[Abyss]

A theme in the malazan books that's being addressed in perhaps more detail in the KT is the relationship between gods and worshippers. Who MD really is is immaterial to how her worshippers see her, or want to see her, and that has an effect on who and what she becomes. The same could be said for the leader of the 'Light' faction.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i can see Mother Dark falling into the same category as laseen - highly divisive among readers. what we've seen of her so far hasn't been too impressive, i'll agree, and i can definitely echo Rakes frustration with her refusal to give him any direction. i think the problem is with the nature of darkness itself, which is something that MD is still coming to terms with herself.

[Wol]

Sinisdar Toste, on 15 November 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

i can see Mother Dark falling into the same category as laseen - highly divisive among readers. what we've seen of her so far hasn't been too impressive, i'll agree, and i can definitely echo Rakes frustration with her refusal to give him any direction. i think the problem is with the nature of darkness itself, which is something that MD is still coming to terms with herself.

Basically this. I figured she's struggling to deal with no longer being what she was ( a Tiste) and even without the taking a consort blah, blah, blah, the Tiste are already in a pretty bad situation with the fact that the way they have been living is going, or is changing with the fact that they can't hunt, lack of trees ect and settling the veterans of the wars (Which draws some parallels with the Roman civil wars). In some ways I see it like the movement from pre-industrial to post industrial society, the cracks are already there and widening and on top of this you're dealing with the fact that you're struggling to understand your people and they you.


As far as Kallor/ The high King goes it could be possible I suppose that he reincarnates or something similar, the undying concept of the Tyrant ruler as it were, and thus while not really human, at the time he's cursed he's in a human form and thus stuck like that. How that relates to the ascendancy issue I'm not sure but maybe he wanted something beyond what he had.

Ruin was always more draconian than Anomander, although I always wondered if the idea wasn't to have Ruin put himself out of the game so that when Rake did his Martyr thing one of them was there to protect/ be there for the Andii. Bloodeye possibly wants a way out at that point and takes death to hide Anomander and Ruin's end game? Unlikely I know but possible given their friendship.

This post has been edited by Wol: 17 November 2012 - 09:12 AM

[Abyss]

Wol, on 17 November 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

...As far as Kallor/ The high King goes it could be possible I suppose that he reincarnates or something similar, the undying concept of the Tyrant ruler as it were, and thus while not really human, at the time he's cursed he's in a human form and thus stuck like that. How that relates to the ascendancy issue I'm not sure but maybe he wanted something beyond what he had.

Kallor's aspect seems to be ambition.

A big question mark is exactly who his people are as of FoD. It's entirely possible he's made himself an empire of Tiste or Dogrunners or some other race, since he would only have to become human aspected at some point before the MoI prologue.

Quote

Ruin was always more draconian than Anomander, although I always wondered if the idea wasn't to have Ruin put himself out of the game so that when Rake did his Martyr thing one of them was there to protect/ be there for the Andii. Bloodeye possibly wants a way out at that point and takes death to hide Anomander and Ruin's end game? Unlikely I know but possible given their friendship.

The suggestion is made in MT that Ruin allowed Scabby to backstab him, knowing he'd end up in the Azath and knowing that eventually he'd be freed.

It fits with the draconic patience angle, but I scratch my head at the notion that he was certain that he would be freed eventually.

That said, he may have wanted to avoid the conflict with the EGs that led to Kila punching Scabby's head.

[worry]

Everyone will be freed eventually, since Azath die. Plus in his draconic arrogance -- and his ability to project himself to the world and affect things that way anyway -- he's a pretty confident dude.

[Abyss]

worrywort, on 20 November 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

Everyone will be freed eventually, since Azath die. Plus in his draconic arrogance -- and his ability to project himself to the world and affect things that way anyway -- he's a pretty confident dude.

A live questions is whether at that time Silchas, or anyone else, would have known Azath COULD die, either of age or by fists.
We saw Liossercal beat one up in RCG, which seems to predate the MT prologue. If Lio is in fact Ossi, that would be basis for him to know they could be killed.
That said, the Leth Azath house seems to be the first one on the Malazan world, so if he knew they could die, it was from something learned back in KG.

The projection thing was a gift from Mommy D, but how could he have known she would give him that? I suspect he was just planning on sitting around as Silanah was doing at Black Coral in TtH.

[Ulrik]

Wow, I just caught few things during reread of TCG. Haut is one of 14 undead Jaghut. And Ri...Rikl, Rist, Rise...damn you SE, no more same names! Well, TA on "R" has one POV in one chapters about Shake defense. Aaaand... Interesting that reborn OE is beautiful young woman and not her Azathian Vestonic Venus form.

[Sindriss]

Good catch with that jaghut army ulrik! Repped accordingly

I think silchas went to the backstabbery and azath as an easy way to avoid being a target by killa. And as he nicknamed scara as bloodeye, he practically knew it was coming. The hard part must be waiting for that special dagger to penetrate his back, knowing it was coming at some point once the invasion was repelled.

[The Swordbearer]

Gotta say I realy realy enjoyed reading Abbyss Forging thru the Darkness posts So many nails hit right on the head

In fact these and all the other member posts were a better read than I experienced purveying prologs and/or first chapter in the few books that initialy captured my attention after reading the flyleaf in the bookstore!

Only wish I could have had my copy at the same time. So I could join in the conversation.

That said I found this book quite satisfying, even if it was a litle non confrontational martialy speaking.

Hope we get more Jaghut moments in FoL

[IgnatiusKruppe]

As to a post on page 2 about internal philosophizing.
My biggest problem with this, is that all the characters seem to come to the same conclusions, their thoughts have such similar flavors. To be honest, it should have bugged me more when someone like Crokus is reaching the same epiphanies as Mael or whatever.

[Overactive Imagination]

I liked this book a lot.

It seemed like there was more philosophisizing in this book than any other Malazan books, and I agree it was a bit too much (sometimes i really like the philosophy but sometimes it seems a bit repetitive), but overall the book was awesome. I can definitely see the Shakespeare influences in the language and seriously tragic scenes.

Nice call with the ''redder wedding,'' Abyss. That scene was fuckin brutal.

I liked how the book had a different feel and structure. The worldbuilding was so kickass and although i was immersed, it felt like a different kind of immersion than what happened with the main series which is cool.

This post has been edited by Overactive Imagination: 23 March 2013 - 05:05 AM

[lastname]

Abyss, on 20 August 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

Gallan... Galdan... Galar... seriously SE?

Abyss, on 24 August 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

Also... Risp/Rise/Raskan/Rancet/Ribs/Really???

The ones that really tripped me up were Faror, Finarra and Feren, the first two being companions for large stretches. Also Kagamandra. Kagamandra?? No wonder the dude was "dead inside".

Enjoyed the book and Abyss's forging. Nice to see some pieces dovetail nicely into the main series. Also nice to see how some pieces don't fit anything we know ... yet. Lots of surprises although some things never change (I'm looking at you, Olar Ethil). I thought the book was pretty grim, in general (someone - Kanese maybe? - mentioned something like this), particularly some of the mad dog's antics and the lack of response from ... anyone.

[Tiste Simeon]

Just finished! Reading through this thread has helped me sort things out in my head. So stoked for my reread!

[Grimjazz]

Also recently finished reading, this thread really helped settle and stir up a few things.

Best part: Haut.

Worst part: I agree that there was way too much philosophizing going on but I can see how it also added to the story.

Coolest character: Gripp Galas.

[morfumax]

Abyss, on 24 August 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

"The High King has built a ship". WHAT???? does that mean Kallor....??? Whoa...

I'm so confused about Kallor at the Moment. Does this mean he already had the First Empire, and laid waste to it, or does he just cyclically do that. Especially it's mentioned about Errastas and Sech running away to the Empire.

[LinearPhilosopher]

so i just finished reading the book, despite having ordered it the month it came out... yes i take procrastination to a whole new level.

One thing that irks me, why does every1 assume that it's kallor that's running around. It may be im forgetting the specific passage in FOD but in general i don't think every character or name we hear can be easily transposed unto known characters.

[worry]

I don't think anyone thinks Kallor is running around. It's just that he's the most likely character to be called High King, given how ancient he is and his apparent grudge with the Azathanai. I personally would find it most interesting if the High King is Kallor, but he's a very different (even a "good") man at this point in time. It's also true that there are other possibilities that would prove very interesting as well.

[Abyss]

We've seen name overlap elsebook... Apsalar / Apsalara, Shul / Shool, Mok / Mock etc etc, and aspect overlap (we're up to what, five Gods of War...? )... but titles like Son of Darkness or The Warlord or High King tend to stick to one very specific individual.


We don't know that it is Kallor... and tho the evidence, esp TtH and BaB, is pretty damn compelling, there is also evidence to the opposite, notably the MoI prologue curses.

[Fiddler]

I have to disagree slightly with you Abyss, the prologue of MoI doesn't necessarily contradict Kallor being present before then. After all, he does speak about his knowledge of Century Candles and the like in later chapters of MoI. I think that perhaps Kallor could have been involved much earlier, but we may find that Kallor the name, is just as inheritable as the title of King. At least that's my little theory.

Also, maybe this is covered elsewhere, but why is Anomander described as being golden skinned and human looking in FoD?

[amphibian]

Because he looked like that prior to Mother Darkness's "blessing".