[MTS]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 13 June 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

MTS, on 13 June 2012 - 03:44 AM, said:

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 13 June 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

RE Dassem and Temper

Spoiler

Yes like I said im playingdevils advocate really as I honestly dont believe that it can be as clear cut where we can pin point it to a year if you see what I mean. Educated guesses are still speculation

Well duh, no one here is suggesting it's clear-cut fact, as there are still a couple of holes in the story and a few assumptions are made, but it's probably as close to knowing as we're ever gonna get.

As for the OST stuff, I agree with Sinisdar. As for K'rul's conversation with Envy in MoI,

Spoiler

you could possibly explain that as K'rul being less familiar with the modern Seguleh than he indicates. He has only come back into the world recently, and considering there are pickled Seguleh in the basement of his temple, he may be more familiar with them as they were under the Tyrant than when they became isolationist, thus the discrepancy there.

Its hardly a 'well duh' moment. If you scroll up Apts comment claims it happened in the last couple of decades which is speculation educated guess not fact. Simply trying o differentiate for the OP the difference between forum educated guess work and actual stated knowledge for the book. As ive said up thread we get alot of our info from throwaway lines which is what makes the series so interesting yet information from earlier books can change.

OST

Spoiler

And now we play the game of casting aspersions on what were actually told to wiggle around previous throwaway lines. This is the danger I was speaking of. Krul apparently vanished into choas millenia ago and the Seguleh are only 3000 years old (or is that before the dawn of humanity, as according to the Miner?) so Krul should have no knowledge of the Seguleh as a people at all. Even if we ignore that he still has enough of an idea and enough information of the number and rank of the force the First would send against a foe.

As I said these Chainings probably happened along the timescale others have mentioned and that were all aware of but it not as clear cut as some are making it here with the accuracy of nailing it down to one year.

EDIT- weve become way off topic in regards to the OP. Id say RAFO for a better picture of the Chainings

The 'well duh' was about it being educated guesswork and not established fact, not about the event itself. I think everybody can see that we haven't fully proved it, nor can we with the evidence we have.

As for the second:

Spoiler

Yes, K'rul apparently vanished into millenia ages ago, but don't forget he was worshiped in Darujhistan for a while (thus the temple) - that would breed some local awareness, if a little outdated by the time the series starts.

[tiam]

MTS, on 13 June 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 13 June 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

MTS, on 13 June 2012 - 03:44 AM, said:

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 13 June 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

RE Dassem and Temper

Spoiler

Yes like I said im playingdevils advocate really as I honestly dont believe that it can be as clear cut where we can pin point it to a year if you see what I mean. Educated guesses are still speculation

Well duh, no one here is suggesting it's clear-cut fact, as there are still a couple of holes in the story and a few assumptions are made, but it's probably as close to knowing as we're ever gonna get.

As for the OST stuff, I agree with Sinisdar. As for K'rul's conversation with Envy in MoI,

Spoiler

you could possibly explain that as K'rul being less familiar with the modern Seguleh than he indicates. He has only come back into the world recently, and considering there are pickled Seguleh in the basement of his temple, he may be more familiar with them as they were under the Tyrant than when they became isolationist, thus the discrepancy there.

Its hardly a 'well duh' moment. If you scroll up Apts comment claims it happened in the last couple of decades which is speculation educated guess not fact. Simply trying o differentiate for the OP the difference between forum educated guess work and actual stated knowledge for the book. As ive said up thread we get alot of our info from throwaway lines which is what makes the series so interesting yet information from earlier books can change.

OST

Spoiler

And now we play the game of casting aspersions on what were actually told to wiggle around previous throwaway lines. This is the danger I was speaking of. Krul apparently vanished into choas millenia ago and the Seguleh are only 3000 years old (or is that before the dawn of humanity, as according to the Miner?) so Krul should have no knowledge of the Seguleh as a people at all. Even if we ignore that he still has enough of an idea and enough information of the number and rank of the force the First would send against a foe.

As I said these Chainings probably happened along the timescale others have mentioned and that were all aware of but it not as clear cut as some are making it here with the accuracy of nailing it down to one year.

EDIT- weve become way off topic in regards to the OP. Id say RAFO for a better picture of the Chainings

The 'well duh' was about it being educated guesswork and not established fact, not about the event itself. I think everybody can see that we haven't fully proved it, nor can we with the evidence we have.

As for the second:

Spoiler

Yes, K'rul apparently vanished into millenia ages ago, but don't forget he was worshiped in Darujhistan for a while (thus the temple) - that would breed some local awareness, if a little outdated by the time the series starts.

Yes I really hope Blood and Bone covers it and I expect it might, given its location (almost forgot were only on the HOC forum)

OST

Spoiler

Yes he was worshipped but he has has been gone from this world for millenia and is still aware of the Seguleh ranks, motivations of the First etc which should be impossible. You see what im getting with older information being retconned, for lack of a better phrase, to fit in with more modern books and I really think that section with Envy that weve all, esp. me, placed alot of weight on in the past shouldnt be taken as fact.

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 13 June 2012 - 10:25 AM

[D'rek]

Tiam, you're making a lot of mistakes that are clouding the issue for you...

Spoiler

Believing there is only 2 years between MoI and OST? I think you're mixing up books there...

The Seguleh only 3000 years old? Darujhistan is said to be that old, but I don't think that date is applied to the Seguleh

[tiam]

D, on 13 June 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

Tiam, you're making a lot of mistakes that are clouding the issue for you...

Spoiler

Believing there is only 2 years between MoI and OST? I think you're mixing up books there...

The Seguleh only 3000 years old? Darujhistan is said to be that old, but I don't think that date is applied to the Seguleh

There not mistakes but I can completely see why you think they are

Spoiler

its actually stated in the prologue to OST that there has only been 2 years between MOI and OST. Its stated that the Moon landed in the Rivan sea two years ago. If you dig up the OST threads and look at a (I think Wertheads) thread titled 'ICE messes up the timeline again' youll see how its actually stated. Before the book came out I was telling people how there was only year between MOI and TTH, to which people seemed to find strange and which makes no sense because of Harllo and Murillio becoming really old in the space of 2 years etc.

You can see why ICE did it so it fits before TCG and doesnt throw the whole timeline out of wack but that doesnt change the fact that its pretty much stated. There is also a passage in TTH that states that Silanah has been on the roof of the tower at Black Coral, completely motionless, for just under a year.

RE the Seguleh- The city is only 3000 year old and is the centre of the Tyrants power. Why would a Tyrant army exist before the actual Tyrant? Also, as ive said in the OST forum, they changed the D'stan date to be 2000 years since the last Tyrant, thus allowing D'stan to be older. There are so many probles now with the Seguleh and D'stan dates that it really is up in the air. Apparently the Miner fought the Eldrii yet had his entire lower half shattered by Raest and has been sat in the underground caves since before Raests imprisonment. This was before the very rise of humanity.

Was it ever explained how both the Torrud Cabal and the Seguleh both have their names in the language of the 7cities HFE? If you discount the Miner then it makes sense that D'stan is of a similar age to the HFE and the D'satn led Genebackan confedaracy might have been a holdover from them, with the Seguleh being an elite HFE army as is specualted either on here or in RG by Samar Dev.

Heres the thread with all the OST inconsistencies and methods of us all, you included, trying to shoehorn them into a timeline.

http://forum.malazan...opic=23212&st=0

As I said I can see why you think im making mistakes bt there not really

We have have gone off topic so should maybe transfer to thread ive linked?

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 13 June 2012 - 10:00 PM

[Fiddler]

Uhm here's a funny observation to further murk the waters.


The Fallen One isn't the only thing chained in the novels.

Yup. Totally isn't.

Remember

Spoiler

The Otataral Dragon for one. There are also hints and allegations of the Tiste Andii, under Rakes' orders chaining the rest of the Elient inside their warren.