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You are straw manning the shit out of everything I'm saying. I want Anthras because you are deflecting from him. I am pointing out contradictions in your reasoning, sections where you claim to be approaching the game lucidly and logically then turning around claiming you don't understand what's going on when it's laid out right before your eyes. When you claim that you don't understand the new developments in a case that has not been developed since the last time you were online and posting.
Also, you conveniently omitted every single time I commented on you subtly deflecting from Anthras to make him seem more credible and place suspicion on myself. Instead you're spending a lot of time talking about how you won't discuss signaling cases, making it seem as though that's the basis of my argument.
Mafia 89.5 Malazan Idol - just another talent show
#403
Atrahal 
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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:13 PM
Kaschan, on 18 July 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:
You are straw manning the shit out of everything I'm saying. I want Anthras because you are deflecting from him. I am pointing out contradictions in your reasoning, sections where you claim to be approaching the game lucidly and logically then turning around claiming you don't understand what's going on when it's laid out right before your eyes. When you claim that you don't understand the new developments in a case that has not been developed since the last time you were online and posting.
Also, you conveniently omitted every single time I commented on you subtly deflecting from Anthras to make him seem more credible and place suspicion on myself. Instead you're spending a lot of time talking about how you won't discuss signaling cases, making it seem as though that's the basis of my argument.
Also, you conveniently omitted every single time I commented on you subtly deflecting from Anthras to make him seem more credible and place suspicion on myself. Instead you're spending a lot of time talking about how you won't discuss signaling cases, making it seem as though that's the basis of my argument.
Anything I omitted is right there in the last post, you do not have to go far to see it. I answered what I felt needed attention. As to avoiding signalling cases, I do not avoid, I just don't bother because 1.I have already talked about signalling in my early arguments and 2. day one signalling cases are extremely weak (and most of or discussion involves day one), as I have said time and again, and I've even written about in earlier posts. You keep pushing this idea that I'm avoiding it, but you obviously don't feel like going back to find it. Wait, that can't be right, seeing as you collected most of my posts. read those maybe?
I have collected some of Anth's posts to take a closer look myself.
This post has been edited by Atrahal: 18 July 2012 - 05:13 PM
#404
Fener
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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:22 PM
Ok, these are my current thoughts:
I still think Anthras is scum. Hard to say what kind. You'd think a master would be a bit lower key. However, this gets rather WIFOM now that the "If I was scum, why would I do this?" argument gets brought into it. Symp does seem more likely. The motivation is more obvious - it would explain the possible signalling, and would explain the more typically sympish behaviour, such as being more out there, stirring stuff up, lots of accusations etc.
So, the strongest candidates for who he's symping are Atrahal and Silanah. There's the train, possible signalling, and the fact that they're the two who seem most defensive of Anthras.
So looking at the three.
Silanah strikes me as least scummy of the three. His reaction was pretty level headed. He's acknowledged the case on him (and there's not that much more he can do to defend himself with since it's based on sympage). He has said he doesn't think Anthras seems scummy, but then, if he is inno, then he knows that Anthras isn't his symp, and since Anth is more like symp than master, then it's easy enough to see why he might be less inclined to call him scum (as well as the fact that he's possibly got a good reason not to say that Anth seems like he's symping him, in not wanting to be lynched). I'd still vote him, but think there is a better candidate amongst the three.
Anthras of course seems scummy, but I am leaning towards symp more than master.
Atrahal is where I intend to vote. He goes from saying the death doesn't seem to provide much info, to collecting a bunch of SLs posts and speculating on them. A bit of speculation isn't bad, but at the end of the day it's WIFOM, and it did seem to divert the thread for a little while. He is also guilty of pre-emptive defence, which always seems scummy to me:
"You can accuse me of drawing lines or lining up lynches, I don't much care"
"At least the Kaschan vote day one had some substance".
Agree or disagree with the case I feel that there is a lot more evidence of something scummy about Anthras than there was about Kaschan.
He also boils the case down to "spam signalling, which is pretty ridiculous". Imo, the signalling aspect of the case is the weakest part (also partly why I'm less sold on Sil than on Atrahal).
He also defends Anthras with the "he'd have to be rubbish scum" defence. It's not necessarily a bad argument. Indeed, it's part of why I doubt Anthras is a master - because it would be very odd play for a master. It's quite easy to see why it would be good by a symp. The signalling part could simply be wrong, or faked by Anth (another reason I'm a bit wary of that lynch). But spamming and encouraging spam (which wastes time), and making a load of accusations to get something to stick and get a lynch is pretty typical, and good, symp play (from scums point of view, they just want to make sure one of them doesn't get hit day one, which can be very arbitrary). Atrahal has seemed much more defensive of Anthras than Silanah has. The question then becomes whether a master would defend a symp. But then, there are reasons for doing so. Firstly of course, he wouldn't want to lose a team mate. As well as that, there is the benefit of being on the right side of the lynch.
So, between Atrahal, Silanah, and Anthras, I'm going to:
Remove vote
Vote Atrahal
Anthras has played the scummiest individually, but is more likely a symp. Silanah's reaction to Anthras getting heat seems less scummy than Atrahal's has been.
I still think Anthras is scum. Hard to say what kind. You'd think a master would be a bit lower key. However, this gets rather WIFOM now that the "If I was scum, why would I do this?" argument gets brought into it. Symp does seem more likely. The motivation is more obvious - it would explain the possible signalling, and would explain the more typically sympish behaviour, such as being more out there, stirring stuff up, lots of accusations etc.
So, the strongest candidates for who he's symping are Atrahal and Silanah. There's the train, possible signalling, and the fact that they're the two who seem most defensive of Anthras.
So looking at the three.
Silanah strikes me as least scummy of the three. His reaction was pretty level headed. He's acknowledged the case on him (and there's not that much more he can do to defend himself with since it's based on sympage). He has said he doesn't think Anthras seems scummy, but then, if he is inno, then he knows that Anthras isn't his symp, and since Anth is more like symp than master, then it's easy enough to see why he might be less inclined to call him scum (as well as the fact that he's possibly got a good reason not to say that Anth seems like he's symping him, in not wanting to be lynched). I'd still vote him, but think there is a better candidate amongst the three.
Anthras of course seems scummy, but I am leaning towards symp more than master.
Atrahal is where I intend to vote. He goes from saying the death doesn't seem to provide much info, to collecting a bunch of SLs posts and speculating on them. A bit of speculation isn't bad, but at the end of the day it's WIFOM, and it did seem to divert the thread for a little while. He is also guilty of pre-emptive defence, which always seems scummy to me:
"You can accuse me of drawing lines or lining up lynches, I don't much care"
"At least the Kaschan vote day one had some substance".
Agree or disagree with the case I feel that there is a lot more evidence of something scummy about Anthras than there was about Kaschan.
He also boils the case down to "spam signalling, which is pretty ridiculous". Imo, the signalling aspect of the case is the weakest part (also partly why I'm less sold on Sil than on Atrahal).
He also defends Anthras with the "he'd have to be rubbish scum" defence. It's not necessarily a bad argument. Indeed, it's part of why I doubt Anthras is a master - because it would be very odd play for a master. It's quite easy to see why it would be good by a symp. The signalling part could simply be wrong, or faked by Anth (another reason I'm a bit wary of that lynch). But spamming and encouraging spam (which wastes time), and making a load of accusations to get something to stick and get a lynch is pretty typical, and good, symp play (from scums point of view, they just want to make sure one of them doesn't get hit day one, which can be very arbitrary). Atrahal has seemed much more defensive of Anthras than Silanah has. The question then becomes whether a master would defend a symp. But then, there are reasons for doing so. Firstly of course, he wouldn't want to lose a team mate. As well as that, there is the benefit of being on the right side of the lynch.
So, between Atrahal, Silanah, and Anthras, I'm going to:
Remove vote
Vote Atrahal
Anthras has played the scummiest individually, but is more likely a symp. Silanah's reaction to Anthras getting heat seems less scummy than Atrahal's has been.
#406
Atrahal
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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:41 PM
So I think this collection of posts accurately depict the case against Anth. If I'm missing something please feel free to bring it up.
Looks like day one signalling to me.
"Signalling cases are shit and we've never caught scum off any of them so far." -> Yes we have.
"I'm not following scum onto a train like that. They normally are careful with their posts and want to avoid day one as much as possible." -> You just contradicted yourself: if they are being careful and avoiding day 1, they wouldn't start a tenuous signaling train like you are suggesting.
"It is possible Fener or Kalse could be scum and come on late in the day but i'm doubtful. " -> Why? Why are you doubtful of this? You already know who the scum are and so know that Kalse and Fener aren't them? Please share, then!
So what we've got here is Anthras, who spent the first three pages of the game just spamming stupid videos, making absolutely no contribution to the game at all but padding up his post count, and now suddenly he is completely serious business and has the game all figured out, eager to be arrogant and chastise everyone else for having a different opinion in order to look like a well-playing townie. But to me that just reeks of scum arrogance, not paying enough attention to what they are saying because it is day 1.
Alternatively, he's a townie who just randomly assumes things, changing it up each sentence (see above), which is almost just as bad.
Vote Anthras
Briefly put, Anthras was all over the place with his accusations. He'd accuse people of things, having earlier the same things were no basis for finding scum. This inconsistency makes it seem like he wasn't really looking for things he found scummy, just slinging accusations to try and get something to stick for a lynch.
I also find his comment along the lines of "We can't lynch him [Kaschan] for that though surely?" really dodgy. It's pre-emptive distancing, and like he's trying to make it seem like other people were pushing the train more than him, and that's he's not that convinced (by his own argument mind you). He also contradicts this attitude with the level of certainty he later expresses about Kasch.
Bed now.
I agree with the Silanah direction. There is something definitely off about Anthrax, but he is more distracting and annoying than actually manipulative (which has the prerequisite of being convincing).
I apologize for not being around guys. You've heard the excuses, so I won't belabor them.
Vote Silanah
In the above group: Sheltatha suggests signalling, which I take as a joke. I very much doubt she was being serious. Ampelas claims that Anth is wrong in saying signalling cases are shit. When Anth says that scum are usually smarter than overt day one signals, Amp claims that Anth is contradicting himself, because Anth is trying to push a signalling case, or something. That whole exchange makes no godamn sense, but lets move on. Anth says that Kalse or Fener are unlikely to be scum. Ampelas pipes up, asking him how he can be sure. does he have information we don't? I am fairly sure that both Kalse and Fener had next to no posts at this point, so we could be fairly sure they weren't scum as we could not accumulate any evidence to suggest otherwise. That's how. Fener mentions how Anth made a case against Kaschan (i think it was about not being anonymous when viewing the thread), but then Anth backs off, saying we can't vote solely on that. I agree with Fener that saying such a thing after making the case may be distancing, but then maybe Anth was having some spur of the moment moral qualms about the Kaschan spat (I very much doubt this was the case). Korbas sums the whole mess up: Anth is likely an obnoxious town than a competent scum.
Hmm. You said yourself that "we cannot lynch based on this though can we?" about the lurking thing.
And you said that signalling cases were shit.
So 2/3 of those reasons are things you don't consider strong. Or maybe 1/3 if we give you a pass on the lurking since it was you who saw him. Even so, just seems a bit like you're throwing a lot of accusations and hoping that something sticks.
Vote Anthras
Don't like his play.
Must have missed the memo where my activity had a bearing on the content of what I'm saying. Nice way to dismiss and avoid talking about it though.
The swing away from Kaschan to Anthras at first looks rather suspicious but then it was Kasch himself who, after a small train had built against him, voted Anthras and then Fener caught up on thread and voted Anthras too but doesn't leave his vote there long and adds it to Kasch to try and get a lynch. So the swing away here doesn't seem particularly noteworthy.
Kasch responded very quickly after he was called out, which he explained and we can't really say much about that one way or the other people will believe him or they won't. Even though his posts were defensive they don't come across as desperate and panicky. His lynch didn't quite make it there which may have been suspicious if the players (e.g. Korv, Fener) that could be seen as protectors/deflectors hadn't switched votes when a couple of people coming on could have had him lynched. It makes me think the cases made in that direction maybe don't hold so much weight.
Anthras I don't feel easy about having read over the thread and especially reading the above exchange, 'you make an accusation against me? You're a low poster and i've been around for ages, i'll not bother to address your concerns' it comes across as arrogant and dismissive and the concern Fener raises is one that made me uneasy, especially reading over it again. It feels like Anthras made a lot of statements and raised suspicion over a lot of players and situations and yet not only did he actively try and distance himself when a vote was laid on Kasch to test what he himself said but later he seems to change his mind again when it has some kind of result. He doesn't like symp cases and in fact says they never lead to results, then he goes and makes one himself. In one post he says he has no strong feelings about anyone but is suspicious of everyone and two posts later seems to be certain that Kasch is scum. It is erratic.
I also wasn't keen on the statement that he had no problem with his own lynch if Kaschan went down next. It is not only a big leap in certainty on his part but smacks of trying too hard to sound inno.
Ampelas' No Lynch argument doesn't quite sit right either since it means less information for town, which has been covered but I think considering the high amount of spam and the number of connections and cases that were being speculated on a lynch would have undoubtedly given us more to work with.
I feel as though people are drawing sides here. We got through over 30 hours of game play without a word from Fener, he then proceeds to come on and attack me or dismiss my case. He hadn't earned the right to in my opinion. I'm not saying I believe Fener to be scum. I am saying that he could not possibly have had a good grasp on what has went by. If you think i'm scummy then vote me off.
This second batch is mostly Anth acting like a disgruntled town. But Fener brings up that oddly phrased Anth line. I thought to include it, because it is the most 'scummy' thing Anth has posted, by far. With the rest, he doesn't give a damn if he's taken out, most like because he shares a similar role that I do (that of having absolutely no role except being an inno). Anth also defends his spam for day one nonsense and encouraging gameplay. I am never against this. We've all seen this happen before, where for some reason we lynch the highest poster for no real reason aside from 'the sheer mass of posts confuse me'. And these scenarios usually tend to come up with a disappointing town lynched. Anth is laying everything out there, completely against what scum players would normally do (or even logically do). Aside from that one odd line about Kaschan, the case against Anth is founded on someone playing either obnoxiously, as a terrible scum, or because he encouraged early gameplay. I won't be voting Anth. Waste of my vote, waste of yours. Sil is a slightly better option, if only because I'm less sure she is innocent. I am half convinced our scum is Kaschan. My WIFOM, as it is usually disregarded, includes Kasch. not a big deal on its own. The day one deflection, and Kasch speedy reaction to being called out are more indications. And now his intense push for the Anth lynch. We certainly won't have enough people ready to swing away from Anth or Sil at this point, but I think I will still
vote Kaschan
I'm going to be able to check up on thread on and off most of the day, so I am willing to throw my vote on to Sil if I really have to. I hope you don't end up inno Kasch, because that would mean we're wasting each others' time.
Korbas, on 18 July 2012 - 03:11 AM, said:
Sheltatha Lore, on 16 July 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:
Anthras, on 16 July 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:
Remove Vote
Vote Silanah
I'm in that video!
Vote Silanah
I'm in that video!
Atrahal, on 16 July 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:
Believe it or not, I'm one of the shadows in the very first part of this video. I'm the hotest one lol *winky face* I'm so random! And talented of course.
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
Looks like day one signalling to me.
Ampelas, on 17 July 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:
Anthras, on 17 July 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:
Signalling cases are shit and we've never caught scum off any of them so far. I'm not following scum onto a train like that. They normally are careful with their posts and want to avoid day one as much as possible. It is possible Fener or Kalse could be scum and come on late in the day but i'm doubtful.
Sorrit, Kaschan (who was on before but didn't post), Ano amp and Korv are the ones that are most likely to harbour some scum. You cannot prove that with Kaschan but he was definitely naked and on thread earlier.
I'm voting fener for lack of posts but that was just to try and prod him into action.
Sorrit, Kaschan (who was on before but didn't post), Ano amp and Korv are the ones that are most likely to harbour some scum. You cannot prove that with Kaschan but he was definitely naked and on thread earlier.
I'm voting fener for lack of posts but that was just to try and prod him into action.
"Signalling cases are shit and we've never caught scum off any of them so far." -> Yes we have.
"I'm not following scum onto a train like that. They normally are careful with their posts and want to avoid day one as much as possible." -> You just contradicted yourself: if they are being careful and avoiding day 1, they wouldn't start a tenuous signaling train like you are suggesting.
"It is possible Fener or Kalse could be scum and come on late in the day but i'm doubtful. " -> Why? Why are you doubtful of this? You already know who the scum are and so know that Kalse and Fener aren't them? Please share, then!
So what we've got here is Anthras, who spent the first three pages of the game just spamming stupid videos, making absolutely no contribution to the game at all but padding up his post count, and now suddenly he is completely serious business and has the game all figured out, eager to be arrogant and chastise everyone else for having a different opinion in order to look like a well-playing townie. But to me that just reeks of scum arrogance, not paying enough attention to what they are saying because it is day 1.
Alternatively, he's a townie who just randomly assumes things, changing it up each sentence (see above), which is almost just as bad.
Vote Anthras
Fener, on 18 July 2012 - 02:58 AM, said:
Atrahal, on 18 July 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:
I don't know about this one. This is a whole lot of signalling on day one. We would have to be dealing with a special kind of stupid in order for someone to try signalling as blatant as you make this seem. And honestly, most of that seems like joke posts. The whole, "I'm in that video" at 36 seconds, shows topless dudes (I actually just went to watch it, i don't recommend). That was the joke, I assumed. Might be signalling, but I very much doubt it. I am interested in the Anthras scum idea, mostly because "feels scummy" isn't necessarily descriptive. Perhaps you can explain more Fener? I'm not going to overly defend either Sil or Anth, but we need a little more on these votes. At least the Kaschan vote day one had some substance, primarily from repeated deflection attempts made by Korvalain, the suspected symp. Now I'm willing to get off of Kaschan and Korval's asses, but we need some good stuff to work with. Not spam signalling, which is pretty much ridiculous if you think about it. unless that is, you think so little of our scum players as to expect them to make stupid decisions at every step.
edit: added "expect them" clarification
edit: added "expect them" clarification
Briefly put, Anthras was all over the place with his accusations. He'd accuse people of things, having earlier the same things were no basis for finding scum. This inconsistency makes it seem like he wasn't really looking for things he found scummy, just slinging accusations to try and get something to stick for a lynch.
I also find his comment along the lines of "We can't lynch him [Kaschan] for that though surely?" really dodgy. It's pre-emptive distancing, and like he's trying to make it seem like other people were pushing the train more than him, and that's he's not that convinced (by his own argument mind you). He also contradicts this attitude with the level of certainty he later expresses about Kasch.
Bed now.
I agree with the Silanah direction. There is something definitely off about Anthrax, but he is more distracting and annoying than actually manipulative (which has the prerequisite of being convincing).
I apologize for not being around guys. You've heard the excuses, so I won't belabor them.
Vote Silanah
In the above group: Sheltatha suggests signalling, which I take as a joke. I very much doubt she was being serious. Ampelas claims that Anth is wrong in saying signalling cases are shit. When Anth says that scum are usually smarter than overt day one signals, Amp claims that Anth is contradicting himself, because Anth is trying to push a signalling case, or something. That whole exchange makes no godamn sense, but lets move on. Anth says that Kalse or Fener are unlikely to be scum. Ampelas pipes up, asking him how he can be sure. does he have information we don't? I am fairly sure that both Kalse and Fener had next to no posts at this point, so we could be fairly sure they weren't scum as we could not accumulate any evidence to suggest otherwise. That's how. Fener mentions how Anth made a case against Kaschan (i think it was about not being anonymous when viewing the thread), but then Anth backs off, saying we can't vote solely on that. I agree with Fener that saying such a thing after making the case may be distancing, but then maybe Anth was having some spur of the moment moral qualms about the Kaschan spat (I very much doubt this was the case). Korbas sums the whole mess up: Anth is likely an obnoxious town than a competent scum.
Anthras, on 18 July 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:
Anomandaris, on 18 July 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:
Fener, on 17 July 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:
Anthras, on 17 July 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:
Kasch you either misunderstand me or are lying. I didn't realise at first that korv had voted for you and removed until I did a re read. My case is based in possible lurking, deflection from korv and possible signalling early on. It's day one but I think it's pretty strong for day one.
Hmm. You said yourself that "we cannot lynch based on this though can we?" about the lurking thing.
And you said that signalling cases were shit.
So 2/3 of those reasons are things you don't consider strong. Or maybe 1/3 if we give you a pass on the lurking since it was you who saw him. Even so, just seems a bit like you're throwing a lot of accusations and hoping that something sticks.
Vote Anthras
Don't like his play.
Anthras, on 17 July 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:
Fener has been here 5 minutes. So I'll take what he says with a pinch of salt. Kasch you seem worried. I have no problem withthem lynching me first. As long as you go down next.
Anthras, on 17 July 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:
Convenient. before I started posting today most people were on 5 posts. So spamming or whatever you call it got the game started. Kasch your saying I'm a symp setting up Silanah as next lynch. I'm saying you are scum.
Fener, on 17 July 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:
Anthras, on 17 July 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:
Fener has been here 5 minutes. So I'll take what he says with a pinch of salt. Kasch you seem worried. I have no problem withthem lynching me first. As long as you go down next.
Must have missed the memo where my activity had a bearing on the content of what I'm saying. Nice way to dismiss and avoid talking about it though.
Anthras, on 17 July 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:
If you turn out to be innocent then I've got no reliability left in the game. People will think of me as a symp regardless of what I say or do. so why am I putting by neck out on day one? I guess I just hate quiet days. It doesn't benefit us to keep low and not say much. That benefits scum
The swing away from Kaschan to Anthras at first looks rather suspicious but then it was Kasch himself who, after a small train had built against him, voted Anthras and then Fener caught up on thread and voted Anthras too but doesn't leave his vote there long and adds it to Kasch to try and get a lynch. So the swing away here doesn't seem particularly noteworthy.
Kasch responded very quickly after he was called out, which he explained and we can't really say much about that one way or the other people will believe him or they won't. Even though his posts were defensive they don't come across as desperate and panicky. His lynch didn't quite make it there which may have been suspicious if the players (e.g. Korv, Fener) that could be seen as protectors/deflectors hadn't switched votes when a couple of people coming on could have had him lynched. It makes me think the cases made in that direction maybe don't hold so much weight.
Anthras I don't feel easy about having read over the thread and especially reading the above exchange, 'you make an accusation against me? You're a low poster and i've been around for ages, i'll not bother to address your concerns' it comes across as arrogant and dismissive and the concern Fener raises is one that made me uneasy, especially reading over it again. It feels like Anthras made a lot of statements and raised suspicion over a lot of players and situations and yet not only did he actively try and distance himself when a vote was laid on Kasch to test what he himself said but later he seems to change his mind again when it has some kind of result. He doesn't like symp cases and in fact says they never lead to results, then he goes and makes one himself. In one post he says he has no strong feelings about anyone but is suspicious of everyone and two posts later seems to be certain that Kasch is scum. It is erratic.
I also wasn't keen on the statement that he had no problem with his own lynch if Kaschan went down next. It is not only a big leap in certainty on his part but smacks of trying too hard to sound inno.
Ampelas' No Lynch argument doesn't quite sit right either since it means less information for town, which has been covered but I think considering the high amount of spam and the number of connections and cases that were being speculated on a lynch would have undoubtedly given us more to work with.
I feel as though people are drawing sides here. We got through over 30 hours of game play without a word from Fener, he then proceeds to come on and attack me or dismiss my case. He hadn't earned the right to in my opinion. I'm not saying I believe Fener to be scum. I am saying that he could not possibly have had a good grasp on what has went by. If you think i'm scummy then vote me off.
This second batch is mostly Anth acting like a disgruntled town. But Fener brings up that oddly phrased Anth line. I thought to include it, because it is the most 'scummy' thing Anth has posted, by far. With the rest, he doesn't give a damn if he's taken out, most like because he shares a similar role that I do (that of having absolutely no role except being an inno). Anth also defends his spam for day one nonsense and encouraging gameplay. I am never against this. We've all seen this happen before, where for some reason we lynch the highest poster for no real reason aside from 'the sheer mass of posts confuse me'. And these scenarios usually tend to come up with a disappointing town lynched. Anth is laying everything out there, completely against what scum players would normally do (or even logically do). Aside from that one odd line about Kaschan, the case against Anth is founded on someone playing either obnoxiously, as a terrible scum, or because he encouraged early gameplay. I won't be voting Anth. Waste of my vote, waste of yours. Sil is a slightly better option, if only because I'm less sure she is innocent. I am half convinced our scum is Kaschan. My WIFOM, as it is usually disregarded, includes Kasch. not a big deal on its own. The day one deflection, and Kasch speedy reaction to being called out are more indications. And now his intense push for the Anth lynch. We certainly won't have enough people ready to swing away from Anth or Sil at this point, but I think I will still
vote Kaschan
I'm going to be able to check up on thread on and off most of the day, so I am willing to throw my vote on to Sil if I really have to. I hope you don't end up inno Kasch, because that would mean we're wasting each others' time.
#407
Atrahal
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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:49 PM
Fener, on 18 July 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:
Ok, these are my current thoughts:
I still think Anthras is scum. Hard to say what kind. You'd think a master would be a bit lower key. However, this gets rather WIFOM now that the "If I was scum, why would I do this?" argument gets brought into it. Symp does seem more likely. The motivation is more obvious - it would explain the possible signalling, and would explain the more typically sympish behaviour, such as being more out there, stirring stuff up, lots of accusations etc.
So, the strongest candidates for who he's symping are Atrahal and Silanah. There's the train, possible signalling, and the fact that they're the two who seem most defensive of Anthras.
So looking at the three.
Silanah strikes me as least scummy of the three. His reaction was pretty level headed. He's acknowledged the case on him (and there's not that much more he can do to defend himself with since it's based on sympage). He has said he doesn't think Anthras seems scummy, but then, if he is inno, then he knows that Anthras isn't his symp, and since Anth is more like symp than master, then it's easy enough to see why he might be less inclined to call him scum (as well as the fact that he's possibly got a good reason not to say that Anth seems like he's symping him, in not wanting to be lynched). I'd still vote him, but think there is a better candidate amongst the three.
Anthras of course seems scummy, but I am leaning towards symp more than master.
Atrahal is where I intend to vote. He goes from saying the death doesn't seem to provide much info, to collecting a bunch of SLs posts and speculating on them. A bit of speculation isn't bad, but at the end of the day it's WIFOM, and it did seem to divert the thread for a little while. He is also guilty of pre-emptive defence, which always seems scummy to me:
"You can accuse me of drawing lines or lining up lynches, I don't much care"
"At least the Kaschan vote day one had some substance".
Agree or disagree with the case I feel that there is a lot more evidence of something scummy about Anthras than there was about Kaschan.
He also boils the case down to "spam signalling, which is pretty ridiculous". Imo, the signalling aspect of the case is the weakest part (also partly why I'm less sold on Sil than on Atrahal).
He also defends Anthras with the "he'd have to be rubbish scum" defence. It's not necessarily a bad argument. Indeed, it's part of why I doubt Anthras is a master - because it would be very odd play for a master. It's quite easy to see why it would be good by a symp. The signalling part could simply be wrong, or faked by Anth (another reason I'm a bit wary of that lynch). But spamming and encouraging spam (which wastes time), and making a load of accusations to get something to stick and get a lynch is pretty typical, and good, symp play (from scums point of view, they just want to make sure one of them doesn't get hit day one, which can be very arbitrary). Atrahal has seemed much more defensive of Anthras than Silanah has. The question then becomes whether a master would defend a symp. But then, there are reasons for doing so. Firstly of course, he wouldn't want to lose a team mate. As well as that, there is the benefit of being on the right side of the lynch.
So, between Atrahal, Silanah, and Anthras, I'm going to:
Remove vote
Vote Atrahal
Anthras has played the scummiest individually, but is more likely a symp. Silanah's reaction to Anthras getting heat seems less scummy than Atrahal's has been.
I still think Anthras is scum. Hard to say what kind. You'd think a master would be a bit lower key. However, this gets rather WIFOM now that the "If I was scum, why would I do this?" argument gets brought into it. Symp does seem more likely. The motivation is more obvious - it would explain the possible signalling, and would explain the more typically sympish behaviour, such as being more out there, stirring stuff up, lots of accusations etc.
So, the strongest candidates for who he's symping are Atrahal and Silanah. There's the train, possible signalling, and the fact that they're the two who seem most defensive of Anthras.
So looking at the three.
Silanah strikes me as least scummy of the three. His reaction was pretty level headed. He's acknowledged the case on him (and there's not that much more he can do to defend himself with since it's based on sympage). He has said he doesn't think Anthras seems scummy, but then, if he is inno, then he knows that Anthras isn't his symp, and since Anth is more like symp than master, then it's easy enough to see why he might be less inclined to call him scum (as well as the fact that he's possibly got a good reason not to say that Anth seems like he's symping him, in not wanting to be lynched). I'd still vote him, but think there is a better candidate amongst the three.
Anthras of course seems scummy, but I am leaning towards symp more than master.
Atrahal is where I intend to vote. He goes from saying the death doesn't seem to provide much info, to collecting a bunch of SLs posts and speculating on them. A bit of speculation isn't bad, but at the end of the day it's WIFOM, and it did seem to divert the thread for a little while. He is also guilty of pre-emptive defence, which always seems scummy to me:
"You can accuse me of drawing lines or lining up lynches, I don't much care"
"At least the Kaschan vote day one had some substance".
Agree or disagree with the case I feel that there is a lot more evidence of something scummy about Anthras than there was about Kaschan.
He also boils the case down to "spam signalling, which is pretty ridiculous". Imo, the signalling aspect of the case is the weakest part (also partly why I'm less sold on Sil than on Atrahal).
He also defends Anthras with the "he'd have to be rubbish scum" defence. It's not necessarily a bad argument. Indeed, it's part of why I doubt Anthras is a master - because it would be very odd play for a master. It's quite easy to see why it would be good by a symp. The signalling part could simply be wrong, or faked by Anth (another reason I'm a bit wary of that lynch). But spamming and encouraging spam (which wastes time), and making a load of accusations to get something to stick and get a lynch is pretty typical, and good, symp play (from scums point of view, they just want to make sure one of them doesn't get hit day one, which can be very arbitrary). Atrahal has seemed much more defensive of Anthras than Silanah has. The question then becomes whether a master would defend a symp. But then, there are reasons for doing so. Firstly of course, he wouldn't want to lose a team mate. As well as that, there is the benefit of being on the right side of the lynch.
So, between Atrahal, Silanah, and Anthras, I'm going to:
Remove vote
Vote Atrahal
Anthras has played the scummiest individually, but is more likely a symp. Silanah's reaction to Anthras getting heat seems less scummy than Atrahal's has been.
What a ridiculous post. A master defending a symp? There is never a good reason for this. And it worries me to see another tunnel vision "Atrahal, Anthras, Silanah" player. pre-emptive defence is am much acknowledging a fact than it is anything else; logically it makes sense to see exactly how your post will be understood and address any concerns before hand. This is blatantly an attempt to keep the thread on a single track. Fener admits that some of my claims are possible, but lets ignore that because we're still talking about the wicked three players. Very weak argument, Fener, that makes very little sense (master defending symp, bah).
#408
Fener
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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:51 PM
The bit you say "makes no goddamned sense" is that Anthras' case was based on the same thing which he had earlier said was shit for making cases. This sort of inconsistency makes it seem like he's not bothered about making a case he believes in, just in trying to get an accusation to stick.
#409
Fener
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Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:03 PM
Atrahal, on 18 July 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:
What a ridiculous post. A master defending a symp? There is never a good reason for this. And it worries me to see another tunnel vision "Atrahal, Anthras, Silanah" player. pre-emptive defence is am much acknowledging a fact than it is anything else; logically it makes sense to see exactly how your post will be understood and address any concerns before hand. This is blatantly an attempt to keep the thread on a single track. Fener admits that some of my claims are possible, but lets ignore that because we're still talking about the wicked three players. Very weak argument, Fener, that makes very little sense (master defending symp, bah).
Master defending symp is one explanation. There are somewhat obvious reasons scum might do this. Firstly, they would want to avoid losing a team mate - if they can deflect, it's good for them. Secondly, defending someone they know will CF inno is not an uncommon tactic (you wouldn't have to even know he was your symp for this to work).
It's also possible that Anth is master and you are a symp defending him. This seems less likely than the relation being the other way round just judging by Anthras' play.
I am simply trying to understand why you are defending Anthras so strongly, and it seems more likely because you are scum than the explanations you provide for your insistence on Anthras' innocence.
I'm not claiming that I am certain one of you is scum. We're still early in the game, and it's remarkable how sure of themselves some people are considering that. But it definitely seems the best lynch at this stage, in terms of both information and likelihood of hitting scum.
#412
Silanah
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Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:19 PM
Karosis, on 18 July 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:
FML, I getting hammered at work (not the good way)
can't catch up - if anybody needs to talk to me, make it direct
summary appreciated
stupid job
can't catch up - if anybody needs to talk to me, make it direct
summary appreciated
stupid job
Am in the same situation, I have only had a chance to skim over new posts so far today, but if I am not mistaken, day times out in about 8 hours, so I should have plenty of time post-work to really post something. I apologize for low activity, but such is life!
#413
Fener
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Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:21 PM
Karosis, on 18 July 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:
FML, I getting hammered at work (not the good way)
can't catch up - if anybody needs to talk to me, make it direct
summary appreciated
stupid job
can't catch up - if anybody needs to talk to me, make it direct
summary appreciated
stupid job
In summary - not that much has happened.
Some spam. Some death WIFOM. Atrahal is voting Kasch for the same reasons as yesterday. Atrahal and Silanah can't see Anthras as scum (nor each other particularly, afaics). A lot of people seem to disagree with them. People have voted Silanh for being involvement with Anthras, and Anthras for being scummy. I have voted Atrahal also for his involvement with Anthras. Atrahal has voted Kaschan for the same reason as yesterday. Kaschan and Atrahal had a bit of a debate, but mostly we seem to be covering a lot of the same ground repeatedly (not aided by Atrahals apparent inability to grasp a simple case), which is a bit tiring.
#414
Korvalain
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Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:44 PM
I hate Ampelas, Atrahal, and Anthras equally.
It bothers me that Fener shares all my opinions. I'm keeping up, but struggling to form coherent sentences.
I disagree that Sil should be lynched today. I think Atrahal or Anthras would be better.
It bothers me that Fener shares all my opinions. I'm keeping up, but struggling to form coherent sentences.
I disagree that Sil should be lynched today. I think Atrahal or Anthras would be better.
#415
Atrahal
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Posted 18 July 2012 - 07:35 PM
Fener, on 18 July 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:
Karosis, on 18 July 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:
FML, I getting hammered at work (not the good way)
can't catch up - if anybody needs to talk to me, make it direct
summary appreciated
stupid job
can't catch up - if anybody needs to talk to me, make it direct
summary appreciated
stupid job
In summary - not that much has happened.
Some spam. Some death WIFOM. Atrahal is voting Kasch for the same reasons as yesterday. Atrahal and Silanah can't see Anthras as scum (nor each other particularly, afaics). A lot of people seem to disagree with them. People have voted Silanh for being involvement with Anthras, and Anthras for being scummy. I have voted Atrahal also for his involvement with Anthras. Atrahal has voted Kaschan for the same reason as yesterday. Kaschan and Atrahal had a bit of a debate, but mostly we seem to be covering a lot of the same ground repeatedly (not aided by Atrahals apparent inability to grasp a simple case), which is a bit tiring.
I recommend ignoring Fener, as he oversimplified everything that has happened. I would say my problem isn't with grasping your simple case, but that the case barely qualifies as such.
Korvalain, on 18 July 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:
I hate Ampelas, Atrahal, and Anthras equally.
It bothers me that Fener shares all my opinions. I'm keeping up, but struggling to form coherent sentences.
I disagree that Sil should be lynched today. I think Atrahal or Anthras would be better.
It bothers me that Fener shares all my opinions. I'm keeping up, but struggling to form coherent sentences.
I disagree that Sil should be lynched today. I think Atrahal or Anthras would be better.
Hate? wow that's a pretty strong feeling for something as inconsequential as mafia. please elaborate, so we can at least know why you hate. If you need someone to tell you what to do, without actually putting effort into looking through the thread and coming up with your own ideas, Fener seems to come up with random stuff all the time so I'm sure he can direct to the nearest pseudo-case.
We need more town to participate actively, else we'll keep getting sidetracked and misdirected by scum.
#416
Path-Shaper
- Mafia Modgod
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Posted 18 July 2012 - 07:39 PM
It is Day 2. 5 hours and 52 minutes remaining
12 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Anthras, Atrahal, Fener, Karosis, Kaschan, Korbas, Korvalain, Silanah, Sorrit, Spite
7 votes to lynch, 6 votes to go to night.
3 Votes for Silanah ( Sorrit, Korbas, Anthras )
1 Vote for Kaschan ( Atrahal )
1 Vote for Atrahal ( Fener )
2 Votes for Anthras ( Kaschan, Ampelas )
Players not voted: Anomandaris, Karosis, Korvalain, Silanah, Spite
---<>----
Had a very, very busy day at work today, and only now log in. I'm probably as surprised as you all are by the timer.
12 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Anthras, Atrahal, Fener, Karosis, Kaschan, Korbas, Korvalain, Silanah, Sorrit, Spite
7 votes to lynch, 6 votes to go to night.
3 Votes for Silanah ( Sorrit, Korbas, Anthras )
1 Vote for Kaschan ( Atrahal )
1 Vote for Atrahal ( Fener )
2 Votes for Anthras ( Kaschan, Ampelas )
Players not voted: Anomandaris, Karosis, Korvalain, Silanah, Spite
---<>----
Had a very, very busy day at work today, and only now log in. I'm probably as surprised as you all are by the timer.
Only someone with this much power could make this many frittatas without breaking any eggs.
#420
Anomandaris
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Posted 18 July 2012 - 08:31 PM
Right. You. Are. Anthras.
I'm just looking over the last couple of pages again, there seems to be a lot of spam for little to no reason. It is frustrating when people don't listen to you or suspect you of something Anthras but your behaviour is not exactly helping because as much as you say scum wouldn't play that way, well, maybe that's why you are, it means nothing.
Anyway, Silanah's response so far has been quite calm and it certainly doesn't feel like she's panicking in any major way. I also agree with her post about WIFOM and the benefit to town of having a lynch which Amp seems to take the opposing view on, which makes me uneasy.
Korv, Fener and Kach do seem to agree a lot but then Sil, Anthras and Athrahal seem to be in the opposite group, both are accusing the other of misreading them and going after weak cases. What other type of case do we have right now? With a no lynch yesterday and so much WIFOM all the cases are easy to criticise on both sides. Maybe this is why I still have such a strong feeling against Anthras, there are certain things he is saying that make me think he is trying to hard to seem inno though it does seem like symp behaviour as opposed to scum but I tend to dislike assuming these things.
I'm going to have some dinner and read over the last page or so again before voting.
I'm just looking over the last couple of pages again, there seems to be a lot of spam for little to no reason. It is frustrating when people don't listen to you or suspect you of something Anthras but your behaviour is not exactly helping because as much as you say scum wouldn't play that way, well, maybe that's why you are, it means nothing.
Anyway, Silanah's response so far has been quite calm and it certainly doesn't feel like she's panicking in any major way. I also agree with her post about WIFOM and the benefit to town of having a lynch which Amp seems to take the opposing view on, which makes me uneasy.
Korv, Fener and Kach do seem to agree a lot but then Sil, Anthras and Athrahal seem to be in the opposite group, both are accusing the other of misreading them and going after weak cases. What other type of case do we have right now? With a no lynch yesterday and so much WIFOM all the cases are easy to criticise on both sides. Maybe this is why I still have such a strong feeling against Anthras, there are certain things he is saying that make me think he is trying to hard to seem inno though it does seem like symp behaviour as opposed to scum but I tend to dislike assuming these things.
I'm going to have some dinner and read over the last page or so again before voting.
