[Abyss]

Agreed. His chatter with Cryl, friendship with Silchas and going off on the Legionnaires at the end paints a very very different picture from the essentially 'evil' draconic soletaken we met in MT and RG.

We saw him ref'd as 'Father Shadow' more than once, and there was that line about him spilling royal blood in Kurald Emurlahn - which doesn't even exist yet - . and now we know those things could mean more than we thought... i'm very, very curious.


On another front, a review posted at TOR.COM just prompted me to realize the line fro MT about 'Mother Dark's first children were not Tiste Andii' has a WHOLE other meaning now.

[Malbolge]

On the subject of Scabandari, and Shadow, specifically I thought his relationship with Silchas was well done... it'll be interesting to see what ever does come of Silchas visiting Sedis, if he ever does. Although, I'd assume Scabandari would easily be exonerated of any part in what happened to House Enes, what with him being with the Purake brothers on their way there, being in Kharkanas prior to that, and having escorted the Jheleck children before that. On a more general note, I thought it was interesting that the two, perhaps, most prominent Edur characters we know about (Scabandari and Kagamandara Tulas Shorn) are both Legion commanders who have renounced the current Liosan Legion. I think that'll play into how Shadow comes in to play, and the peace that Shadow is supposed to be creating.

As for Syntara... I don't think not being referenced in other books doesn't mean much. We know she's a Mahybe, created by T'riss, and there seems to be a lot of discussion about how she is (or will be) a mirror to Emral Lanear... i.e. High Priestess of Liossan/Light. We didn't know Emral Lanear's name before FoD.

My personal theory is...

Spoiler

T'riss put the Vitr into her, and she'll be responsible or perhaps consumed, in some way, for the creation of Kurald Thyrllan, or a Liossan Terondai or similar.

Or, as Abyss says, she'll just be forgotten...

[amphibian]

What if Syntara = Menadore?

[Malbolge]

Abyss, on 27 August 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

BEST MOMENT OF IRREVERENCE - Rise. Hmmm, there's a god up that tree and she just killed a friend of mine. I think i'll set that tree on fire.

Hate to be a pedant (I don't really), but that was Rint... the Border sword. Rise (Herat) was the Historian in the Citadel.

[Abyss]

Malbolge, on 31 August 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Abyss, on 27 August 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

BEST MOMENT OF IRREVERENCE - Rise. Hmmm, there's a god up that tree and she just killed a friend of mine. I think i'll set that tree on fire.

Hate to be a pedant (I don't really), but that was Rint... the Border sword. Rise (Herat) was the Historian in the Citadel.

Noted, corrected, Rint/Rise/Risp resentment reiterated.

[Destiny]

I too found it interesting to see Scabandari completely turned around. I actually really like him now. So I'm very curious to see how he goes from this likable honorable guy to someone who stabs his BFF in the back.

I'm also not entirely convinced Urusander is the actual FL. He seems too nice to be the leader of such a judgmental, cold-blooded, arrogant group of people. So I think the current situation will turn into a war between those loyal to Urusander and those that went into the countryside to murder civilians. Hunn Raal will clash with Urusander and probably kill him, take control of the legion, and Syntara can then say "oops, my mistake, you're the actual FL". Those loyal to Urusander (like Scabandari and Tulas) can then either join the Liosan, or they can turn their backs on them and become the Edur. They could kind of be like the Deniers, choosing neither Light nor Dark, but something in between aka Shadow.
But that's just my theory.

[Malbolge]

Destiny, on 01 September 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

I'm also not entirely convinced Urusander is the actual FL. He seems too nice to be the leader of such a judgmental, cold-blooded, arrogant group of people.

I guess it depends how much of a 'Leader' Father Light becomes for the Liossan. From what we've seen of the Andii, Mother Dark hasn't exactly been leading them by the nose, even before she turned her back/disappeared. Aside from the presence in their minds occasionally, and her pronouncement to Emral Lanear ("worship me in embracing mystery") she doesn't seem to have that much influence on her people. Could be the same for Urusander, in that by becoming FL, he has to step away from the mortal Liossan, having no direct or overt 'control' or leadership over them... leaving that, perhaps, to people like Syntara (and maybe Huun Raal), and thus a people that do not reflect FL exactly.

Then there's that old chestnut that is constantly appearing in the Malazan books... who truly leads and has power and control in the God/Worshipper dichotomy? Does a God guide and influence his people, or do the people influence their God? The Legion seem to be losing a lot of their 'honourable' people, those objecting to the slaughter of Deniers and House Enes (Scabandari, Narad, and Narad's Sergeant Bursa(?)) and those who just want peace (Kagamandaras and the older Ankhadu). It could be that the Legion/Liossan that FL becomes a 'God' to are the angry, bitter ones... the ones obsessed with 'Justice' against the Highborn, the ones who have 'Judged' the Deniers and the Shake and the like... and becoming a God to them changes him.

Urusander was also very interested in Justice and Law... could be that, similar to MD, he gives the Liossan only very minimal guidance ("worship me in Justice") which they then go on to interpret, and turn them into the Tiste Liossan we've seen in the MBotF and NotME. Also, the Liossan we've seen in MBotF and NotME haven't had any guidance or contact with FL (we can assume) since MD turned away from the Andii... could be they've somewhat lost their way to become these judgemental, cold-blooded, arrogant group of people.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

3 thoughts/questions after having finished the book.

1. The nameless Azathanai. Who the fuck is he? I know he could just be someone we don't know yet, but since we've met every single other Azathanai in the main series I think we've seen him before. Especially since his part in this book was a seemingly pointless scene. My personal theory is that he is Edgewalker. The changing aspect wouldn't matter because Edgewalker would obviously change his aspect later on after taking the throne of shadow.

2. What the hell is in the Glimmer Plain that caused the Vitr to just invisibly stop and start piling up into the sky? Is there an easy explanation that I just missed? I was thinking maybe since its at the edge of Kurald Galain maybe MD is just kind of holding it at bay by force of will, but I don't remember any allusions to that during the book.

3. Grizzin Farl (who is awesome) said that 2 Azathanai went out to explore the Vitr. We assume one of these is T'riss, who somehow returned inside the belly of a dragon. Is it possible the second Azathanai that left was the dragon? Or at least A dragon? Think of it, apparently every race we have ever encountered in the books appears to have an Azathanai that claims them as their children/worshippers or at least under the protection. It isn't unreasonable to think that perhaps T'iam is the Azathani that traveled to (or maybe even created?) Starvald Demelain and become the dragon's God/Mother/Protector, right? It would explain her uniqueness among any of the dragons we have ever seen or heard of (multi-headed) and also the fact that apparently she can't be killed, at least by conventional means, and rises from the dead. Just like we've been lead to believe Azathanai/Elder Gods can assume any appearance they desire and can't be killed (unless you somehow annihilate every fiber of their being? Malice?).

Thoughts?

[Drusas Achamian]

The two Azathanai that ventured into the Vitr were the so-called 'Sister of Dreams' (probably T'riss) and Ardatha.

T'iam is mentioned in FoD in the ancient myths of the Tiste. I don't know if she is Azathanai. I think the Eleint are - together with the Azathanai - the
oldest race is Erikson's 'galaxy'. T'iam could just be a Eleint that ascended to godhood. Is not certain at all that the Azathanai created races (although we know that the Jaghut are at least able to created living beings, so why not the Azathanai?). I think that the K'Chain Che Malle are offspring of the Eleint, after an earlier invasion of the Eleint into 'Wu'. The function and position of the Matron within their race is similar to that of T'iam with the Eleint.

But then, is this world actually the same as 'Wu'? The Tiste Andii were always described as 'alien' to Wu. But is was also mentioned that the K'Chain were the only original race on Wu. What could have happend?

POSSIBLE TIMELINE:

1. K'rul created the possibility of creating Warrens.

2. Many of the Azathanai became (Elder) Gods, each with different races under their coordination.

3. The 'planet' of Kurald Galain/Forulkan/Dog Runners/Eres/Jaghut/Thel Akai/Jheck and the mysterious 'High King'
was split in different Elder Warrens. Their countries or cities - like Kurald Galain and Omthose Pellack - were 'put into' the Warrens; like
the Kallorian Empire on Jacuruku into the warren that was later known as the Imperial Warren.

4. So practically, the 'world' of Forge of Darkness ceased to exist. One world/planet became many (Elder Warrens), each with its
own kind of race/Eldar-bound magic.

5. From their Elder Warrens, the Jaghut migrated to 'Wu'. They found a planet devastated by the civil war between the K'Chain Che Malle
and the K'Chain Nahruk. The Nahruk had departed to the moon, most of the Che Malle were destroyed, with a few colonies left over, like
the one on the Lether-continent.

6. Later on, the Forulkan/Fokrul Assail migrated to Wu and settled on Assail and the Lether-continent. The Thel Akai and the Dog Runners/Imass, under their Jaghut Tyrants/Gods, followed. As did the Eres. The Elder Gods and Azathanai also 'meddled' on Wu.

7. The Tiste Civil War resulted in the creation of Kurald Liosan/Thyrlan and later, Kurald Emurhlan.

8. The invasion of the Eleint led to the fragmentation of Kural Emurhlan. During the same time, or a bit later, Mother Darkness turned 'away' from
the Tiste Andii. A Tiste Edur/Andii coalition under the lead of Scara Bandaris and Silchas Ruin fled to Wu and settled on the Lether-continent, but not before destroying the left-over Che Malle colony there.

9. Andarist led another colony, together with the offspring of Anomander and Envy to Wu and settled on Drift Avali.

10. Anomander led the last of the Andii out of the Kurald Galain-warren into Wu, probably stumbling upon a Che Malle colony, after which he 'claimed' the skykeep that was later known as Moon's Spawn.

11. The Eres were the ancestors of the Dog Runners/Imass. Humans originated from the Imass, but an earlier branch of humans originated directly from the Eres (pure speculation). Kallor was one of them. These earlier humans, under the lead of their High King (Kallor), also migrated to Wu and founded the Kallorian Empire on Jacuruku. ('I was around when Imass were but children' - Kallor). Not all 'early' humans were under the command of Kallor; some of them founded their own kingdoms on the same continent (Jacuruku). Ardatha controlled one of those kingdoms.

12. Ardatha paid tribute to the Kallorian Empire. Almost all of Jacuruku and all the 'early' humans were under the tyranny of Kallor. Wizards from the last independent kingdom called down Kaminsod. The Fall and the genocide of Kallor destroyed all - or most - of the 'early' humans. Kallor was cursed by the Elder Gods. The remnants of his empire became the Imperial Warren.

13. The Imass rebelled against their Jaghut Gods. With the help of other Jaghut (like Gothos), the Imass overthrew the Jaghut Tyrants and founded the Imass First Empire. Their empire flourished, but they forswore to destroy all Jaghut (tyrants). The Gathering/Ritual happened, after which most of the Imass became undead T'lan Imass.

14. Some of the Imass came to late to partake in the Ritual/First Gathering. Some of them mixed with the Toblakai and became the Barghast (of which the Moranth are an offshoot) The descendants of another group of left-over Imass 'evolutionized' into humans.

15. The human descendants of the Imass founded the Human First Empire on the Seven Cities-continent. They went over sea and founded colonies on the Lether-continent and Genebackis. Dessembelackis became their greatest emperor. After the 'Soletaken Crisis', the Human First Empire was destroyed by the T'lann Imass.

16. The First Empire colony on the Lether-continent transformed into the independent kingdom Lether. The human colonists on Genebackis became the victims of a Jaghut, masquerading as a human Tyrant-King.

This post has been edited by Drusas Achamian: 03 September 2012 - 10:03 AM

[Abyss]

Drusas Achamian, on 03 September 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

The two Azathanai that ventured into the Vitr were the so-called 'Sister of Dreams' (probably T'riss) and Ardatha.

Agreed, unless T'riss had another Az'i with her who didn't make it.

Quote

T'iam is mentioned in FoD in the ancient myths of the Tiste. I don't know if she is Azathanai. I think the Eleint are - together with the Azathanai - the
oldest race is Erikson's 'galaxy'. T'iam could just be a Eleint that ascended to godhood. Is not certain at all that the Azathanai created races (although we know that the Jaghut are at least able to created living beings, so why not the Azathanai?). I think that the K'Chain Che Malle are offspring of the Eleint, after an earlier invasion of the Eleint into 'Wu'. The function and position of the Matron within their race is similar to that of T'iam with the Eleint.

Given the theory that the Az'i created ALL the races, it's not unthinkable that Tiam is an Az herself who created the Elient.

It's also possible that she created them from herself as a form of d'ivers, and that every time we've been told someone has 'drank the blood of Tiam', it was actually a reference to drinking the blood of any dragon at all.

Quote

But then, is this world actually the same as 'Wu'? The Tiste Andii were always described as 'alien' to Wu. But is was also mentioned that the K'Chain were the only original race on Wu. What could have happend?

Pure speculation but i'm thinking Malazanland is a whole other world, and when the Tiste world is fragmented into warrens, some races such as the dog-runners, FA, Jaghut and Jheck relocate. By the time that happens the KC are either already there or arrive shortly after. The Tiste invasions from their warrens come later.

DoD/TCG suggested that the KC and Jaghut lived in harmony for a while, likely before the Matrons took over the KC and the subsequent KN revolt.

That said, if we believe Kalor, the KC civilization has to have existed long enough for a first round of the KN to exist and die out before the Matrons revive them.

My head hurts.

[Sinisdar Toste]

interesting idea about the eres and earlier offshoots of them evolving into humans before the imass descendants. we've seen the eres around at the same time as K'chain, in osserc's little memory warren in HoC. also, the eres are mentioned in FoD as departing to the coastlands south of KG and OP iirc. where did they go? could crossing the sea (mael) have brought them to a new 'realm?' during this time before the creation of warrens? then after, if the posited 'splitting' of the mortal realm into aspects, or elder warrens, happened, they could have been left free from most of the elder races dividing of existence. other than the k'chain, who seem to have come from outside the system entirely, if not from dragons. interesting though that sag'churok claims the k'chain are not really the descendants of dragons, and gunth mach shared their entire racial memory with him. i think that would include knowing whether or not your kind was spawned by dragons, but who knows how long this memory even is. how war back in their history did they evolve it? Gah, my head hurts too.

[Traveller]

Just finished reading, so now I can read this without fear of spoilers.

I thoroughly enjoyed this, beginning to end. I've been reading a lot of other stuff lately, and it was so good to return to a new SE book - especially one with so many answers! Ok, I know there are now a ton of new questions, but I found so much foreshadowing of scenes in the main series here, which just kept coming.

The question about the connections between the realms/warrens/worlds is a tricky one - but I thought there were hints of future scenes in the landscape of FOD, at least when Draconus and Arathan were travelling, the towers containing Azathanai just made me think of the one under the sea where Brys Beddict meets Sechul Lath and Kilmandaros in... RG? Kind of made me think that Kharkanas and the immediate area around it may become trapped in time as a Warren, while the rest of the landscape of Kurald Galain gets ruined or flooded somehow. (Also, Osserc's watch tower in MT is on an island in an ocean; I know that was during the invasion of the skykeeps, but maybe there's a link.

I don't think the warrens are different worlds; the books are all set in the same world, but certain places like Kurald Galain and the continent Kallor trashed are preserved within certain warrens. So although they may be gone or changed in the physical world, they are still accessable through the right warren. Which, we see in many cases, hold certain areas as memories, with boundaries to them - maybe the limits of the memory of the one who made them? The landscapes seem too similar to be different worlds, and seem to have links that are only separated by time. (I also liked the appearance of the Jaghut that Karsa later meets in the Jaghut Odhan - I think he's become partly tree by then though!)

I loved the way the Hounds were hinted at - when the hostages were assigned to Kagamanda, I immediately thought of that great bit in DoD when Tulas appears, and the Hounds all run towards him like he was their master. And how at the time, that was such a wtf moment, whereas now we find out why.

Apart from a few weird bits that didn't seem to go anywhere (scholar falling down the stairs? What?) and some similar names to confuse things, I really liked it, and now have a pressing need to look up stuff in the main series. Oh, and what happened to Wreneck? I know Orfantal thinks him dead at the end, but wasn't he rescued?

This post has been edited by Traveller: 07 September 2012 - 11:34 PM

[Abyss]

Traveller, on 07 September 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

... and what happened to Wreneck? I know Orfantal thinks him dead at the end, but wasn't he rescued?

He saved the maid and escaped the burning keep.
Also he knows the names of three of the legionnaires who tried to kill him and murdered Sandy's mom. Expect this to be important eventually.

[Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast]

Traveller, on 07 September 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

I loved the way the Hounds were hinted at - when the hostages were assigned to Kagamanda, I immediately thought of that great bit in DoD when Tulas appears, and the Hounds all run towards him like he was their master. And how at the time, that was such a wtf moment, whereas now we find out why.

Shit, now that you mention it...!

I just want to say that FoD was an awesome read and that when I'm done with the other books that are stacking up in my cupboard, it's definitely made me want to start a MBotF reread.

Also, to whoever said something about not seeing a 'Mother Light' character, on the previous page, Syntara herself said that she wanted to try to set up Urusander as a 'Father Light' as a balance to Mother Dark. 'Mother Light' never really came into it at all.

EDIT: ...just as there isn't a Father Dark, either.

This post has been edited by Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast: 08 September 2012 - 06:08 PM

[Traveller]

I think what struck me most while reading this was just how far the Tiste have fallen by the malazan imperial age. Especially the Edur - they basically revert to a tribal society, with a history of betrayal to the Andii. Its surprising to see how close they were related to begin with, considering how they treat each other over the ages.

[Crow Clan Baby]

Regarding the Tiste, all of this makes it even more explicit that they had originally been Elf-analogues in the original RPG. All the necessary bits had always been there - light/dark/shadow, long life, etc - but the fact that they were originally all a single species just really rams it home. I guess that makes the K trilogy be the Silmarillion of the Malazan world - a purely Elf-centered story based on their ancient history, division and downfall (and with added swearing ).

[Aooga]

Destiny, on 01 September 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

I too found it interesting to see Scabandari completely turned around. I actually really like him now. So I'm very curious to see how he goes from this likable honorable guy to someone who stabs his BFF in the back.

My theory is based on a small titbit mentioned in one of the MBF books; DoD I think it was: that basically elient cannot long stand other elient company and that eventually the eleint blood of the soletaken will cause them to turn on each other. So even though Scabi and Silchas are best friends now and may continue to be for quite a while; at some point after they become soletaken eleint that Scabi goes dark side possibly before Silchas and decides on the pre-emptive strike. Just another tragic thread in this sad tapestry being woven by SE

This post has been edited by Aooga: 12 September 2012 - 12:46 AM

[Abyss]

Traveller, on 08 September 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

I think what struck me most while reading this was just how far the Tiste have fallen by the malazan imperial age. Especially the Edur - they basically revert to a tribal society, with a history of betrayal to the Andii. Its surprising to see how close they were related to begin with, considering how they treat each other over the ages.

The Letherii Edur are down to tribes but fairly civil tribes even so.
The Liosan are isolationist fanatics but they seem to haev retained their civilization.

The Andii are more complex... what we see of their post KG society is mostly revealed in the Moon's Spawn segments of OST and that suggests they stayed civilized but angsty. There were also the Bluerose Andii in RG but we don't see enough of their society to really guess much, altho the trick they pulled on the Letherii with saddles suggsted they hadn't fallen too far.

Aooga, on 12 September 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

Destiny, on 01 September 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

I too found it interesting to see Scabandari completely turned around. I actually really like him now. So I'm very curious to see how he goes from this likable honorable guy to someone who stabs his BFF in the back.

My theory is based on a small titbit mentioned in one of the MBF books; DoD I think it was: that basically elient cannot long stand other elient company and that eventually the eleint blood of the soletaken will cause them to turn on each other. So even though Scabi and Silchas are best friends now and may continue to be for quite a while; at some point after they become soletaken eleint that Scabi goes dark side possibly before Silchas and decides on the pre-emptive strike. Just another tragic thread in this sad tapestry being woven by SE

I agree with this, but it doesn't quite explain Scabby's decision to wipe out Silchas' Andii, so i suspect there's more to it we're yet to see.

[Aooga]

Abyss, on 12 September 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Aooga, on 12 September 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

Destiny, on 01 September 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

I too found it interesting to see Scabandari completely turned around. I actually really like him now. So I'm very curious to see how he goes from this likable honorable guy to someone who stabs his BFF in the back.

My theory is based on a small titbit mentioned in one of the MBF books; DoD I think it was: that basically elient cannot long stand other elient company and that eventually the eleint blood of the soletaken will cause them to turn on each other. So even though Scabi and Silchas are best friends now and may continue to be for quite a while; at some point after they become soletaken eleint that Scabi goes dark side possibly before Silchas and decides on the pre-emptive strike. Just another tragic thread in this sad tapestry being woven by SE

I agree with this, but it doesn't quite explain Scabby's decision to wipe out Silchas' Andii, so i suspect there's more to it we're yet to see.

Well could be as simple as in for a penny, in for a pound, which starts by eliminating all witnesses first. Stage 2 was eliminating the rest of the Andii and so secure this new world for the Edur. He presumed Anomander had disappeared to someplace else and so thought he could get away with it. I honestly don't think there's more to it but let's see. Maybe the friendship did sour earlier on.

[Abyss]

Aooga, on 12 September 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

...Maybe the friendship did sour earlier on.

Scabby's last comment about waiting for Silch to come take revenge did suggest something bad was going to happen next.