I was thinking that the perfect way to picture how Kellanved and Dancer probably worked together was to just imagine them as Quick Ben and Kalam. Dancer would be Kalam defending Kellanved(Quick). We never see Quick Ben really doing any melee, so Kellanved wouldn't really have to be able to, even in such tight areas if he's anywhere close to as crafty as Quick is, and we absolutely know that Kellanved is indeed crafty. I picture it as Dancer defending the line and holding them back while Kellanved used the many tricks up his sleeve to bolster Dancer's abilities. In fact, one reason for a seemingly useless Kellanved would have been if he had somehow been using all his ability to focus on making Dancer even more powerful.

[Kanese S's]

There was a big pile of otataral dust in the room, wasn't there? Unless Kellanved possessed elder warrens, he really couldn't do much.

Besides which, everyone thinking they were dead worked perfectly for them, as pointed out in House of Chains, if they'd ascended and taken Shadow while still ruling a mortal empire, the rest of the pantheon might have ganged up and crushed both. Far better to appear to be assassinated, while still leaving the empire they built in place, and then take High House Shadow without much apparent connection (at first) to a mortal government, giving them time to consolidate their strength before everyone knew who they actually were.