[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Does anyone remember when R+L=J become a known theory? Like after what book there was enough evidence for people to start considering it? Because I know there has been almost nothing about it in the tv show, but I like filling in my friends watching the show that haven't read the books things that they are missing out on.

I'd like to ask them if they've considered anything remotely like this, but I don't wanna do it way out of line, I think the theory started after the second book, but if it was the third could someone let me know?

[Silk]

to be honest the only time I ever saw that theory was when i went to the forum. I honestly cannot see anyway in the books where this comes from. Especially as the last one seems to tell a different tale so to speak.

[Catherine]

I don't know about the books but I was at Pennsic in 2006 and was told about this theory from another SCAer. He told me the people he discussed the books with were talking about, not sure how it came about.

[QuickTidal]

I think the first thing people glommed onto was in the first book when Ned talks about Lyanna and about his promise to her, and the fact that people really couldn't see Ned cheating on Catelyn and not talking about his "mother" much...this threw Jon's parentage into question.

I can't recall when it's brought up, but Rhaegar's giving Lyanna a crown of blue roses (The Winter Crown) at the Tourney at Harrenhall...I'm not sure who's POV the flashback is in.

The theory seemed to solidify in A CLASH OF KINGS when Daenerys goes into the House Of The Undying and sees a blue rose blooming through a wall of ice, thus linking her (or her family) to both Lyanna Stark and kind of to Jon Snow as well. Even then it was a tentative link, but people ran with it, and now you will find if you disagree with someone who says that R+L=J or give another reason for these hints you are outcast as stupid. Trust me, I'm on the fence about the theory and I've been read the riot act by hardcore fans about it. LOL

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 12 June 2012 - 01:01 PM

[Ceda Cicero]

I'll never understand how people don't jump to this conclusion from book one. A careful reread sees evidence piling up even there.

-What did Ned promise Lyanna?
-Why does Ned, when he's thinking of all his children in the black cells, think of everyone but Jon?

There's plenty more you'll find on a careful reread of the first book. And yeah, the second book sees the punches rolling in. For me the blue rose in the Wall in the House of the Undying (the same blue rose we were bantering about in another thread) is what seals it. There is no other character in the series with whom the blue/winter roses are associated but Lyanna. No one.

I'm willing to make room for the possibility (and I think it's a remote one) that R+L=J is a big red herring and that GRRM has been fucking with us all from the get-go. (Though personally, I think all the other "hints" to Jon's parentage

Spoiler

(like the bit of info we get in the Davos chapter in ADwD)

are the real red herrings. ) One thing I really don't get though is how there are people who've read through book two and haven't at least considered it...

This post has been edited by Ceda Cicero: 12 June 2012 - 03:46 PM

[QuickTidal]

Ceda Cicero, on 12 June 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

I'll never understand how people don't jump to this conclusion from book one. A careful reread sees evidence piling up even there.

-What did Ned promise Lyanna?
-Why does Ned, when he's thinking of all his children in the black cells, think of everyone but Jon?

There's plenty more you'll find on a careful reread of the first book. And yeah, the second book sees the punches rolling in. For me the blue rose in the Wall in the House of the Undying (the same blue rose we were bantering about in another thread) is what seals it. There is no other character in the series with whom the blue/winter roses are associated but Lyanna. No one.

I'm willing to make room for the possibility (and I think it's a remote one) that R+L=J is a big red herring and that GRRM has been fucking with us all from the get-go. (Though personally, I think all the other "hints" to Jon's parentage

Spoiler

(like the bit of info we get in the Davos chapter in ADwD)

are the real red herrings. ) One thing I really don't get though is how there are people who've read through book two and haven't at least considered it...

I'm still holding out slim hope that Jon is actually related to Arthur Dayne.

[Ceda Cicero]

QuickTidal, on 12 June 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Ceda Cicero, on 12 June 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

I'll never understand how people don't jump to this conclusion from book one. A careful reread sees evidence piling up even there.

-What did Ned promise Lyanna?
-Why does Ned, when he's thinking of all his children in the black cells, think of everyone but Jon?

There's plenty more you'll find on a careful reread of the first book. And yeah, the second book sees the punches rolling in. For me the blue rose in the Wall in the House of the Undying (the same blue rose we were bantering about in another thread) is what seals it. There is no other character in the series with whom the blue/winter roses are associated but Lyanna. No one.

I'm willing to make room for the possibility (and I think it's a remote one) that R+L=J is a big red herring and that GRRM has been fucking with us all from the get-go. (Though personally, I think all the other "hints" to Jon's parentage

Spoiler

(like the bit of info we get in the Davos chapter in ADwD)

are the real red herrings. ) One thing I really don't get though is how there are people who've read through book two and haven't at least considered it...

I'm still holding out slim hope that Jon is actually related to Arthur Dayne.

I'm holding out slim hope that I'm related to Arthur Dayne. Dude was badass.

[D'rek]

Ceda Cicero, on 12 June 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

There's plenty more you'll find on a careful reread of the first book. And yeah, the second book sees the punches rolling in. For me the blue rose in the Wall in the House of the Undying (the same blue rose we were bantering about in another thread) is what seals it. There is no other character in the series with whom the blue/winter roses are associated but Lyanna. No one.

If you are arguing that the "blue rose blooming in the wall" that daenarys sees is repsentative of Jon, then in that case the blue rose must be associated with at least one character other than Lyanna - Jon. Otherwise you have to interpret it as zombie-Lyanna breaking through the Wall

[Terez]

Yeah, this is basically the only ASOIAF theory I really thought of on my own; it was that obvious to me (and obviously to many others as well). However, there are not many hints at all in the show so far; most of the hints in the books have been entirely cut from the show. I'm hoping we'll get a hint next season with the story of the Tourney at Harrenhal.

[Brujah]

Spoiler

Some of this theory is derived from when Ned is thinking back to what is called The Tower of Joy scene.

http://awoiaf.wester...hp/Tower_of_Joy

I can also remember this evolving on other forums until we get R+L=J.


Some of it is deduced from when Ned tells Jon, right as they part ways when Jon leaves for the Wall, that "You are a Stark. You may not have my name, but you have my blood." This is where we get that he may not get his stark blood from ned, but from possibly llyanna. There's also the story of the swapping of babies, just like what happens to Aegon, who is supposedly killed. I'ts rumored that Jon isn't Ned's at all, but Llyannas, and he took blame for it after Llyanna killed herself.

So here is a basis for the rumors.

This post has been edited by Brujah: 13 June 2012 - 04:18 PM

[Brujah]

Although I always thought that Jon could just as easily be a Dayne instead.

[worry]

Yah, I think it's pretty clear Howland Reed is being held back until the TRUTH needs to come out. He's the one it's gotta come from.

[Brujah]

Yeah, so many possibilities.

Spoiler

I mean we always get the wording when talking or describing Ned as the type of guy who would NEVER do that(have a child outside of marriage). So perhaps he never did. He could of just made it all up and took Llyanna's baby.

Another one is that Ned really did have a child with the Dayne Lady(or someone else) and Jons mother is a Dayne, but some say it's more likely that if Ned did father a bastard, that for some reason he switched babies. I'm trying to get the basis for that one, but it was founded in "somewhat" text. Supposedly there was the possibility Ned let someone else take his bastard child, and he took Llyannas, etc...So many variations.

In fact Im not sure how old Darkstar is, but its rumored somewhere that Darkstar is Ned's real bastard child, whereas Jon was R+L.

Crazy.

This post has been edited by Brujah: 13 June 2012 - 04:19 PM

[MTS]

Brujah, I would advise you to spoiler that enormous ADWD spoiler you have there in post #10.

[Brujah]

OK thank you.

[Silk]

Still don't see it in the books how anyone can be 100% certain that this is the case..... stranger things have happened in worlds where honorable men do dishonorable things.... and if people like looking into things in the books and jumping to conclusions ... well hows about when Rob Stark dissed his proposed marriage that led to him taking another wife and the red wedding occuring...

[Morgoth]

You obviously can't be a 100% certain, but there are some substansial hints to be found.