[Imperial Historian]

So finished the book yesterday, and I'm still not 100% sure what I think about it. The book doesn't so much end as peter out, and such it's clearly volume 1 of a three part tale, and as such the final judgement is going to have to wait for the final finished volume, but things seem to be well set up by this volume and I'm looking forward to the next installments.

The Good
This book answers a lot of questions we have about the early tiste/elient/elder god history (while of course posing about a million more), and SE once again gives us some very memorable characters, and new looks at some of the characters we thought we knew. Some people will be disappointed that we don't get a POV of the major players like draconus, rake and his brothers, scara bandaris etc, but I think it was a wise decision not to get to much into the heads of these epic characters and spoil the mythos, but I did enjoy the viewpoint of arogant teen osseric, and getting to see some more of the other players from other viewpoints. The new look at scara bandaris was especially good, and as much as I wish we'd seen inside his head, it was good to see him in a more favourable light, I look forward to seeing his descent into the character we meet in MT.

One thing I was worried about for this book was that since we already knew the broad strokes of the story that erikson would be less able to shock, but the capacity for erikson to shock was still there, though the tragedy of andarists wedding was expected, he still managed to fit in a few surprises, the poisoning of the hust legion and the associated treachery elevated hunn raal into almost mallick rel levels of hate in my eyes.

Then there were the glimpses into the past. Brood is an elder god (or azathanai as they are now revealed)! Envy and spite have a sister! Their mother is olar ethil! T'riss! Gothos is known as the Lord of Hate, and was the closest the Jaghut had to a leader. The shake worshiped the river not mother dark? Dragons! Kagamandra Tulas and the jhelleck who presumably become the hounds of light, dark and shadow. I loved it.

The Bad
There seemed to be a lot of viewpoint characters in this one, even for a malazan book, and the switching between them didn't seem as smooth as it usually does. Time will tell whether these were all required, but I think most of this is probably necessary groundwork for the next books. Introspection levels were high as usual (similar levels to the last 3 malazans), and sometimes seemed a little forced.

I'm not going to go into the timeline, but I will say that taking what we knew before and what is revealed in this book and turning it into a logical timeline is going to be challenging to say the least. Most inconsitencies I'm fairly happy with as being mis-interpretations of history, though some (especially the three sisters) will have to wait until the conclusion and finding exactly whats going on with T'iam before exactly how the massive mis-interpretation came about.

So on the whole a good book, but I'm now really excited about seeing rake, brood, t'riss, envy, osserc etc travelling together, which has been hinted at before, but now I suspect we will see in this trilogy. The take down of draconus would seem likely to fit in this arc as well, which will be interesting (and tie the timeline in further knots!). I'm hoping we'll see d'rek, korlat, and t'iam as well. I also have a lot of questions, a careful re-read of some of the sections refering to the past is required I think, and will hopefully shed some light as to where SE is going!

[Cedz]

I just finished Forge of Darkness now as well. I have to say I have similar feelings on what I thought of it at the moment. On one hand this book gave us a massive insight into the Tiste history and culture as well as very interesting information on what the Elder Gods were and how it all started with K'rul etc. On the other hand the story really did crawl along for most of the book only to start to gain momentum near the end and then just peter out disappointingly at the end as Imperial Historian mentioned. I honestly can't quite understand Erikson's thought processes on how he wanted to tell this story in terms of impact. It's almost like it is half a book (I know its the first in a trilogy but it still needs to stand on its own to some extent).

I was very dissapointed that considering the main storyline was in regards to the Tiste Civil War, that the biggest clash of soldiers in the book was all over after one cavalry charge. I just don't think he built up the scale well enough to make Rake's decision to drink of draconian blood have the appropriate impact in terms of what has driven him to that last desperate gambit. In my opinion the scale should have been more like Midnight Tides or The Crimson Guard.

Hopefully Fall of Light will up the ante.

I have to say though that the scene with Hood standing in front of the Gate in to Death with tens of thousands of Jaghut, Dog-Runners and Thel Akai answering his call for war was just downright awesome.

Oh and yeah, dragons.

This post has been edited by Cedz: 03 August 2012 - 10:32 AM

[tiam]

Yes I am unsure what to make of it. Some comments from previous books make little sense in relation to his book. For example the SHeltatha Lore not being the mother of Envy etc was clearly stated. There was more than a few others that were jarring. For example the First Shore could be considered the Vitr, MD is nothing but an ascendent rather than an elemental being though somehow becomes one with the close of the book. References to 'across the sea' and also to this Errant and Setch fleeing to the High kings Kingdom adventure is intriguing. While I enjoyed learning Anomander isnt really MDs son and it was simply an honorific title aswell as the fact the fact it turned out the Azathanai invented all races which I had suspected for a while, very similar to Raymond Feists books, it still felt odd.

On a series reread im sure ill come across a wealth of comments that make no sense in relation to this book, even from reputable sources, but I still enjoyed it. Very AGOT esque I felt with a rise of civil war tension.

Was anyone else surprised by how modern MD was? I had imagined the Tiste races being isolated from WU, with the EG in between both worlds with the Jaghut, Eres and Imass being native to Wu. The EG creating races made sense but I was surprised that the Thel Akai were there. Also I think Gothos is an Azathanai who has tired of his own game. Also I was surprised by the inclusion of Triss and also a mention of Ardatha as in the ICE novels it portrays Triss as the greatest sorceress of her age usurping Ardatha as the Enchantress. Also the references to MD first children not being Andii (which we all thought meant the EGs) from reputable sources makes little sense from what weve seen.

Many things like this made the book difficult to read but maybe it was my perception of the Andii being isolated with the idea of the time of All Dark. Tbh I was very surprised the Andii realm even had a sun.

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 03 August 2012 - 10:31 PM

[Cedz]

Quote

Yes I am unsure what to make of it. Some comments from previous books make little sense in relation to his book. For example the SHeltatha Lore not being the mother of Envy etc was clearly stated. There was more than a few others that were jarring. For example the First Shore could be considered the Vitr, MD is nothing but an ascendent rather than an elemental being though somehow becomes one with the close of the book. References to 'across the sea' and also to this Errant and Setch fleeing to the High kings Kingdom adventure is intriguing. While I enjoyed learning Anomander isnt really MDs son and it was simply an honorific title aswell as the fact the fact it turned out the Azathanai invented all races which I had suspected for a while, very similar to Raymond Feists books, it still felt odd.

I think considering how far back this history takes place that a lot of what we hear in the main books has been distorted massively from what actually happened. In Sheltatha Lore's case it might simply be a case that she looked after Envy for a period of time and that has been changed over time to that of her being the mother.

Honestly I'm of two minds on whether the continent that we are shown in Forge of Darkness used to actually be a part of Wu. My prediction is that the three realms of Kurald Galain, Kurald Thyrllan, and Kurald Emurlahn will be created because of the 'gift' that Draconus gave Mother Dark and it's corresponding ramifications (ie other gates appearing such as Death and Starvald Demalain).

Quote

Was anyone else surprised by how modern MD was? I had imagined the Tiste races being isolated from WU, with the EG in between both worlds with the Jaghut, Eres and Imass being native to Wu. The EG creating races made sense but I was surprised that the Thel Akai were there. Also I think Gothos is an Azathanai who has tired of his own game. Also I was surprised by the inclusion of Triss and also a mention of Ardatha as in the ICE novels it portrays Triss as the greatest sorceress of her age usurping Ardatha as the Enchantress. Also the references to MD first children not being Andii (which we all thought meant the EGs) from reputable sources makes little sense from what weve seen.

Did you mean the Tiste civilization? I expected it to be pretty modern and well developed considering how cultured the Tiste seemed from the flashbacks we had seen in Toll the Hounds. I'm not convinced that the Azathanai created all of the races that were mentioned as it wasn't a conclusive statement that was made. I was definitely surprised to see T'riss was an Azathanai as it was made to sound in the main books that she was a normal human sorceress (dog-runner descendant) who ascended to become the Queen of Dreams. It seems she always had that aspect considering she was referred to as the Sister of Dreams before losing her memories to the Vitr.

Considering that Mother Dark was originally a mortal Tiste woman I look at the reference to MD's first children not being Andii to being that either she literally had biological children from a normal Tiste male previous to her ascending to the Mother Dark title or that that refers to her considering the normal Tiste as her 'children' before the Andii were created by her Darkness aspect.

I'm really interested to see how the Tiste Edur get created and how Shadow is made their aspect in the future books.

This post has been edited by Cedz: 04 August 2012 - 03:39 AM

[Gaarheid]

I didnt read the book (busy on a re-read House of chains).
But Stevenson said that in the main series the trilogy is 10000 years or more earlier.
What do we (mankind) know about those early days Myths religion etc.
This gives Stevenson the right to write what he wants since it all happend so long ago

Btw was it a good book?

[tiam]

Cedz, on 04 August 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

Quote

Yes I am unsure what to make of it. Some comments from previous books make little sense in relation to his book. For example the SHeltatha Lore not being the mother of Envy etc was clearly stated. There was more than a few others that were jarring. For example the First Shore could be considered the Vitr, MD is nothing but an ascendent rather than an elemental being though somehow becomes one with the close of the book. References to 'across the sea' and also to this Errant and Setch fleeing to the High kings Kingdom adventure is intriguing. While I enjoyed learning Anomander isnt really MDs son and it was simply an honorific title aswell as the fact the fact it turned out the Azathanai invented all races which I had suspected for a while, very similar to Raymond Feists books, it still felt odd.

I think considering how far back this history takes place that a lot of what we hear in the main books has been distorted massively from what actually happened. In Sheltatha Lore's case it might simply be a case that she looked after Envy for a period of time and that has been changed over time to that of her being the mother.

Honestly I'm of two minds on whether the continent that we are shown in Forge of Darkness used to actually be a part of Wu. My prediction is that the three realms of Kurald Galain, Kurald Thyrllan, and Kurald Emurlahn will be created because of the 'gift' that Draconus gave Mother Dark and it's corresponding ramifications (ie other gates appearing such as Death and Starvald Demalain).

Quote

Was anyone else surprised by how modern MD was? I had imagined the Tiste races being isolated from WU, with the EG in between both worlds with the Jaghut, Eres and Imass being native to Wu. The EG creating races made sense but I was surprised that the Thel Akai were there. Also I think Gothos is an Azathanai who has tired of his own game. Also I was surprised by the inclusion of Triss and also a mention of Ardatha as in the ICE novels it portrays Triss as the greatest sorceress of her age usurping Ardatha as the Enchantress. Also the references to MD first children not being Andii (which we all thought meant the EGs) from reputable sources makes little sense from what weve seen.

Did you mean the Tiste civilization? I expected it to be pretty modern and well developed considering how cultured the Tiste seemed from the flashbacks we had seen in Toll the Hounds. I'm not convinced that the Azathanai created all of the races that were mentioned as it wasn't a conclusive statement that was made. I was definitely surprised to see T'riss was an Azathanai as it was made to sound in the main books that she was a normal human sorceress (dog-runner descendant) who ascended to become the Queen of Dreams. It seems she always had that aspect considering she was referred to as the Sister of Dreams before losing her memories to the Vitr.

Considering that Mother Dark was originally a mortal Tiste woman I look at the reference to MD's first children not being Andii to being that either she literally had biological children from a normal Tiste male previous to her ascending to the Mother Dark title or that that refers to her considering the normal Tiste as her 'children' before the Andii were created by her Darkness aspect.

I'm really interested to see how the Tiste Edur get created and how Shadow is made their aspect in the future books.

Im sure it will become something along those lines of surrogate mother but we see this viewpoint from her supposed sisters who would surely know. That entire comment in MT I think strikes me as odd now. Menandore and Sukhul are stating that 'Sheltatha had children with one of THIS worlds gods'(emphasis mine) which doesnt make sense as Draconus was in both worlds and also give the impression of Wu being a seperate realm. The concept of Burn also troubled me. Burn is considered the greatest Bonecaster and is sleeping before MD became an entity of godlike status. Yet we know she has been sleeping for around a thousand years by the main series meaning she must have woken up at some point. Also OE claims to be Burn yet in this its implied she is a child of OE, though ofc OE is mad by the main arc. Furthermore in GOTM Raest calls Burn a young entity which makes little sense. Also Ereko refers to the TE when he sees them as one of a few alien invaders in ROTCG which makes no sense when the Thel Akai civilisation is a few days on horseback away

I see what your saying about history being distorted but that can only go so far. We have significant portions of flash back or ancient POVs in the main arc that paint a different picture than the one we got in FOD.

I did not mean the Tiste civilisation I meant MD herself. I believed her to be a creator type entity, or atleast one of the first, that when she was defeated by the KCCM deathspell all life would end, which is a theme of a few books esp MT and TTH, yet she isnt as old as a few entities who make it into the main series. Gothos is already ancient by his description, and probably an azathanai, and with reference to Tyrants already among the Imass peoples we might get a view of Raest which means he may pre date MD.

As for her children being biological children im unconvinced. The quote states that no matter what Anomander might claim MD first children were not TA. For her children to simply be normal Tiste doesnt convince me for some reason.

The Edur will likely be created by either Bloodeye becoming Father Shadow similar to Vatha or by being neutral between the two sides their skin simply changes colour in reflection of their neutrality thus creating a race. We know they are born out of those who defended the First Shore (which isnt the First Shore at all)

As for the realm itself I am at a loss. There are references to seperate Kingdoms, other things across the sea which makes Kurald Galain a multiracial realm which I did not expect. I thought it was a nice touch to have Vatha Urusander being obsessed with FA scripture and thus explaining the TL predilections for justice and righteousness.

Who was Arathans mother btw I think I missed that, aswell as Korya's identity? She struck me as similar to the revelation about Orchid in OST.

I did enjoy the book and some of the changes to perceptions were welcome, such as the honorary First Son status. Others however felt like inconsistencies and while SE urges us to trust him I frankly do not. He does not care if it all fits together, he simply wants to tell the story he wants and if it doesnt make sense then tough shit.

Undoubtedly any questioning of the timeline or any other inconsistencies will have the smug self proclaimed literary analysts on the site throwing the term 'list maker' at people who are confused at the change of perception this book give us.

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 04 August 2012 - 09:56 AM

[Urizen]

[quote name='Jean-Claude Van tiam' timestamp='1344072142' post='984362']
[quote name='Cedz' timestamp='1344051417' post='984329']

Who was Arathans mother btw I think I missed that, aswell as Korya's identity? She struck me as similar to the revelation about Orchid in OST.

I don't think Arathan's mom is revealed.
I think Arathan is a good suspect for being either Ruthan Gudd or QB in MBOTF. Perhaps we'll get a bit of genderbender with Korya Delath turning into QB?

[Starling]

I finished this book last night, and already feel like I need to reread it to catch everything I missed the first time.

It's quite a while since I've read any of the main series except GOTM, so I guess I'm not getting the timeline issues as much as everyone else. And honestly, I think I'd rather a decent story than one that sticks to all the details of the chronology. Isn't that part of the point of any history anyway? There were always going to be inconsistencies, and I'm starting to wonder if Erikson is doing it deliberately...

I agree with Imperial Historian, this book was all build up with very little climax. I guess we have to wait for following books to see what happens. I also found that there was none of the humour found in the main series, which felt a bit jarring for me. This book was very dark in a lot of places, and a bit of comic relief would have been welcome. It does set up a lot of awesome stuff for the next book though; Hood and his army, the relationship between Korya and Arathan, DRAGONS!

The main point of enjoyment for me was seeing the origins of so many awesome characters, and trying to see how that will match up with what we see of them centuries later. Anomander and his brothers, MD, the relationship between Envy, Spite and Malice, snotty adolescent Osserc, Orfantal, Kadaspala... I missed the connection between T'riss and the Queen of Dreams.

I also love how aware Erikson is about the way language changes, so we get a real reminder about how stories and histories change as well. Like, somehow Scara Bandaris, honourable captain and friend of Silchas Ruin, will become Scabandari, nasty horrible evil traitorous backstabber.

On the whole, I really enjoyed this book, and I'm looking forward to the next!

[Urizen]

Starling, on 05 August 2012 - 01:28 AM, said:

I agree with Imperial Historian, this book was all build up with very little climax. I guess we have to wait for following books to see what happens. I also found that there was none of the humour found in the main series, which felt a bit jarring for me. This book was very dark in a lot of places, and a bit of comic relief would have been welcome. It does set up a lot of awesome stuff for the next book though; Hood and his army, the relationship between Korya and Arathan, DRAGONS!

While it didn't have the humour of MBOTF, I felt that the Jaghut scenes were pretty funny.

[Iamme]

Caladan Brood! He is older than Rake...and not barghast. Book is turning everything on it's head. How can that weakling be Osserc? Osserc was bastard of father light!

[Pig Iron]

I think it was one of SE's strongest. Incredibly how he with the many viewpoints showed the interplay between the personal, myth, society, politics, religion, history, and ultimately civil war. Reading about what happens in Syria right now it rings true. One main theme is father/mother-son/daughter relations with many variations including Haut-Korya. If you read ancient myths, they're often at heart about family, and pantheons seem to be like dysfunctional family gatherings. I think he nailed all of that.

Yes, are Korya and Arathan known in TMBOTF by other names? How will the warrens be created from Kruls gift (and aspected to different dragons)? Seems alot will be about how order is imposed/forced on the sudden emergence of complexity in world.

[spim]

Just finished the book. All I gotta say is, holy shit I can't wait for Fall of Light! Here's my interpretation for several of the events:

*Mother Dark being a regular Tiste who 'ascended' by being given the gift of Night by Draconus + her dive into Chaos. I highly suspect that Arathan is MD and Draconus's son as Draconus states at some point that the woman he loved bore Arathan. Kinda makes sense in a tragic sort of way. This theory could be taken further with Anomander's daughter later known as Aranatha (which I think is MD's real name). Arathan and Aranatha both sound like Azathanai names so, that could be the case. /shrug

*Errastas being the first Azathanai to spill blood in such a manner + Draconus bringing down the Gate of Darkness and consequently all other Gates following = rise of Elder Gods. I'm guessing the other Azathanai have no choice but to follow the path of blood worship if they want to stay in power/level as Errastas, thus following the same thing that we've seen in MBOTF (Ascendants/gods drawn towards lodestones to power etc)

*That power all comes down to the Gates (unsure)

*That everyone's vulnerable. The running theme seems to be about children or the 'younger' generation stomping over the older one.

*SE breaking away from the norms of fantasy writing as seen with the birth of Liosan and the MD herself. Before FoD, I honestly thought MD and FL were both elemental beings born from Chaos etc.

*Kadaspala's story was awesome.

*Dog-runners are probably imass - human etc and that humans have already begun to descend from the imass. The Old Man Azathanai mentioning that the 'High King' has built a ship is probably a reference to Kallor. Same goes for Errastas/Sechul Lath fleeing across the ocean to the high kingdom could be a reference to the Kallorian empire. I'm guessing that in all the upcoming shit to come, we're gonna see Wu being born through Burn etc and all the elder races migrate to this new world with the only real original race from Wu being the K'Chain Che'malle.

*Gothos and Hood are opposites of each other but both have more power than Jaghut Tyrants. Possibly the two most powerful Jaghuts in existence.

This post has been edited by spim: 05 August 2012 - 09:55 PM

[blackzoid]

Hey Caladan Brood, remember in MOI the way you didn't rebutt Silverfox's garbage about killing all the Jaghut being a good thing?
"And you find in this woman an abominination?" Indeed. Ya, fuck you Brood. You should have stood with Kallor against the genocide of the Jaghut. It was fine when you were a regular youngish Ascendent with Barghast blood who didn't know the full details. But......your not now. You are an Elder God. Around during the times when you knew Jaghut were mostly fine. So whats your fucking excuse Brood?

Sorry SE, its a messy retcon to me.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 05 August 2012 - 09:55 PM

[tiam]

spim, on 05 August 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

Just finished the book. All I gotta say is, holy shit I can't wait for Fall of Light! Here's my interpretation for several of the events:

*Mother Dark being a regular Tiste who 'ascended' by being given the gift of Night by Draconus + her dive into Chaos. I highly suspect that Arathan is MD and Draconus's son as Draconus states at some point that the woman he loved bore Arathan. Kinda makes sense in a tragic sort of way. This theory could be taken further with Anomander's daughter later known as Aranatha (which I think is MD's real name). Arathan and Aranatha both sound like Azathanai names so, that could be the case. /shrug


*Dog-runners are probably imass - human etc and that humans have already begun to descend from the imass. The Old Man Azathanai mentioning that the 'High King' has built a ship is probably a reference to Kallor. Same goes for Errastas/Sechul Lath fleeing across the ocean to the high kingdom could be a reference to the Kallorian empire. I'm guessing that in all the upcoming shit to come, we're gonna see Wu being born through Burn etc and all the elder races migrate to this new world with the only real original race from Wu being the K'Chain Che'malle.

Arathan isnt MD son. Arathan himself states at the very beginning he has very few Tiste traits and claims he must take after his mother, as do his sisters with there mother, and he wonders where his father's 'tiste' blood is.

I dont think its Kallor. Weve had alot of POV scenes with Kallor about how he hates the EG and stays alive through alchemy and how he would destroy sorcery. I dont think its him but the reference is intriguing about a high king and a boat.

EDIT- Yes Brood and Triss strike me as odd but not as odd as MD being a fairly recent phenomenon with the Eres having already died out and the ancient Tiste heroes who killed dragons and drank their blood already happening centuries past.

Also why is Sinnock not really old and Enddest is? We see that there both of similar age and that theolder Tiste in this book are only around 2000 years old yet Spinnock is spritely in the new series but Enddest isnt. My initial thought was he was broken via holding Moons Spawn but even in the Nimander flashbacks Endest is an old man. How did they even live so much longer than some of the Andii here? Korlat and Orfantal aswell as some others mentioned have draconian blood explaining their longevity but how is Spinnock still there.

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 05 August 2012 - 10:41 PM

[Silk]

well lets look at the Mahybe eleemnt beign done by the Jaghut... One of Hoods brothers no less..... and the creation myth becomes a reality as the exisiting world is broken into fragmetns relating to power... i.e the reson all the holds/warrens seem to be connected is because in reality they were all neighbouring realms before the ascent into magic use became avaialble for all..... the way I see it is that MD blesses the world created by the new mahybe... (crazy speculation)

If Burn is a dog runner then she well might be related to OE in a round about way.. i.e she may be the MD of teh dog runners who follow OE .... so not so far as to claim her as a child of hers especially if that title is an honorific one the same as Sons and Daughters of Darkness.

There was also a quote in the book by one of the characters that refered to the tiste as human.. .albeit only mentioned the once in the book, this kind of threw me when I came upon it as up until that point the expectation was that the Tiste were something else....

[blackzoid]

It was a genuine mistake by SE I believe Silk. I remember that quote. It mentioned that someone was acting "inhuman".
It goes along with SE's description of the KCCM in DoD. His alien race characters are humans with just different external features. (long life, swords at end of arms, giant reptiles etc) Major racial differences but which don't seem to come out in their internal narrative.

[tiam]

Did anyone else think Korya was a sort of living Finnest? Which is pretty much a jaghut version of a myhbe, a repository of something. Just a thought.

Im on my reread now and it is very slow getting into it.

[Ivan Kersovic]

Quote

I dont think its Kallor. Weve had alot of POV scenes with Kallor about how he hates the EG and stays alive through alchemy and how he would destroy sorcery. I dont think its him but the reference is intriguing about a high king and a boat.

I don't know either way, but when the Errant and Sechul are chatting they say they have to flee the realm to "beyond the sea", and Sechul says something like "The High King's realm? You know he's forbidden the Azathanai from his lands" blah blah, which fits with Kallor's dislike of them. However this is set before the ritual of Telann, and thus is truly olddddd and although we don't know how long the Kallorian Empire lasted, we do know when it ended, and that this was long after the Imass underwent the ritual. Unless it lasted over 100k years, it would be a bit hard to marry up (though this book does change anything).

On the Myhbe thing, all I'm saying is Khorya Delat(h), soul shifting Jhagut and the son of Draconus makes me a suspicious bunny.

[tiam]

Ivan Kersovic, on 08 August 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Quote

I dont think its Kallor. Weve had alot of POV scenes with Kallor about how he hates the EG and stays alive through alchemy and how he would destroy sorcery. I dont think its him but the reference is intriguing about a high king and a boat.

I don't know either way, but when the Errant and Sechul are chatting they say they have to flee the realm to "beyond the sea", and Sechul says something like "The High King's realm? You know he's forbidden the Azathanai from his lands" blah blah, which fits with Kallor's dislike of them. However this is set before the ritual of Telann, and thus is truly olddddd and although we don't know how long the Kallorian Empire lasted, we do know when it ended, and that this was long after the Imass underwent the ritual. Unless it lasted over 100k years, it would be a bit hard to marry up (though this book does change anything).

On the Myhbe thing, all I'm saying is Khorya Delat(h), soul shifting Jhagut and the son of Draconus makes me a suspicious bunny.

I think you might have it muddled (or tbh I could have it muddled). The realm across the sea is not the High Kings realm. The Errant and Setch consider going across the sea but then decide against it because Mael is no friend of theres and its his realm. The High King is also described as being good to his subjects though this could be sarcastic. Kallor doesnt really hate the Azathanai only the EG they will become and only because theyve cursed him. Kallor hates the Thel Akai but again this hatred is probably from after the events were looking at here. Also in MOI prologue I think Kallor says he subjugated the continent and forged his empire in around 50 years, though this might well be retconned away.

[Silk]

then one needs to ask which empire he was refering to when he raised it in 50 years as he has also said he has raised many empires and let them fall