[Kaschan]

Good to see we at least got a lynch. Somewhat unsurprising he cf'd as town since his behavior sure fit that of a symp.

I think it's worth looking into where ano stood and why he may have been selected for nk, though he was the lowest poster left alive so it may have just been to avoid leaving us many clues.

The korbas bit is interesting and painfully obvious whether he is town or scum. Guess who that benefits, regardless of his alignment, so long as he isn't the killer?

[Kaschan]

Might be worthwhile to look into the korbas/karosis/ampelas bit from before. If anthras was legitimately town and telling the truth, he did insist that amp and I are scum. I know I'm inno, but I can't know about amp.

[Fener]

Kaschan, on 19 July 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

Good to see we at least got a lynch. Somewhat unsurprising he cf'd as town since his behavior sure fit that of a symp.

Out of interest, why vote Anthras yesterday then?

The vote:

Kaschan, on 18 July 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Anyway, you all know I think at least 2 of Anthras/Atrahal/Silanah are scum from my earlier posts at the end of day 1, so I won't repeat myself. Just notice that as soon as pressure arrives on Anthras, Atrahal immediately begins dismissing the cases against Anthras and Silanah. I'm willing to lynch any of these 3, though it seems like Anthras or Silanah would be the more likely lynches today.

For now,
vote Anthras

If you thought his behaviour seemed to fit symp, and were willing to go for any of them, surely he's the worst choice of the three?

[Silanah]

I am taking the time to read through specific people's posts, just to make sure how I feel about them hasn't changed much. So far I have made my way through Ampelas, Karosis and Korvalain.

Ampelas, has spent most of his posts just pushing the 'no lynch is not necessarily a bad thing' thing, which I wholeheartedly disagree with. Then when he voted for Anthras, it was cause he was spamming up the thread, not because he was scum. I paraphrased, but that's almost exactly what he said. So far, my number one target for lynch.

Karosis, I started with him because that's where I was voting day 1. He hasn't done much of anything since Day 1, he has safely followed on the trains on both days. It's a little convenient, but he doesn't really ping too hard on my scumdar.

Korvalain, voted against Karosis on Day 1, but then moved over to Kaschan to get the lynch. Had stated on thread that he would be willing to move his vote prior to moving it, so I am not currently suspicious of him for that. His Day 2 behaviour was consistent. His suspicions, when he did mention them, were against Atrahal, though he didn't really tell us why, Ampelas, who he had previously noted he did not like cause of his 'no lynch is okay' thing, and Anthras, who he ended up voting for. So, no suspicions here.

Moving on to the rest of you now...

[Silanah]

Fener, I don't really get much of a scum vibe from. He has been trying to be helpful, has built some pretty decent cases (I didn't hate his case against Atrahal yesterday), and though he moved his vote to Anthras too late, he had said that Anthras was pretty much his second favourite person for a lynch.

Korbas, hard to get anything resembling a good read on him. He basically spent Day 1 spamming up the thread, his one vote was a joke vote (to Ampelas, who's the one I currently think is most scummy) which could have been signalling. Day 2, he votes for me, but never really explains himself. In the post where he voted for me, he quoted a bunch of stuff that makes Anthras look scummy, then says he agrees with the case on me and votes me. It's a little weird. Otherwise he just pipes in here and there with mostly useless posts. Then he makes that silly post about being a symp, which could be further signalling. I am thinking Korbas is Ampelas' symp.

Sorrit, has basically had a hard on for me the whole game. One of the ones who started the Atrahal/Anthras/Silanah trio thing. He was always a believer that I was the scummiest of the three. Other than that, he pretty much just throws comments on other people's cases, which isn't bad. I don't think he's scum, though, I think he's just misguided.

[Korvalain]

Atrahal has made a few willfully ignorant posts. It seems WAY scummy to me. That's why I don't like him.


I wish we could take the time to lynch ampelas for being okay with a no lynch. That mentality has pervaded mafia. Someone has tried that approach in the past 3 games I've played in and it pisses me off big time. I know a time when we would punish this with an instant lynch, especially on day 1, but we struggle to get any lynch lately, let alone swing it to a night voter.

Phone dying, posting now, continuing once plugged in

[Kaschan]

Fener, on 19 July 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

Kaschan, on 19 July 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

Good to see we at least got a lynch. Somewhat unsurprising he cf'd as town since his behavior sure fit that of a symp.

Out of interest, why vote Anthras yesterday then?

The vote:

Kaschan, on 18 July 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Anyway, you all know I think at least 2 of Anthras/Atrahal/Silanah are scum from my earlier posts at the end of day 1, so I won't repeat myself. Just notice that as soon as pressure arrives on Anthras, Atrahal immediately begins dismissing the cases against Anthras and Silanah. I'm willing to lynch any of these 3, though it seems like Anthras or Silanah would be the more likely lynches today.

For now,
vote Anthras

If you thought his behaviour seemed to fit symp, and were willing to go for any of them, surely he's the worst choice of the three?

The lynch happened very quickly before I even got back. I think I was the first or second person to vote for him, and I didn't expect the lynch to suddenly come in before I could get out of work. I was more convinced he was on the scum team (though not strictly a scum CF) than I was convinced about Atrahal or Silanah.

[Kaschan]

I don't have much time to be thorough because I'm about to go to bed. But at the moment the Anthras CF makes it difficult to do much more than WIFOM with respect to Atrahal and Silanah. I still don't like many of the posts Atrahal has made, though, and I would not be opposed to lynching him. However, doing so would be risky if it turns out I'm wrong about the trio.

I'd also like to look into Karosis/Korbas/Ampelas, since that was another group that was implicated / suspected, and they've been moving along many of the trains (the one against me by karosis and the one against anthras by korbas) while remaining safely in the back. The Korbas comment doesn't make them look very good, either.

Sorrit, Spite, and Korvalain haven't been all that active in the last day (Korv has a pretty high post count but I don't recall him doing a whole lot, though I may be wrong) and have managed to lay pretty low for the most part after day 1's bit with korv. I want to review what they've done as well when I get some time.


Sorry for throwing this out and dipping, but I am exhausted. I'll have more tomorrow morning.

[Korvalain]

Korvalain is posting from his phone, so all he can do is respond to cases and point out strange posts. Building cases is tough.

[Silanah]

Atrahal, very small ping on the scumdar, nothing really. He basically made cases against Kaschan, and not horrible ones, but always keeps himself open to move his vote to Anthras. When Fener makes a case against him based on scum protecting symp, he basically calls him dumb for thinking that. His reasoning was sound, though. It didn't really make much sense to me that a scum would go out of their way to protect someone they think might be their symp. Otherwise, just input on what's going on. Like I said, small ping on the scumdar, but nothing too serious.

Kaschan, made cases against me as scum with Anthras being my symp or Anthras being scum and Atrahal being a symp. He then spends a good part of the day arguing with Atrahal about what makes him scummy. Seems to me that he just had a hardon for Anthras, and used Atrahal as a likely symp because Atrahal was throwing out some good refutations of his arguments. He says Atrahal was deflecting from Anthras, but I think Atrahal was just stating what many of us were thinking, and that's that Anthras was town. Kaschan gets a bit bigger of a scum ping than Atrahal.

Spite, plays a pretty decent game as far as I am concerned. Though he doesn't make any of his own cases, he adds insightful comments and thoughts on the cases out there. He liked Kaschan on Day 2, as well as Anthras. I think everyone gets blinded by high posters and spam posters, it makes people uncomfortable, so they tend to always see scum. I think if Anthras was a symp, he wasn't doing a very good job. But Kaschan, as I said about, pings my scumdar. So for now I've nothing against Spite.

[Silanah]

So based on all of the above, I like my vote on Ampelas.

vote Ampelas

[Atrahal]

Korvalain, on 19 July 2012 - 02:21 AM, said:

Atrahal has made a few willfully ignorant posts. It seems WAY scummy to me. That's why I don't like him.


I wish we could take the time to lynch ampelas for being okay with a no lynch. That mentality has pervaded mafia. Someone has tried that approach in the past 3 games I've played in and it pisses me off big time. I know a time when we would punish this with an instant lynch, especially on day 1, but we struggle to get any lynch lately, let alone swing it to a night voter.

Phone dying, posting now, continuing once plugged in

Kaschan, on 19 July 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:

I don't have much time to be thorough because I'm about to go to bed. But at the moment the Anthras CF makes it difficult to do much more than WIFOM with respect to Atrahal and Silanah. I still don't like many of the posts Atrahal has made, though, and I would not be opposed to lynching him. However, doing so would be risky if it turns out I'm wrong about the trio.

I'd also like to look into Karosis/Korbas/Ampelas, since that was another group that was implicated / suspected, and they've been moving along many of the trains (the one against me by karosis and the one against anthras by korbas) while remaining safely in the back. The Korbas comment doesn't make them look very good, either.

Sorrit, Spite, and Korvalain haven't been all that active in the last day (Korv has a pretty high post count but I don't recall him doing a whole lot, though I may be wrong) and have managed to lay pretty low for the most part after day 1's bit with korv. I want to review what they've done as well when I get some time.


Sorry for throwing this out and dipping, but I am exhausted. I'll have more tomorrow morning.

Amazing. I spend all of day two defending Anth, who was clearly innocent. Suddenly my posts are scummy. What kind of place do we live in where an innocent gets lynched and the defender gets targeted. Simply ridiculous. Let's look at who's pointing fingers maybe. There are two people who stand out at this point, Fener and Sorrit, both of whom stated prior to the Anth lynch that if he was scum, then its possible that he reveals innocent despite being scum. This on its own suggest nothing, its just a fact, but take into account the lynch train they are pushing together (after my wifom post suggesting Sorrit may be scum): Sorrit pushed a case on Anth, and Fener on Sil, if I recall. or the other way around (I'll dig up the posts in a bit). Taken together like this, we have these two players enforcing the trio theory, at the same time (more or less), and both have suggested that it wouldn't be a surprise if Anth was inno because he is a symp. Clearly they lined up their targets, and have made excuses as to why the target they are gunning for will turn up innocent, and allow them to continue their push on Sil and myself.

Unless you believe Fener about me being a master defending (extremely overtly) my symp, then we can pretty much agree that I'm almost definitely innocent. I even outlined my role previously, which probably matches up with at least a couple of the other innos' (being a talentless inno). Don;t waste your time. lets find some new angles.

[Korvalain]

Wow. Again, willfull ignorance.

Hurrdurrr I defended someone who CFed inno so I MUST be inno. If you were killer, you'd know everyone who would CF inno.

I don't even have a super boner for you, I'm just annoyed when you misinterpret very straightforward posts than push things like this that mean nothing.

[Atrahal]

These two posts made within a couple minutes of each other, both pushing the trio idea.

Fener, on 18 July 2012 - 02:07 AM, said:

Vote Anthras

For essentially the same reasons as yesterday. If he had been under more pressure, I'd think that his rather wild accusations suggested nervous scum. As it stands, I still think symp is probably more likely than master. If there was a strong connection, or I had strong suspicion about who might be his master, I'd vote that way, but nothing has really stood out at me like that. As it is, I think he's the scummiest player on thread by a wide margin so far.

The discussion of the death is WIFOM, like usual. I'm happy there's discussion, but I can't see anything very convincing coming of it. I'm also wary of it being used to give the appearance of contribution and avoiding involvement, since it is a very easy, very middle of the road, non contentious topic.

Sorrit, on 18 July 2012 - 02:10 AM, said:

So we are reliving day one....

Anthras mentions scum?

Anthras, on 16 July 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

Scum

"There's nowhere to run,
No place you can go,
Nowhere you can hide,
Where you won't be found,
There's no place on earth,
Where you could lay low,
Wherever you are,
I will track you down"

Finding Scum

More signalling and a joke vote on Silanah:

Silanah, on 16 July 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

Anthras, on 16 July 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

http://www.youtube.c...n&v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

for you T! I mean Cheryl

This is more my style...

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=z5NRWM3FgqA

Edit: removed the embedded video - Edit again: I can't figure out how to link the video without posting it!

Anthras, on 16 July 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

Remove Vote

Vote Silanah

I'm in that video!

Silanah, on 16 July 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

Anthras, on 16 July 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

You'll see me 36 seconds in

Are you the hot topless guy?

Another scum reference?

Anthras, on 16 July 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

Scum!!

And now signalling done, back to joke votes.

Anthras, on 16 July 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

So Shelly can hide behind his posts and Ampelas can used the videos as an excuse not to post anything..

Remove Vote

Vote Ampelas

The voting on Kaschan didn't start until Shelly and I had both put votes down on Sil. My reasoning being that I felt Anthras was acting like a symp and signalling to Sil. I think this case should have been made STRONGER when it became one of the very few quasi-reasonable for a day one lynch and INSTEAD OF IT GAINING STEAM, my vote DISSAPPEARED (game dynamic? or honest error, I don't know) and a train formed all too rapidly for Kaschan, for no real reason that I've seen. And on the BEGINNING OF THAT TRAIN WE SEE:

Anthras, Atrahal, Silanah

Since I believe Anthras is acting more like the symp, I'll lay out my vote AGAIN on:


vote Silanah

These next two are the ones that secure the trio push by claiming that their vote for Anth will likely turn up an innocent reveal because he is a symp, not because he is obviously an innocent player as I've tried, unsuccessfully, to explain. Also, a master defending a symp as strongly as I've tried to defend Anth still makes me laugh. We are all intelligent enough to dismiss this.

Fener, on 18 July 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

Ok, these are my current thoughts:

I still think Anthras is scum. Hard to say what kind. You'd think a master would be a bit lower key. However, this gets rather WIFOM now that the "If I was scum, why would I do this?" argument gets brought into it. Symp does seem more likely. The motivation is more obvious - it would explain the possible signalling, and would explain the more typically sympish behaviour, such as being more out there, stirring stuff up, lots of accusations etc.

So, the strongest candidates for who he's symping are Atrahal and Silanah. There's the train, possible signalling, and the fact that they're the two who seem most defensive of Anthras.

So looking at the three.

Silanah strikes me as least scummy of the three. His reaction was pretty level headed. He's acknowledged the case on him (and there's not that much more he can do to defend himself with since it's based on sympage). He has said he doesn't think Anthras seems scummy, but then, if he is inno, then he knows that Anthras isn't his symp, and since Anth is more like symp than master, then it's easy enough to see why he might be less inclined to call him scum (as well as the fact that he's possibly got a good reason not to say that Anth seems like he's symping him, in not wanting to be lynched). I'd still vote him, but think there is a better candidate amongst the three.

Anthras of course seems scummy, but I am leaning towards symp more than master.

Atrahal is where I intend to vote. He goes from saying the death doesn't seem to provide much info, to collecting a bunch of SLs posts and speculating on them. A bit of speculation isn't bad, but at the end of the day it's WIFOM, and it did seem to divert the thread for a little while. He is also guilty of pre-emptive defence, which always seems scummy to me:

"You can accuse me of drawing lines or lining up lynches, I don't much care"

"At least the Kaschan vote day one had some substance".

Agree or disagree with the case I feel that there is a lot more evidence of something scummy about Anthras than there was about Kaschan.

He also boils the case down to "spam signalling, which is pretty ridiculous". Imo, the signalling aspect of the case is the weakest part (also partly why I'm less sold on Sil than on Atrahal).

He also defends Anthras with the "he'd have to be rubbish scum" defence. It's not necessarily a bad argument. Indeed, it's part of why I doubt Anthras is a master - because it would be very odd play for a master. It's quite easy to see why it would be good by a symp. The signalling part could simply be wrong, or faked by Anth (another reason I'm a bit wary of that lynch). But spamming and encouraging spam (which wastes time), and making a load of accusations to get something to stick and get a lynch is pretty typical, and good, symp play (from scums point of view, they just want to make sure one of them doesn't get hit day one, which can be very arbitrary). Atrahal has seemed much more defensive of Anthras than Silanah has. The question then becomes whether a master would defend a symp. But then, there are reasons for doing so. Firstly of course, he wouldn't want to lose a team mate. As well as that, there is the benefit of being on the right side of the lynch.

So, between Atrahal, Silanah, and Anthras, I'm going to:

Remove vote
Vote Atrahal

Anthras has played the scummiest individually, but is more likely a symp. Silanah's reaction to Anthras getting heat seems less scummy than Atrahal's has been.

Fener, on 18 July 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Atrahal, on 18 July 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

What a ridiculous post. A master defending a symp? There is never a good reason for this. And it worries me to see another tunnel vision "Atrahal, Anthras, Silanah" player. pre-emptive defence is am much acknowledging a fact than it is anything else; logically it makes sense to see exactly how your post will be understood and address any concerns before hand. This is blatantly an attempt to keep the thread on a single track. Fener admits that some of my claims are possible, but lets ignore that because we're still talking about the wicked three players. Very weak argument, Fener, that makes very little sense (master defending symp, bah).

Master defending symp is one explanation. There are somewhat obvious reasons scum might do this. Firstly, they would want to avoid losing a team mate - if they can deflect, it's good for them. Secondly, defending someone they know will CF inno is not an uncommon tactic (you wouldn't have to even know he was your symp for this to work).

It's also possible that Anth is master and you are a symp defending him. This seems less likely than the relation being the other way round just judging by Anthras' play.

I am simply trying to understand why you are defending Anthras so strongly, and it seems more likely because you are scum than the explanations you provide for your insistence on Anthras' innocence.

I'm not claiming that I am certain one of you is scum. We're still early in the game, and it's remarkable how sure of themselves some people are considering that. But it definitely seems the best lynch at this stage, in terms of both information and likelihood of hitting scum.

Sorrit, on 18 July 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

X post with Ano. I will switch if I have to, but if he's a symp, like I suspect, he'll CF town anyways.

Oh hey Korv, I didn't know children knew how to play mafia

Korvalain, on 19 July 2012 - 03:07 AM, said:

Wow. Again, willfull ignorance.

Hurrdurrr I defended someone who CFed inno so I MUST be inno. If you were killer, you'd know everyone who would CF inno.

I don't even have a super boner for you, I'm just annoyed when you misinterpret very straightforward posts than push things like this that mean nothing.

My innocence is perhaps better demonstrated by my playstyle than the fact that I defended an innocent player. You're not in a closed box, everyone can read these posts. I'm done with defending myself on this. If you're that much a fool than by all means keep on keeping on, as they say.

I do hope I can get some help on the Fener Sorrit thing. Not necessarily to charge a lynch train their way, but to encourage case building. We need cases on them but also some defense by other players and on their part. Removing suspects is as important as compiling a larger list at this point.

edit: you're

This post has been edited by Atrahal: 19 July 2012 - 03:33 AM

[Fener]

Atrahal, on 19 July 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

These next two are the ones that secure the trio push by claiming that their vote for Anth will likely turn up an innocent reveal because he is a symp, not because he is obviously an innocent player as I've tried, unsuccessfully, to explain.

You are completely misrepresenting the situation in order to try and show something that isn't there. At no point did I say "we should lynch all three of these guys".

You are completely ignoring the fact that I wanted an Anthras lynch least of the three, specifically because I thought he was most likely symp and would CF inno, and you are doing it to push an agenda. I did not say "hey, Anthras is a symp, we should lynch him instead of the master". The only time I voted Anthras was because I was not confident in a valid target for his master, and thought that there was a higher chance of him being a master rather than a symp than there was of us getting his master at that point.

Lynching someone who CFs innocent does not make someone scum, defending someone who CFs innocent does not make someone innocent, and I really dislike that you are trying to push both of these ideas.

[Fener]

Atrahal, on 19 July 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

We need cases on them but also some defense by other players and on their part.

Also, the fuck is this?

You're calling for other players to defend the people you're accusing?

People should voice an opinion, but "defense" is rather stronger than that, and tends just to give the accuser ammunition.

[Fener]

I'm very tempted to vote Atrahal right now. Not just based on yesterday, but his "I'm innocent because Anthras is innocent" shit is dodgy as fuck, as is his continued misinterpretation of the thread. Gonna hold off though, because getting too tunnel-visioned is not good and there's plenty time. He definitely would've been a better lynch than Anth, and frankly, if he is scum, the Anth lynch looks like it might have worked out for him.

[Fener]

Silanah, on 19 July 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

It didn't really make much sense to me that a scum would go out of their way to protect someone they think might be their symp. Otherwise, just input on what's going on. Like I said, small ping on the scumdar, but nothing too serious.

Gives him the "he was innocent, which makes me innocent" angle, which coincidentally he seems to have immediately jumped all over. Though at this stage I'm not even sure if his connection with Anth is the scummiest thing about him. Claiming innocence because he defended someone who CF'd inno seems dodgy, as does the level to which he has misrepresented people, both today and yesterday.

[Fener]

Atrahal, on 19 July 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

[...]
we can pretty much agree that I'm almost definitely innocent. I even outlined my role previously, which probably matches up with at least a couple of the other innos' (being a talentless inno). Don;t waste your time. lets find some new angles.

You seem to be trying very hard to make people clear you. RI reveal is no basis for believing someone is innocent, it's the default claim.

[Kaschan]

I'm back and should have some time to do a thorough reread of the last few pages in a couple hours.

@Korv: Yeah I feel your pain there. The mobile forum doesn't even let you click on someone's profile to check their post history afaik.
@Atrahal: You are following down the same road Anthras did: you're saying things that seem sketchy, AND doing shit that pisses people off, so if you actually are town you are only helping scum by your actions.