[Otataral Toblakai]

The more I read, the more I find that I am turning into a member of that wretched human sub-specie, the critic, a lifeform that is cursed with the ability to criticise works of art/science/human expression yet finds itself out of reach of the ability to shape such work, turning this inherent inability into an ability to attempt to degrade the work of others. To this end, I find critical qualities inherent that fail to allow me to enjoy mundane works - and excite the senses - but are led to a needle in the haystack quest of attempting to ascertain the presence of flaws in any piece of literature I lay eyes on. In the world of factoidism, such ability is appreciable but in the world of fiction, it is antithesis to the purpose of reading fiction.

And so I ask, what medication may I partake of to end this ailment?

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

Imagine four critics on the edge of a cliff...

[Aptorian]

Oh man you are going to enjoy one of the early discussions in Forge of Darkness between a patron and an artist.

[Ulrik]

Otataral Toblakai, on 07 August 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

The more I read, the more I find that I am turning into a member of that wretched human sub-specie, the critic, a lifeform that is cursed with the ability to criticise works of art/science/human expression yet finds itself out of reach of the ability to shape such work, turning this inherent inability into an ability to attempt to degrade the work of others.

Thank you for such beautiful characteristic of my job...) and now, to your formal writing abilities...

This post has been edited by Ulrik: 07 August 2012 - 09:38 PM

[Kanese S's]

You need to cultivate your "not giving a shit" skills to avoid playing the critic. You need to learn to put aside expectation. That's what I do when watching a movie or reading a book. The inner critic is always there at the back of my mind, but it's good to be able to prioritize, instead of criticisms, the simple question of whether or not the work entertained you.

[Sinisdar Toste]

yeah, i learned long ago to leave expectations at the door when i approach a new piece of media. once i've taken it all in, then i allow myself to judge it's quality and relative merits, and sometimes this happens over a period of weeks. it depends on the complexity of the material. i read infinite jest recently and it took me weeks to stop thinking about this or that plot point or hilarious detail that Wallace wrote in (or put in the endnotes. my GOD the endnotes!); contrast that to a recent read of a robin hobb book, soldier son. just a few days later and i'd hammered out my opinion.

enough about me though. this is the key. keep your mind open to all things while you're reading/viewing something new. even if nothing you've seen so far leads you to believe that what you're taking in is any good, allow for the possibility that something might happen to change your perspective entirely. i once kept up this attitude right to the end of a book and was forced to admit that i'd just read something pretty terrible. luckily it was a library book. sometimes the method fails, but usually only when confronted with utter crap.

[Puck]

Pro tip: less flowery meandering and more actual reading.

[Otataral Toblakai]

Damn it! Rub it in, then! I haven't gotten my hands on FoD yet and I hunger for it so much, i'd kill for it. My precious...

Aptorius, on 07 August 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

Oh man you are going to enjoy one of the early discussions in Forge of Darkness between a patron and an artist.

a priest, a rabbi and a critic enter a bar...and i forget.

POOPOO MCBUMFACE, on 07 August 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

Imagine four critics on the edge of a cliff...

Wny dear Ulrik, thank you! It so fills my bottomless abyss of a heart with happiness to know that I am cherished by those I cherish least.

My formal writing abilities are, to put it shortly, informal. But you'd be surprised at what I do for a living. I know I am. Am I?

Ulrik, on 07 August 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

Otataral Toblakai, on 07 August 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

The more I read, the more I find that I am turning into a member of that wretched human sub-specie, the critic, a lifeform that is cursed with the ability to criticise works of art/science/human expression yet finds itself out of reach of the ability to shape such work, turning this inherent inability into an ability to attempt to degrade the work of others.

Thank you for such beautiful characteristic of my job...) and now, to your formal writing abilities...

Well put, Kanese. That is what I try to do. I try hard but unfortunately, that itch to scroll down the imdb page of a movie and read the reviews hardly go away. And I find I miss great movies because of that. Like you put it, its all about wether the book entertains you or not and frankly, that is what its all about.

Kanese S, on 07 August 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

You need to cultivate your "not giving a shit" skills to avoid playing the critic. You need to learn to put aside expectation. That's what I do when watching a movie or reading a book. The inner critic is always there at the back of my mind, but it's good to be able to prioritize, instead of criticisms, the simple question of whether or not the work entertained you.

Open mindedness then is your suggestion. Intriguing. Ill try that and not apply the theory of literary relativity by comparing all with, as usually happens, with MBotF. And I think ill give the Infinite Jest book a look, seems hilarious.

Sinisdar Toste, on 07 August 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

yeah, i learned long ago to leave expectations at the door when i approach a new piece of media. once i've taken it all in, then i allow myself to judge it's quality and relative merits, and sometimes this happens over a period of weeks. it depends on the complexity of the material. i read infinite jest recently and it took me weeks to stop thinking about this or that plot point or hilarious detail that Wallace wrote in (or put in the endnotes. my GOD the endnotes!); contrast that to a recent read of a robin hobb book, soldier son. just a few days later and i'd hammered out my opinion.

enough about me though. this is the key. keep your mind open to all things while you're reading/viewing something new. even if nothing you've seen so far leads you to believe that what you're taking in is any good, allow for the possibility that something might happen to change your perspective entirely. i once kept up this attitude right to the end of a book and was forced to admit that i'd just read something pretty terrible. luckily it was a library book. sometimes the method fails, but usually only when confronted with utter crap.

Puck, please explain that. Flowery meandering in what way?

Puck, on 07 August 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

Pro tip: less flowery meandering and more actual reading.

Mod edit: a sextuple post, that has to be some sort of record for disregarding forum etiquette

[HiddenOne]

OT, the most relevant experience I have in this area is related to music. As a musician with some years of experience & training, I can recognize what is "good" on several levels. There are the performer's skill, the creativeness invested, variations from the norm, popular appeal, and so on. Beyond this is how a piece can move, excite, or engage the listener, often without consideration for taste. For example, I do not care for rap/R&B/dance music, but recognize that Timbaland is a master of his craft in many regards. Do I own his records? No, but I listen with appreciation to his work when it is played. This example could apply to any genre, art form, etc.

To help you with your problem, as someone above may have suggested, step back from yourself a bit and be objective. If you can disassociate from your own inclinations, then it is easier to appreciate art for its own sake, in addition to evaluating its effect on your own psyche. Only then can you fairly judge and criticize.

[Puck]

Otataral Toblakai, on 08 August 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Puck, please explain that. Flowery meandering in what way?

Puck, on 07 August 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

Pro tip: less flowery meandering and more actual reading.

The way I see it, after having talked to you on chat several times and reading your various threads, you are too preoccupied with narrow walls you set yourself, so you keep swimming in circles in your own soup. You try to sound educated when in truth you make your own posts nigh unreadable. You claim to be a critic but can't say what it is you appreciate here or deem to be lacking there.

HiddenOne put it much better than I could: disassociate yourself from your own inclinations and you will find that the world is much bigger than the confines of the wall you have built for yourself. Art can be appreciated for it's own sake, which is something you don't seem to understand so far, contrary to your own claims (I'm speaking of your stance on rereading specifically here, tbh). You can only critisize what you know, and knowing requieres an open mind, and a mind cannot be truly open if you don't realise works can be appreciated on multiple layers.

To sum it up: you're standing in your own way by preoccupying yourself with needless minutiae.

This post has been edited by Puck: 08 August 2012 - 12:43 PM

[Otataral Toblakai]

HiddenOne, an excellent analogy. With music, I seem to have achieved something similar to that, transcending to a state where I accept all forms of music - arguing particularly for say Bieber and Black, despite being a metalhead. To that end, it seems an excellent way of applying it to literature and fiction. Ill try picking up a book that I initially set aside for this reason and then try what you suggest.

HiddenOne, on 08 August 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

OT, the most relevant experience I have in this area is related to music. As a musician with some years of experience & training, I can recognize what is "good" on several levels. There are the performer's skill, the creativeness invested, variations from the norm, popular appeal, and so on. Beyond this is how a piece can move, excite, or engage the listener, often without consideration for taste. For example, I do not care for rap/R&B/dance music, but recognize that Timbaland is a master of his craft in many regards. Do I own his records? No, but I listen with appreciation to his work when it is played. This example could apply to any genre, art form, etc.

To help you with your problem, as someone above may have suggested, step back from yourself a bit and be objective. If you can disassociate from your own inclinations, then it is easier to appreciate art for its own sake, in addition to evaluating its effect on your own psyche. Only then can you fairly judge and criticize.

[Ulrik]

Otataral Toblakai, on 08 August 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

Wny dear Ulrik, thank you! It so fills my bottomless abyss of a heart with happiness to know that I am cherished by those I cherish least.

My formal writing abilities are, to put it shortly, informal. But you'd be surprised at what I do for a living. I know I am. Am I?

Ulrik, on 07 August 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

Otataral Toblakai, on 07 August 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

The more I read, the more I find that I am turning into a member of that wretched human sub-specie, the critic, a lifeform that is cursed with the ability to criticise works of art/science/human expression yet finds itself out of reach of the ability to shape such work, turning this inherent inability into an ability to attempt to degrade the work of others.

Thank you for such beautiful characteristic of my job...) and now, to your formal writing abilities...

Im pretty sure you are doing it wrong! (despite I dont know what are you doing) So I have to give you just slightly abova average rating... Next time, try something different. Its just not working. Too big ambitions. Simply...WROOOONG ))

edit: But, if you mean it seriously (I really didnt:)), just...well, relax. Its not growing your little critic inside, its just fact that you have read too many good books to be satisfied with mediocre. It the damned burden called experience. Believe me, good critic doeasn need to crush and humiliate. Critic doesnt mean "be bad". There can be positive criticism...sayin how great THE THING is. But back to your problem - when you feel that you must be dissatisfied, that you are even angry, do, what I did during my critic crisis. Realize that you wont change anything. Only thing you can do is enjoy the book/ film/ game. And if you are not enjoying it...its not simply for you and it doeasnt matter if it is shit or simply "not your cup of tea". Just dont waste time with it

This post has been edited by Ulrik: 08 August 2012 - 01:32 PM

[Abyss]

MODGOD NOTICE OF THREAD MOVE - THIS THREAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MALAZAN BOOKS AND HAS BEEN MOVED TO THE INN. THE 'GENERAL BOOK' FORUM IS FOR GENERAL AND SPOILERIFFIC DISCUSSION OF THE SERIES.
CARRY ON WHATEVER IT WAS YOU WERE DOING.

[worry]

Please critique/review this axolotl.

[Adjutant Stormy~]

worrywort, on 08 August 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

(axolotl)

It's shite.

[Kanese S's]

Basically, stop judging stuff you read in comparison to other works, at least the first time through. Don't judge another fantasy book in comparison to Malazan. Malazan takes place in a different world than whatever book you'd be comparing it to.

Instead of analyzing, just relax and enjoy the ride, such as it is. Remember that if the book/movie/show/whatever entertains you, then it is on some level a success.

[Illuyankas]

POOPOO MCBUMFACE, on 07 August 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

Imagine four critics on the edge of a cliff...

Imagine four Elients on the edge of a Gate. Say a D'ivers portion of the dragon nearest the Gate is sent to the back of the line of dragons and takes the place of the first Elient. The formerly first dragon becomes the second, the second becomes the third, and the fourth flies into the Gate.

Tiam works the same way.

[Otataral Toblakai]

Ok, firstly OUCH.

Ill admit that I come off as that but that's because of my social ineptitude and spending life as more of a hermit than anything else. I don't mean to sound educated and indeed, I try to sound as not as I can. I just, unfortunately, end up sounding that way possibly because I prefer formality to informality. I admit I set up narrow walls but I have this narrow minded outlook at life that I intend to change. My posts end up unreadable because that's just how I write, experimenting with English and, yes, ending up with gibberish, a problem i've had since I started writing/reading.

As for the critic part, I don't claim to be one. I simply claim that I find myself subconsciously turning into one and that is what I don't like - beg pardon, Ulrik! It ends up leaving me unable to enjoy anything. And your suggestions are excellent. I believe I need to break these walls down, preferrably with a sledgehammer, and I intend to start doing by reading something I thought unreadable and so dropped it.

Puck, on 08 August 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

Otataral Toblakai, on 08 August 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Puck, please explain that. Flowery meandering in what way?

Puck, on 07 August 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

Pro tip: less flowery meandering and more actual reading.

The way I see it, after having talked to you on chat several times and reading your various threads, you are too preoccupied with narrow walls you set yourself, so you keep swimming in circles in your own soup. You try to sound educated when in truth you make your own posts nigh unreadable. You claim to be a critic but can't say what it is you appreciate here or deem to be lacking there.

HiddenOne put it much better than I could: disassociate yourself from your own inclinations and you will find that the world is much bigger than the confines of the wall you have built for yourself. Art can be appreciated for it's own sake, which is something you don't seem to understand so far, contrary to your own claims (I'm speaking of your stance on rereading specifically here, tbh). You can only critisize what you know, and knowing requieres an open mind, and a mind cannot be truly open if you don't realise works can be appreciated on multiple layers.

To sum it up: you're standing in your own way by preoccupying yourself with needless minutiae.

[Otataral Toblakai]

Why, you are welcome (despite the fact that I hate smileys and LOL..!)

Positive criticism? Hmm. Ill have to give that a look then. That'll probably make me regard that sub-par specie with above par cognition then.

Ulrik, on 08 August 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

Otataral Toblakai, on 08 August 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

Wny dear Ulrik, thank you! It so fills my bottomless abyss of a heart with happiness to know that I am cherished by those I cherish least.

My formal writing abilities are, to put it shortly, informal. But you'd be surprised at what I do for a living. I know I am. Am I?

Ulrik, on 07 August 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

Otataral Toblakai, on 07 August 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

The more I read, the more I find that I am turning into a member of that wretched human sub-specie, the critic, a lifeform that is cursed with the ability to criticise works of art/science/human expression yet finds itself out of reach of the ability to shape such work, turning this inherent inability into an ability to attempt to degrade the work of others.

Thank you for such beautiful characteristic of my job...) and now, to your formal writing abilities...

Im pretty sure you are doing it wrong! (despite I dont know what are you doing) So I have to give you just slightly abova average rating... Next time, try something different. Its just not working. Too big ambitions. Simply...WROOOONG ))

edit: But, if you mean it seriously (I really didnt:)), just...well, relax. Its not growing your little critic inside, its just fact that you have read too many good books to be satisfied with mediocre. It the damned burden called experience. Believe me, good critic doeasn need to crush and humiliate. Critic doesnt mean "be bad". There can be positive criticism...sayin how great THE THING is. But back to your problem - when you feel that you must be dissatisfied, that you are even angry, do, what I did during my critic crisis. Realize that you wont change anything. Only thing you can do is enjoy the book/ film/ game. And if you are not enjoying it...its not simply for you and it doeasnt matter if it is shit or simply "not your cup of tea". Just dont waste time with it

Well said, Kanese. It seems comparing everything to MBotF is not a good idea because nothing compares to it. I mean nothing. I have started seeing simply for enjoyment and I plan to tread through a number of B movies to educate myself!

Kanese S, on 08 August 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

Basically, stop judging stuff you read in comparison to other works, at least the first time through. Don't judge another fantasy book in comparison to Malazan. Malazan takes place in a different world than whatever book you'd be comparing it to.

Instead of analyzing, just relax and enjoy the ride, such as it is. Remember that if the book/movie/show/whatever entertains you, then it is on some level a success.

[Satan]

I'm sorry but there's simply no sense in this thread. Why would you ever want to hate less? It just doesn't compute...