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Stone Monkey you make a good point. Before I had read Tad Williams or Stephen R. Donaldson, or Stevin Erikson or George R.R. Martin I used ot hink that Weis and Hickman were the best out there, how WRONG I was.
But now that I understand there are many types of fantasy and different levels of writing.
When I pick up a Salvatore, I want action and adventure and fast paced story that is easy to follow. When I pick up Erikson or Martin I expect multiple story lines and plots within subplots and different poitns of view.
But despite all of that, I still think that the Brooks and Weis&Hickmans of the world have a place in the fantasy genre, for me it was a stepping stone towards greater works that brought me to such a place as here, cheers.
What are your thoughts on Terry Brooks?
#2 Guest_Dark Daze_*
Posted 29 June 2005 - 11:16 AM
I was only kidding about Brooks. The Shannarra books are not without their strong points: fast pace and lots of action. However, they are so cheesy, predictable, and overly simplified they are hard to recommend. They are for the young (16 probably still qualifies) or a last resort for the fantasy fan in her twenties who can find nothing else.
Anyone who arduously defends Terry Brooks needs discrediting. There is a place for light fantasy but unless there are no alternatives, there is no place for Mr. Brooks and his pulpy trash.
Anyone who arduously defends Terry Brooks needs discrediting. There is a place for light fantasy but unless there are no alternatives, there is no place for Mr. Brooks and his pulpy trash.
#3 Guest_FizbansTalking_Hat_*
Posted 20 June 2005 - 07:28 AM
quote:Originally posted by Dark Daze:
I liked the first three Shannara books. Even so, Brooks is one of the main authors giving fantasy a bad name. Along with Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman, he is one of the 3 most derivative authors in fantasy.
Also, Feist's books are of higher caliber and maybe Edding's books are as well.
You know what, I have to say this. When I pick up a Terry Brooks novel or a Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman (Dragonlance Novel) I don't exepct Erikson or Martin or Tad Williams like epic fantasy quality.
I know that Weis&Hickman have been labeled as "bubblegum fantasy genre" which is fine with me. I grew up with Weis&Hickman and it was my first real introduction to fantasy and its a nostalgic thing for me, and when I get a new Dragonlance book I don't expect realistic style epic warfare and different levels of perspective and such. I want something light and fast and fun and just easy to read.
But I understand what you guys are saying. Oh and with regard to his ripping off LOTR and Tolkien, he himself admits its a "homage" to the grand master of hobbits. Sword is indeed a rip of LOTR and you have to be blind to not get that.
But Heritage is a fun series and you do learn to love the characters. His latest work I have yet to get into as I wait for all three to be released and then pick them up.
Word/Void is probably his most mature and best quality work, and I suggest you check it out, its a fun read, and not as light as Sword of Heritage, cheers.
#4 Guest_Elvithrarith_*
Posted 29 June 2005 - 10:41 AM
*laughs*
lol guys, ofc my spelling is going to suck at 2am in the morning when i'm having problems keeping my eyes open. and when i'm annoyed i type faster - so sorry if that fact that I can't be arsed to double check my spelling annoys you.
@dark daze - you amuse me, you really do. *pats you on the head* do you really get pleasure from bitching at people who use shorthand coz its quicker? you and brynjar should get together. And i'm doing my best not to take offence from your unfounded comments about the fluency of my language skills. you really don't have a clue. for further examples of my illiterate prattlings go here
or you could just ask Morgoth who knows about the three writing competitions i won in my school eisteddfod last year, about the week at the Hay Literary Festival that i won through my prowess with writing, and he also knows that in September I'm going to Warwick to study English and German Literature. and that i average 24/25 on all pieces of written coursework i write through the medium of English. me? illiterate? go figure
@asheroth - thank you. i've expressed my opinion on the matter now, and i know that everyone is entitle to their own opinions. and it's not my spelling that sucks, its my typing
@dark daze - i agree with you about Brook's place in the world of heroic fantasy. so why are you biting my head off?
lol guys, ofc my spelling is going to suck at 2am in the morning when i'm having problems keeping my eyes open. and when i'm annoyed i type faster - so sorry if that fact that I can't be arsed to double check my spelling annoys you.
@dark daze - you amuse me, you really do. *pats you on the head* do you really get pleasure from bitching at people who use shorthand coz its quicker? you and brynjar should get together. And i'm doing my best not to take offence from your unfounded comments about the fluency of my language skills. you really don't have a clue. for further examples of my illiterate prattlings go here
or you could just ask Morgoth who knows about the three writing competitions i won in my school eisteddfod last year, about the week at the Hay Literary Festival that i won through my prowess with writing, and he also knows that in September I'm going to Warwick to study English and German Literature. and that i average 24/25 on all pieces of written coursework i write through the medium of English. me? illiterate? go figure
@asheroth - thank you. i've expressed my opinion on the matter now, and i know that everyone is entitle to their own opinions. and it's not my spelling that sucks, its my typing
@dark daze - i agree with you about Brook's place in the world of heroic fantasy. so why are you biting my head off?
#5 Guest_Dark Daze_*
Posted 19 June 2005 - 10:54 PM
I liked the first three Shannara books. Even so, Brooks is one of the main authors giving fantasy a bad name. Along with Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman, he is one of the 3 most derivative authors in fantasy.
Also, Feist's books are of higher caliber and maybe Edding's books are as well.
Also, Feist's books are of higher caliber and maybe Edding's books are as well.
#6
drinksinbars 
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Posted 21 June 2005 - 02:44 AM
i read the early ahannara books, struggled through them on recommendations, and by god i near died from it., now i like dragonlance, i even indulge in some drizzt when i want something light and airy. hell once upon a time i read feist and eddings for kicks, granted i was in primary school, but theres just something fun about light fantasy where you can revel in the fatc that the only way to get one solid and complete character is to imagine that ALL the characters are just multiple sides of ONE character.
with brooks you cant even do that, its so mind numbing its unbelievable. like i dont like donaldson, i reallyhate him in fact, but i can at leats appreciate the wya he attempts to make the story coherent. brooks is pure drivel and although he helped the genre and can churn the books out, i still cant make myself like him. the sword books were bad, but the jerle shannara, boy oh boy they stink to high heaven. i was forced to read them when i ran out of books in gran canaria. i almost had to do something just to avoid them!!!
just cause you gotta respect someone(for making money from writing) you dont have to like em.
with brooks you cant even do that, its so mind numbing its unbelievable. like i dont like donaldson, i reallyhate him in fact, but i can at leats appreciate the wya he attempts to make the story coherent. brooks is pure drivel and although he helped the genre and can churn the books out, i still cant make myself like him. the sword books were bad, but the jerle shannara, boy oh boy they stink to high heaven. i was forced to read them when i ran out of books in gran canaria. i almost had to do something just to avoid them!!!
just cause you gotta respect someone(for making money from writing) you dont have to like em.
#7
Abyss
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Posted 28 June 2005 - 10:05 AM
Elvi = Yoda = female?
Ok, there's a logic string i would never have completed unassisted.
- Abyss, gender neutral.
Ok, there's a logic string i would never have completed unassisted.
- Abyss, gender neutral.
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#8 Guest_supersuavesteve_*
Posted 29 June 2005 - 01:41 PM
Dark Daze, kudos for the ad hominem attacks on Elvi. Nice to see you can insult someone for how they say something rather than respond constructively, or even intelligently, to what they say.
Needless to say such logical fallacies gives you the appearance of a real idiot.
So to business, true it's hard to look at Brooks' work (I like to think you're noting the correct use of the apostrophe to denote possession for a name ending in s) with your intellectual head on. However I think most people can see them in a very good light depending on when they read them. For instance I read them when I was just getting into fantasy, at that time they were perfect for the mind I had then. A fast moving and easily accessible plot is more of a bonus than a hinderance. As a result I've always liked his work- admittely due to nostalgia rather than on the merits of the books themselves but that doesn't mean that people can't enjoy or that they don't have a place.
Hopefully my English is good enough so that you don't respond with a comment that could be interpreted as a racial slur.
Oh and Abyss I found it easy to tell Elvi was female. Mainly because I met her face to face when we were both in England for Uni interviews. Funnily enough she applied for English and German Lit, nice city Oxford. How I love name dropping.
Needless to say such logical fallacies gives you the appearance of a real idiot.
So to business, true it's hard to look at Brooks' work (I like to think you're noting the correct use of the apostrophe to denote possession for a name ending in s) with your intellectual head on. However I think most people can see them in a very good light depending on when they read them. For instance I read them when I was just getting into fantasy, at that time they were perfect for the mind I had then. A fast moving and easily accessible plot is more of a bonus than a hinderance. As a result I've always liked his work- admittely due to nostalgia rather than on the merits of the books themselves but that doesn't mean that people can't enjoy or that they don't have a place.
Hopefully my English is good enough so that you don't respond with a comment that could be interpreted as a racial slur.
Oh and Abyss I found it easy to tell Elvi was female. Mainly because I met her face to face when we were both in England for Uni interviews. Funnily enough she applied for English and German Lit, nice city Oxford. How I love name dropping.
#9
Folken
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Posted 27 June 2005 - 02:16 PM
Abyss Elvi's a She
<div align='center'>You must always strive to be the best, but you must never believe that you are - Juan Manuel Fangio</div>
#10 Guest_Elvithrarith_*
Posted 28 June 2005 - 02:05 PM
@abyss - it all stems from a rather wacky english lesson over a year ago. teeheeehee
@dark daze - huh?
@tGoE - accuse/pity me about what?
@folk - *huggles back*
soz about the rant people, was under exam stress. and i get rather defensive about my opinions. you might have noticed
@dark daze - huh?
@tGoE - accuse/pity me about what?
@folk - *huggles back*
soz about the rant people, was under exam stress. and i get rather defensive about my opinions. you might have noticed
#11
Folken
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Posted 25 June 2005 - 06:23 PM
who di who is?
<div align='center'>You must always strive to be the best, but you must never believe that you are - Juan Manuel Fangio</div>
#12 Guest_Reave the Just_*
Posted 28 June 2005 - 11:09 PM
can't believe there's a serious discussion on the Malazan forum about Terry Brooks.
If you're very young, then fine - it's kids stuff. but surely no one would seriously put authors like him (and the Weis and Hickman sh*te) in the same league as Erikson, Donaldson, Mielville, Kearney etc? surely to God not
Brooks, Original idead!!! oh come on you're kidding right? Tolkien must have been spinning in his grave when Sword of Shanara was released.
If you're very young, then fine - it's kids stuff. but surely no one would seriously put authors like him (and the Weis and Hickman sh*te) in the same league as Erikson, Donaldson, Mielville, Kearney etc? surely to God not
Brooks, Original idead!!! oh come on you're kidding right? Tolkien must have been spinning in his grave when Sword of Shanara was released.
#13
Abyss
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Posted 24 June 2005 - 12:09 PM
I tend to fall on the side that likes, but does not love, Brooks' Shannara stories. Yes, they tend to be by-the-numbers quests, with multiple stereotypes that are reused again and again, but i find he does create some interesting variations on those stereotypes. Elfstones was one of the first fanatsy novels i ever read, and when i went back and read sword i was dissapointed, but Wishsong wasn't bad, and the Heritage series had some fun in it. The Voyage series was weak, but entertaining.
On the other hand, I found the Word/Void series to be annoying. A handfu of good ideas submerged in whiny characters, lame plotting, and sloooooooooooooow storytelling.
- Abyss, does think Garret Jax was cool tho'.
On the other hand, I found the Word/Void series to be annoying. A handfu of good ideas submerged in whiny characters, lame plotting, and sloooooooooooooow storytelling.
- Abyss, does think Garret Jax was cool tho'.
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#14
Abyss
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Posted 27 June 2005 - 10:07 AM
quote:Originally posted by The Great and Masterful Yoda:
i dont give a damn about how much everyone on here ...so bite me.
Much anger there is in this one. Close to the dork side (s)he is.
- Abyss, jedimeister.
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#15
Asheroth
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Posted 28 June 2005 - 06:48 PM
Guys, settle down already. So Elvi likes Weis and Hickman, and Feist, and Brooks, and Goodkind. You may not like said authors. Fine. But there's no reason to act like your opinion is law. There's no reason to talk to her like she's an inferior being. You guys are intelligent, I shouldn't have to give you the 'respect other's opinions' lecture.
And Elvi, an attack on Brooks is not an attack on you. You don't need to respond as if somebody just insulted you personally. And it's true, your spelling IS terrible.
And Elvi, an attack on Brooks is not an attack on you. You don't need to respond as if somebody just insulted you personally. And it's true, your spelling IS terrible.
#16 Guest_Jay Tomio_*
Posted 20 June 2005 - 12:03 AM
quote:I liked the first three Shannara books. Even so, Brooks is one of the main authors giving fantasy a bad name. Along with Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman, he is one of the 3 most derivative authors in fantasy.
I completely agree with Dark Daze's statements, except regarding his opinion on the first 3 books
I want to add before my rant, I am well aware of Mr. Brooks's huge imapct from a publishing/industry standpoint. There is no question, he may have been the most instrumental author in establising the genre as not only a popular, but hugely profitable medium.
That said, and giving him his due, he has never been anything above an average author, most of the time IMHO a mediocre one.
The first 3 books although understandable in regarding their popularity at the time, are nothing more then a watered down, dumbed down version of Lord of the rings (not saying Tolkien was exactly complicated either). 'The Sword of Shannara' I consider somewhat of an abomination.
His best Shannara work by far IMHO was his 'Heritage' series and the prequel novel 'The First King of Shannara', which is to say they may have achieved a level slightly above mediocrity. This IMHO was Shannara's best run of books.
The following sequences (High Druid, and Voyagle of Jerle Shannara) are simply some of the worst modern fantasy books I have ever read. Brooks tried to introduce a technological element, that he apparently is not very comfortable writing about (or he simply isn't efficient at it), for more evidence on that one can read his novelization of 'The Phantom Menace' (admittedly the source material was terrible to).
Brook's Shannara series is formulaic and derivative, not only early on with the obvious Tolkien similarities, but with itself in regards to his own past books. He depends on the cliche "cool character" (Garet Jax, Trul Rokh), and all his arcs are essentially the same just change the name of the dope Ohshmoford, and his Leah companion, along with the Druid of the day. You know were going to see the Stors, the King of the Silver River, etc, etc, etc. It's in most cases mindless repetition IMHO.
As I said I think the Heritage series is his best highlighted by 'The Elf Queen of Shannara', and as mentioned I liked the prequel.
The Landover series isn't even worth talking about, it's one of the genre's worst. We can see a talented writer write a similar story (in very basic premise admittedly) with Gene Wolfe's Wizard/Knight.
Brook's best work, by substantial leaps and bounds is his Word/Void work, which contains his best single novel 'Angel Fire East'. This is actually a real solid series, one of which I may read if another came out.
Brooks, as stated before, has had a huge impact on fantasy, no question, but he written a lot of books, and hasn't seem to improved, while maintaining sizaeable commercial success, which unfortunately many have followed and they account for most of what at least just IMHO are the mindless works that proliferate the shelves.
It just seems to me that somone who has had the success Brooks has had, and the years to fine tune his craft, and the backing and I would imagine trust of a huge publisher (Del Rey) that he has all the elements needed to come out with a book whose content is above the quality of borderline average or at least different to more of a degree then all his other novels (regarding Shannara).
#17 Guest_supersuavesteve_*
Posted 29 June 2005 - 03:32 PM
heehee I'm no prince charming.
What I am is a troll, a wind-up merchant if you will.
I actually doubted you'd take the bait.
Don't bother replying. It's not like I'm coming back to this board, ever. Mainly because I've never read a fantasy novel.
Makes me wonder how you so spectacularly failed to rip me to shreds in this debate.
What I am is a troll, a wind-up merchant if you will.
I actually doubted you'd take the bait.
Don't bother replying. It's not like I'm coming back to this board, ever. Mainly because I've never read a fantasy novel.
Makes me wonder how you so spectacularly failed to rip me to shreds in this debate.
#18 Guest_Dark Daze_*
Posted 25 June 2005 - 06:20 PM
one of Brooks's more literate fans...
#19 Guest_stonerman_*
Posted 20 June 2005 - 09:50 AM
I think the heritage ones were the best and actually kept you guessing. The Voyage of the jerle shannera had one of the best premises but was terrible. I've read the second newest one and it was painful, the only un-obnoxious character was killed and the semi-interesting second storyline got 20 pages in the whole book
#20
Qorten
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Posted 21 June 2005 - 01:02 PM
God, I'm happy I never read Brooks. After reading this thread I certainly never will either. Eddings was my first encounter with fantasy, at the age of +-11/12. It was a stepstone to the more complicated fantasy books. There need to be writers such as Eddings, I guess, to attract youngsters, and get them to read the more complicated stuff too. From Weis&Hickman I only read their Sovereign Stone-trilogy. Wasn't that bad IMHO.
