[Gothos]

pardon me asking, but could someone make a scan of the map(s)?

[Abyss]

Almost done... maybe 50 pages to go...

Kada musing about dead children and making a god of that child with his art.... oh, nice touch SE.

So the Shake Mom and Dad are MD's siblings, hence why Twilight and Yedan in the MBF keep being ref'd as having royal blood, slave race thing aside. Neat.

And since they never took on an aspect, the Shake are actually closer to 'pure' tiste than any of the later races.

I keep thinking Deniers are human for no reason at all.

The whole 'hey lets kill the Deniers' think is pretty silly actually.

Ooooo... Redder Wedding. Ouch.

Andarist... Anomander... swords... ummm.... what?

Haut is the closest thing to comic relief in this book.

Silchas and Scabby chucking over assigning the Jheleckan kids to Kaga... oh, that IS funny!

Ninja Bordersword girl rawked. Too bad she also screwed everything up.

The Hust Legion.... OH FUCK.

Gothos is the Lord of Hate who kickstarted the end of Jaghut civ!

Which PRECEDED the War on Death????

Now THAT'S a cavalry charge!

Wow Errant was a dickhead even way back then. And Sech is a complete wuss.

[Abyss]

Sinisdar Toste, on 24 August 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

i think the t'riss stuff was super well done. here we all were, thinking that the andii, edur, and liosan have always been apart, and then we find out it was basically FORCED on them. really great scene there in the throne room. i think i prefer that the divisions were first made in such a fumbling, uncertain manner. what's really funny is that this priestess, Syntara, the first Liossan, has absolutely NO place in Tiste history or mythology. she might be known under another name, but i think it more likely she gets throat-cut and buried in the back garden at some point. what a glorious creation myth for the liossan

Totally. For all her inner monologue about being the answer and balance to MD, she's gone and FL is the focus.

Am also wondering whether in the end Hunn will end up in the FL role instead of Urusander.

[Abyss]

JUST FINISHED IT!

To be clear we are spoilers ON and UNBLOCKED for ALL MALAZAN BOOKS ever...
SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
MALAZAN SPOILERS
KHARKANAS SPOILERS
BREAKFAST LUNCH AND DINNER SPOILERS
SPOILERS SPOILERS OF LIGHT
SPOILERS OF DARKNESS
BUT FUCK THOSE SPOILERS OF SHADOW WHO INVITED THOSE PRICKS ANYWAYS?
AND ALSO SPOILERS


I'm a little divided in my reaction to FoD and i'll probably waiver on the like/love scale for a while before i settle anywhere in particular.

As a starting point, this was pure Malazan goodness from SE on certain levels. Even as part 1 of 3, the additions to the backstory of the EGs/Tiste/Warrens/soletaken/Elient/Jheck/Darkness/Light/Shadow/Imass/FA/HoS and everything else were great.

I had moments of pure awe in reading this book, where the thinkymeatz made the connection to a character or phrase of concept in the MBF or Malaz books, and it was a treat every time.

The timeline issues, the character 'changes, none of that bothered me. SE has told us from the very start that stories change with the teller and time. The fact that what we see in the KT doesn't support what we saw in the MBF is a none-issue. I expect SE will tie it all up eventually and I am fervently looking forward to seeing how he does it. trust in SE. SE is good. SE is great. SE is an anthorpologist and knows wtf he's doing.

So i don't care whose daughter's cousin's sister is the wrong hair color. MBF and KT are millenia apart in time and we learned in MBF more than once that even the most powerful immortals don't remember everything that happened to them, sometimes by choice.

What i care about is the story, and this was a great story, albeit in the sense that it was primarily setup for what was to come.

In some respects, the set-up elements are what hindered the story too. The cast was IMMENSE, and mostly new characters. halfway through the book we were still getting new pov's, while some who were intro'd early on had more or less dissappeared. Others who might have been interesting didn't receive as much development as they needed to make the eventual pay-off matter. Cryl is the character that stands out for this in my mind. He's a one-note unrequited love archetype and when he rushes to die defending his lost love it's not surprising. Similarly, we never see enough of Enesdia and Andarist to really appreciate the impact of her death. their relationship, or lack thereof, gets some scene-time, but i would have liked more. We get just enough to understand arranged marriage, unrequited love, Adarist is in, Enesdia is on the fence, ok, then everything goes to crap because of the civil war. This was a HUGE crux of the story.... i felt it didn't get quite enough and i could have cheerfully done without Waft and his beaten face to have more of it.

The other thing that bothered me was the level of introspective philosophizing in this book. In DG there is a lovely scene where Kalam finds a bunch of Whirlwind fanatics doing bad things and kills them to rescue some people. It's lovely and straightforward and tells us a lot about Kalam's character. FoD lacks such straightforward scenes. Virtually every scene included some deep prononciation on life, religion, society, maturity, families, honour, soldiers etc etc etc and by about halfway i was really waiting for someone to pull out a sword and stab someone else. This also diluted some fairly important things. One of the most important revelations in the book, the fact that the Azathanai created all the other races - maybe - comes from the internal monlogue of a character - Karris iirc, the scholar visiting the Bordersword village when the Legion attacks - we only see for that one seen when she should be thinking 'Holy fuck we're being attacked' and instead she internally considered the history of the world and then falls down the steps and dies. If the revelation was meant to be important than it was somewhat lost and if it wasn't important then why include it and why include it thus? I have no doubt that SE had a reason, but i missed that one.

This should not bother me. SE makes it clear in the prologue that Blind Gallan is the narrator. We know from the MBF, without ever meeting him, that he's longwinded and given to philosophizing and utterly obsessed with the symbolism of every action. Hence, Waft, thug that he is, becomes a philosopher, and Orfantal, who is like eight, has deep routed musings on the role of betrayal in the herois archetype. It's all well written and brilliant but i would have appreciated it more if there hadn't been quite so MUCH of it.

As a firm fan of the MBF as ICE's Malaz books as well, FoD was a treat for all the blatant and sublte easter eggs and shoutbacks. There are lines that are drawn directly from Fisher poems and other bits - "the sea does not dream of you" and "there will be peace" notably - and it was a kick every single time. The early incanrations of charcters were great to see and it was a kick to see hints of who they will eventually become. All ofthat worked in spades.

I'm way to invested to be able to assess how a new reader without the background would have appreciated this book. It will be interesting to hear from one when the opportunity arises.

Now then...

BEST HOLY FUCK - Malice showing up after the doctor takes out Envy and Spite. I loved every scene with these three. They were awesome on multiple levels.

BEST MOMENT OF ASSKICKERY - The Dracons Houseblades heavy cavalry charge against the Borderswords. Wrenching on multiple levels but SUCH a great sequence, especially working in the way this was the very first time anyone on this world faced heavy cav, or heavy cav faced anyone. The wedge, the obvious response to it, and the way Ivis turned that against the Borderswords, was just perfect.

BEST NEW CHARACTER - I'm kind of surprising myself by writing this, but Arathan won me over. I can't quite decide why or when... he's uncertain and unsteady and mostly a victim for the first half of the book but his slow shift to confidence and growing up just worked very very nicely. By the time Kila and then finally draconus sing his praises at the end, i agreed.

BEST OTHER NEW CHARACTER - Haut, for being the only comic relief in the book as well as being generally interesting. i really enjoyed how he played off Korya and then later Gothos. Hourable mention to Rancet (and Ribs), who seemed to be one thing and turned out to be something else, and awesome, instead.

AWARD FOR MOST IRONIC AND/OR SUBTLE CHARACTER EVER - Grizzin Farl. The protector who is always to late to protect anything. Brilliant addition to the pantheon.

BEST MYSTERY - Even the Azathanai don't understand the Azath Houses that keep popping up.

BEST TWIST - We knew Draconus was an EG going back to the MBF, so the fact that his Tiste guise was fake wasn't a surprise. What was a surprise was the fact that he himself probably created the Tiste in the first place, and then fell i love with one and acted to aspect them to Night, his own aspect. in essence it seems Draconus created the Tiste race to provide his own happiness and failed utterly. Even if i've got the details wrong, the possibilities of this are staggeringly tragic.

BEST SELF-DEPRECIATION - Rake and the Shake Assassin both thinking the other was better/faster/more dangerous. Nicely subverted when Rake throws him against a wall anyways, knowing that he could have been knifed and betting that won't happen, tho it almost does.

BEST FANTASY TROPE BROUGHT TO THE NEXT LEVEL - All things Hust, especially the armour at the end and how utterly wrong that went.

BEST SIR NOT APPEARING IN THIS MOVIE - I loved the way the dragons are barely in the story but woven through it even so. When they appear at the end it's just great.

BEST HEE HEE I SEE WHAT U DID THERE - Silchas and Scabby being all chummy and chuckling at how they're going to set Kaga up to deal with the Jheleckan kids. Also gets the award for BESTEST FORESHADOWING.

BEST CONVERSATION - The Borderblades and the Jheleck at the fire, notably "Can we use her?" "No." "Well, fine if you're not going to share....", mostly for the fact that pregnant and depressed Feren probably could have taken them all.

WORSE DEATH - Enesdia. Grim grim grim.

BEST DEATH - The entire Hust Legion, not because it was glorious but rather for all the exact opposite reasons.

MOST IRONIC DEATH - Risp, for, after trying to be all badass and heroically killing some kids and a pregnant woman, going out at the hands of a 15-yr old girl (albeit a ninja Bordersword 15-yr-old girl).

OTHER MOST IRONIC DEATH - Syntara for the reasons S'Toste mentioned upthread.

BEST MOMENT OF IRREVERENCE - Rint. Hmmm, there's a god up that tree and she just killed a friend of mine. I think i'll set that tree on fire.

BEST MOMENT OF EPIC FANTASY - Arathan ignores naked Korya and looks out the window at the assembled forces for Hood's War on Death.

BEST OTHER MOMENT OF EPIC FANTASY - Nine dragons.

BEST SUBTLE MOMENT OF EPIC FANTASY - Wait... ancient Tiste heroes killed Tiam whaaaaattttt???

BEST VILLAIN - In a book mostly lacking outright 'bad guys', Errastas was at his evil best even in just three short scenes. I liked his re-intro, covered in Hood's wife's blood.

BEST OTHER FORESHADOWING - Kadaspala's agony and reaction to the death Denier child... "I shall make a god of this.".... yes, yes you will. You just have to die and spend a few hundred thousand years in Dragnipur first.

BEST MOMENT OF AWE - i wavered between T'riss at the citadel and Rake and brood meeting for the first time. In the end i have to go with the latter.

WORSE MOMENT THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN EPIC BUT WASN'T -
Andarist: Ahhhhhh, Enesdia omg aaaaahhhhhh this is awful!!!!
Rake: This is awful. I'm going to name my shiny new sword 'Vengeance' and go kill people for this!
Andarist: No. You have to call it 'Grief'.
Rake: That's a lame name.
Andarist: Do it or i won't talk to you ever again.
Rake: That's a shame. See ya.
Silchas: Um wtf just happened????


So that's where i'm at having Just Finished It. Overall a good addition to the Malazan world, an entertaining read and i can't wait to see what hapens in bk 2. Shortcomings aside (and i haven't really formed a final opinion on how short they may be), this was a satsfying read with some really nice moments.

- Abyss, looking fwd to discussing it here and elsethread.

[Sinisdar Toste]

tbh, i thought that the kadaspala/enesdia relationship was meant to be the more heart-rending, rather than the andarist/enesdia one. andarist seems to have some delusions about enesdia, and the kind of woman she is. kadaspala just worships her, and though it pretty creept, him being the one to find it, and the way he reacts, is what made it great for me.

[HoosierDaddy]

Abyss, on 27 August 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

<snipperton snippety snip>

Now then...

BEST HOLY FUCK - Malice showing up after the doctor takes out Envy and Spite. I loved every scene with these three. They were awesome on multiple levels.

Those three... just wow. Spite and Envy are straight screwed up.

Quote

BEST MOMENT OF ASSKICKERY - The Dracons Houseblades heavy cavalry charge against the Borderswords. Wrenching on multiple levels but SUCH a great sequence, especially working in the way this was the very first time anyone on this world faced heavy cav, or heavy cav faced anyone. The wedge, the obvious response to it, and the way Ivis turned that against the Borderswords, was just perfect.

Rint setting Olar Ethil on fire. The bitch.

Quote

BEST NEW CHARACTER - I'm kind of surprising myself by writing this, but Arathan won me over. I can't quite decide why or when... he's uncertain and unsteady and mostly a victim for the first half of the book but his slow shift to confidence and growing up just worked very very nicely. By the time Kila and then finally draconus sing his praises at the end, i agreed.

Surprisingly, Huun Raal out of left field. Set-up as an incompetent drunk the entire time, ends up destroying the entire Hust Legion with some booze and I'm still not sure how. Just poison? It seemed to me it had to do with the blades and armor though.

Quote

BEST OTHER NEW CHARACTER - Haut, for being the only comic relief in the book as well as being generally interesting. i really enjoyed how he played off Korya and then later Gothos. Hourable mention to Rancet (and Ribs), who seemed to be one thing and turned out to be something else, and awesome, instead.

Agreed.

Quote

AWARD FOR MOST IRONIC AND/OR SUBTLE CHARACTER EVER - Grizzin Farl. The protector who is always to late to protect anything. Brilliant addition to the pantheon.

Precursor to the God of Tragedy? Makes appearances with Draconus' crew, at Andarist's wedding, and after the Civil War has begun and the Liosan have been born.
BEST MYSTERY - Even the Azathanai don't understand the Azath Houses that keep popping up.

Quote

BEST TWIST - We knew Draconus was an EG going back to the MBF, so the fact that his Tiste guise was fake wasn't a surprise. What was a surprise was the fact that he himself probably created the Tiste in the first place, and then fell i love with one and acted to aspect them to Night, his own aspect. in essence it seems Draconus created the Tiste race to provide his own happiness and failed utterly. Even if i've got the details wrong, the possibilities of this are staggeringly tragic.

The whole story is like a reverse Red Wedding. We know most of these people are going to die, it's just waiting to find out how.

......

Quote

WORSE DEATH - Enesdia. Grim grim grim.

That or Raskan's.

Quote

OTHER MOST IRONIC DEATH - Syntara for the reasons S'Toste mentioned upthread.

She's dead? Was she just a Liosan bomb and not whoever worships Ursander because Liosan?

Quote

BEST MOMENT OF IRREVERENCE - Rint (fixed). Hmmm, there's a god up that tree and she just killed a friend of mine. I think i'll set that tree on fire.

....

Quote

BEST VILLAIN - In a book mostly lacking outright 'bad guys', Errastas was at his evil best even in just three short scenes. I liked his re-intro, covered in Hood's wife's blood.

I don't like him. I also really dislike Huun Raal and Olar Ethil.

Quote

BEST OTHER FORESHADOWING - Kadaspala's agony and reaction to the death Denier child... "I shall make a god of this.".... yes, yes you will. You just have to die and spend a few hundred thousand years in Dragnipur first.

Just the name, "The Lord of Hate." Dude, I knew that was Gothos straight away. Who else could it be?

Quote

BEST MOMENT OF AWE - i wavered between T'riss at the citadel and Rake and brood meeting for the first time. In the end i have to go with the latter.

I liked the rebirth of Kurald Galain withe the creation of its gate and the first opening of the Gate of Starvald Demelain.


Someone help me figure out what's the deal with the Hust stuff?

[Sinisdar Toste]

i seriously don't think this is the end of the hust legion. as per sandalath's (admittedly shaky) memories of the wars she's seen, the hust legion eventually has to march against a plague of dragons coming out of SD. something like "hust legion, we never saw you coming. but the dragons stopped."

i'm starting a reread now, but when i first read that scene, i wasn't convinced that the legion was being killed. i had no idea what was happening, and it ended before i could figure it out. the arrival of the armor completely changed the situation i think. especially once galar baras unsheathed his sword.

[HoosierDaddy]

Sinisdar Toste, on 28 August 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

i seriously don't think this is the end of the hust legion. as per sandalath's (admittedly shaky) memories of the wars she's seen, the hust legion eventually has to march against a plague of dragons coming out of SD. something like "hust legion, we never saw you coming. but the dragons stopped."

i'm starting a reread now, but when i first read that scene, i wasn't convinced that the legion was being killed. i had no idea what was happening, and it ended before i could figure it out. the arrival of the armor completely changed the situation i think. especially once galar baras unsheathed his sword.

It's obvious that they reform at the least because Anomander did order them into Starvald Demelain later on. I'm curious as to what happened with these Hust.

[Abyss]

My take on it was that the poison took out most of the legion and when the watch guard ran in and drew his sword the collective swords' noises drove the rest of them mad.
The hints are the soldier who is all but babbling, and Toras trying to kill herself and then eating the poison wine soaked dirt.

When Galas shows up and draws his Hust sword to stop Toras from killing herself, the swords all chorus again, with the armour and Galas is hit by the effect as well. Eactly what happens to him i suppose is tbd in bk 2.

[RSM616]

Sinisdar Toste, on 28 August 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

i seriously don't think this is the end of the hust legion. as per sandalath's (admittedly shaky) memories of the wars she's seen, the hust legion eventually has to march against a plague of dragons coming out of SD. something like "hust legion, we never saw you coming. but the dragons stopped."

i'm starting a reread now, but when i first read that scene, i wasn't convinced that the legion was being killed. i had no idea what was happening, and it ended before i could figure it out. the arrival of the armor completely changed the situation i think. especially once galar baras unsheathed his sword.

The hust legion as they are in this book probably have been wiped out because it mentions in one of the other books in a flashback that the hust legion who marches into starvald demalain were recruited from the prisons and the homless etc, (I cant remember the exact quote) but this to me sounds like a group hastily put together after the original where wiped out

[Aptorian]

Seeing as we are told that the aspect/nature/mojo of the Hust weapons had changed and infused the wielders of Hust weapons, I suspect that the revealing of the hust armor and the cacophony it created, may have saved many if not all of the legion. Why else have that scene at all? I think it probably had some kind of healing effect that expunged their sickness. Just like it probably worked to keep them alive for longer than Hunn Rhall expected.

EDIT: If in fact they all, or most of them, died, then I think it was a poorly written scene because it doesn't leave you with the impact the certainty of the legions death would bring. As of the ending you just know they are in a bad place. I certainly did not get the impression they were anywhere near dead and gone when I finished the book. I saw the uncovering of the armor as a hail marry. Telling us that something new was coming. Namely a Hust Legion that was seriously pissed with Urusander and co.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 28 August 2012 - 07:42 PM

[kcf]

oohhh...that's not the sense I was left with, but I like you're interpretation better.

[Abyss]

The commander tries to kill herself with poison wine.
How much clearer does it need to be?

[Aptorian]

The commander is a crazy woman who hates her life and fucks anything that moves to punish herself and her husband. Nothing she does needs to make sense.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i do remember that part about the hust legion being recruited from the cells and what not, but what is the hust legions provenance? just the first borderswords on the scene in the forulkan invasion. they could have been ex-prisoners, who chose military duty over prison.

like apt says, there has to be more to that scene. i wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them died, including toras redone, and galar baras became commander of the legion. i'd be thrilled actually.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 29 August 2012 - 04:33 AM

[Abyss]

Aptorius, on 29 August 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

The commander is a crazy woman who hates her life and fucks anything that moves to punish herself and her husband. Nothing she does needs to make sense.

Nope. Actually in that scene where her and Toras get drunk and plan to sheboing it makes perfect sense.

And it's clear from the scene with her and Hunn that she didn't trust him and was suspicious, but in the wrong way, hence her complete meltdown and subsequent suicide attempt whether or not prompted by screaming swords.

Sinisdar Toste, on 29 August 2012 - 04:31 AM, said:

i do remember that part about the hust legion being recruited from the cells and what not, but what is the hust legions provenance? just the first borderswords on the scene in the forulkan invasion. they could have been ex-prisoners, who chose military duty over prison.

Wasn't that the Wardens?

Quote

like apt says, there has to be more to that scene. i wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them died, including toras redone, and galar baras became commander of the legion. i'd be thrilled actually.

I'm thinking him taking on the command and leading them into whatever we were told about in DoD/TCG is likely.

That said, Calat Hustain is still over with the Wardens and could in theory have a claim on the command, assuming he survived the dragons emerging.



As it stands now, the Hust Legion is effectively wiped out, the Borderswords are reduced to maybe a broken company of skirmishers, and the Wardens are claiming neutrality or running off to investigate the Vitr.
Draconus has 800 heavy horse that no one really trusts. Mommy D's Houseblades are supposed to be less than that. Then there is whatever Houseblade forces the Houses still loyal to MD may have, but the implication was these tended to be small and the Legion was winnowing them further.

On the other side a Legion force of about 7000.

Things are looking bad for the 'good guys'. Am very curious to see how this plays out because it seems they are divided and under-manned. Scabby and Urusander's actions may suggest some division amongst the Legion as well.

And especially because we know that ultimately Mommy D WILL get her funk on with someone from the Light.

[duhr]

When did Syntara die?

[Serenity]

Abyss, on 27 August 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

In some respects, the set-up elements are what hindered the story too. The cast was IMMENSE, and mostly new characters. halfway through the book we were still getting new pov's, while some who were intro'd early on had more or less dissappeared. Others who might have been interesting didn't receive as much development as they needed to make the eventual pay-off matter.

[...]

The other thing that bothered me was the level of introspective philosophizing in this book. In DG there is a lovely scene where Kalam finds a bunch of Whirlwind fanatics doing bad things and kills them to rescue some people. It's lovely and straightforward and tells us a lot about Kalam's character. FoD lacks such straightforward scenes. Virtually every scene included some deep prononciation on life, religion, society, maturity, families, honour, soldiers etc etc etc and by about halfway i was really waiting for someone to pull out a sword and stab someone else. This also diluted some fairly important things.

I think those two observations sum up - far better than I could have - exactly my feelings about the book. There were some truly awesome parts throughout the novel, but I found it got bogged down with new characters who didn't hold my interest, and all that philosophising - far, far too much of it, imo. Could've done with some serious editing in parts, I thought.

[Abyss]

duhr, on 31 August 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

When did Syntara die?

We don't know, but consider the utter absence of a reference to a 'Mother Light' figure in the MBF and ME books.
Sure the Liosan as we know them may have some super secter uber shrine to some version of Syntara that we've never heard about 'on screen', but there's a delightful irony in the interpretation that she's been forgotten.

[blackzoid]

A character I'm very interested in reading about now is Scarbandari. Its odd how he comes across as one of the most likeable characters in the book.
I actually now really like him. I wonder if there will be any corresponding Syntara/Mother Dark for Shadow. Guess I'll have to wait till the 3rd book.