[Spite]

Galain, on 09 June 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

Yeah, that was a pretty mediocre defense in the face of a CL practically outright stating Telas' innocence.



I'll hold off plopping down a vote for now, however, as I'm not sure we've quite heard from everyone, we're in the middle of a weekend freeze with 24 hours on the clock, and I'd rather we didn't rush to night just because we're *mostly* agreed on the course of action. Time can reveal other factors we hadn't considered, and I'd rather play with time on our side than not.



Ah, actually, I think I *may* have caught Spite in a lie. Muahahah.


Here we have this quote:

Spite, on 09 June 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

Also, if you don't believe Im not BM, I want to say that i was offered another item from the cache and picked the body armor (night 3). I was attacked last night, and I lost that BP. This leads me to believe that BM tried to kill me and frame Telas, but he hit my BP and I was guarded

Now, as anyone who has received one of these gifts knows, you cannot use the items the same night you acquire them. So where Spite says he picked the body armour night 3, then says he was attacked last night (also "night 3"), and lost that BP...the math doesn't stack, does it? An easy mistake to make, of course, but also stood out to me.

BP is passive

[Anomandaris]

I'm back home now, just checking in but will have time to read up soon.

[Rashan]

Spite, on 09 June 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

BP is passive

That doesn't automatically make it available the night you get it.... I like Galain's argument, and if you turn out to be a townie or thug when you die, then we'll know to have a look in Galain's direction!

[Anomandaris]

Just caught up. Not much new has happened I don't guess aside from a CL basically claiming Telas has been recruited. I'm definitely keeping my vote on spite and hoping that Galain actually did catch him in a dirty lie right there.

[Telas]

Spite, on 09 June 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

Also, if you don't believe Im not BM, I want to say that i was offered another item from the cache and picked the body armor (night 3). I was attacked last night, and I lost that BP. This leads me to believe that BM tried to kill me and frame Telas, but he hit my BP and I was guarded

As much as I would like to believe Spite (after working together on something I feel an affinity for him, and I was hoping we could have continued it for longer), I have to say that I don't think getting attacked and losing your BP automatically guards you. That doesn't really match up.

Moreover, I think someone postulated earlier that not being on the winning lynch train grants you the cache of weapons, and I'm fairly certain that Spite was on the Korvalain train yesterday.


There was also something funny in something Emurlahn said. I'll just check what it is.

[Telas]

This was it - why couldn't you use your gun on day 2 Emur? Or night 2? And why did you decide to shoot Eloth? You never explained that.

Emurlahn, on 09 June 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

I'm around, saw this whilst catching up. It was Atrahal because of letting day one go without a lynch. I got my gun but couldn't use it day two, I had to wait until day three. IF Eloth had perished by then I would've vigged Atrahal. I hate it when a day goes without a lynch especially in cult games. It seems we were of the same mind back then. I'm going to have a good read through the game to catch up whilst the other half is in the bath

And then there's this post which also feels a little fishy - in the sense that Emur's almost fishing for CL names. I know I'm sounding paranoid, but if the Bat can recruit a follower (I'm not saying he can, or that it's even likely), then Emur's almost giving me that vibe.

Emurlahn, on 09 June 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

Korbas, on 08 June 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

The ability to hide. Each time we catch him, it's a COMPLETE restart the next day. We have to look at every single person again, it doesn't matter if they've been cleared or not. Now the only persons we can check off are known cult leaders, of which there are none, and Liosan. But next life for batman, even Liosan has to be put back on the list. Its the perfect defense. No need for a BP.

What did I miss? Why is Liosan PI'd? Also do we not know of another CL? I'm not going to shout it out but wasn't there enough information earlier to reason it out?

Nothing to act on now - but something else I thought I'd point out in case it's needed in the future. I would like Emur to answer the questions at the top though.

[Atrahal]

I guess I got lucky then *neener neener*

[Omtose]

Atrahal, on 09 June 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

I guess I got lucky then *neener neener*

Got lucky?

[Telas]

Omtose, on 09 June 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

Atrahal, on 09 June 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

I guess I got lucky then *neener neener*

Got lucky?

He's talking about Emur's quote above, where Emur said he was going to kill Atrahal but went with Eloth instead.

[Karosis]

OK, a couple of thoughts:

- I don't see any reason why the Batman would target Spite, since there is no reason to believe that he is a CL. Doesn't really make any sense for him to waste a night going after someone like that, even if he's trying a frame job (town might waste a day, but he wastes a day as well so it evens out).

- If it turns out that this was a frame job, then my suspicion falls on Omtose. I went and checked back and he was the one who brought up this line of enquiry in the first place (see below):

Omtose, on 08 June 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

OK I have a thought. Did you get beaten up last night Galain?

[Omtose]

Karosis, on 10 June 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

OK, a couple of thoughts:

- I don't see any reason why the Batman would target Spite, since there is no reason to believe that he is a CL. Doesn't really make any sense for him to waste a night going after someone like that, even if he's trying a frame job (town might waste a day, but he wastes a day as well so it evens out).

- If it turns out that this was a frame job, then my suspicion falls on Omtose. I went and checked back and he was the one who brought up this line of enquiry in the first place (see below):

Omtose, on 08 June 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

OK I have a thought. Did you get beaten up last night Galain?

Frame job? Are YOU the batman? No, I'm just looking at what we knew was supposed to happen. We don't think that the batman went after Spite, the theory is that he may have targetted Telas and Spite as a successor.

All we know is that Galain was supposed to get beaten up last night. But he didn't. So since Telas or Spite say they didn't change their bat targets, and Galain says he didn't lose his armor, SOMETHING happened. So either one of the three of them are lying, OR someone healed Galain or guarded either Telas or Spite. It is pretty well agreed that we need to take out BM, so I'd think that if someone interefered it would only make sense for them to speak up.

Fixed: Telas and Spite should have read: Telas OR Spite.

This post has been edited by Omtose: 10 June 2012 - 12:42 AM

[Galain]

Spite, on 09 June 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

Galain, on 09 June 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

Yeah, that was a pretty mediocre defense in the face of a CL practically outright stating Telas' innocence.



I'll hold off plopping down a vote for now, however, as I'm not sure we've quite heard from everyone, we're in the middle of a weekend freeze with 24 hours on the clock, and I'd rather we didn't rush to night just because we're *mostly* agreed on the course of action. Time can reveal other factors we hadn't considered, and I'd rather play with time on our side than not.



Ah, actually, I think I *may* have caught Spite in a lie. Muahahah.


Here we have this quote:

Spite, on 09 June 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

Also, if you don't believe Im not BM, I want to say that i was offered another item from the cache and picked the body armor (night 3). I was attacked last night, and I lost that BP. This leads me to believe that BM tried to kill me and frame Telas, but he hit my BP and I was guarded

Now, as anyone who has received one of these gifts knows, you cannot use the items the same night you acquire them. So where Spite says he picked the body armour night 3, then says he was attacked last night (also "night 3"), and lost that BP...the math doesn't stack, does it? An easy mistake to make, of course, but also stood out to me.

BP is passive

That's a kinda of tangential point. I see where you're coming from, I really do, but as far as my PMs on the subject read, it doesn't exempt the BP-vest from the "next phase only" restriction. It is possible that you're right on that one (or that there was a mix-up in the resolution that forgot that clause?) but I'm not seeing it as likely. Hell, I got told that if I pick the gun on day 2 (because, apparently, that's *technically* when I would have chosen it - I didn't, btw, I picked the knife -) that it would have been usable on day three...which it sounds like Emur got told as well:

Emurlahn, on 09 June 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

I'm around, saw this whilst catching up. It was Atrahal because of letting day one go without a lynch. I got my gun but couldn't use it day two, I had to wait until day three. IF Eloth had perished by then I would've vigged Atrahal. I hate it when a day goes without a lynch especially in cult games. It seems we were of the same mind back then. I'm going to have a good read through the game to catch up whilst the other half is in the bath

So, that certainly makes me think that you're wrong about the BP (though it does establish a discrepancy in the time-delay for different items, to your credit).

Moreover, @Telas:

Telas, on 09 June 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Spite, on 09 June 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

Also, if you don't believe Im not BM, I want to say that i was offered another item from the cache and picked the body armor (night 3). I was attacked last night, and I lost that BP. This leads me to believe that BM tried to kill me and frame Telas, but he hit my BP and I was guarded

As much as I would like to believe Spite (after working together on something I feel an affinity for him, and I was hoping we could have continued it for longer), I have to say that I don't think getting attacked and losing your BP automatically guards you. That doesn't really match up.

Moreover, I think someone postulated earlier that not being on the winning lynch train grants you the cache of weapons, and I'm fairly certain that Spite was on the Korvalain train yesterday.


There was also something funny in something Emurlahn said. I'll just check what it is.

If we're covering all bases here, getting attacked and losing his Vest WOULD have guarded Spite. I know this because if I'd tried to use my knives last night and you both had tried to beat me over the head, I wouldn't have been able to use both the BP and the knives, you see? So if Spite was getting attacked the passive BP would theoretically have engaged and therefore cancelled his bat.


So this order of events makes sense BUT!

Path-Shaper, on 05 June 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

I am nearly done resolving (triple checking to make sure all the actions and stuff work out properly)

One thing I didn't drop in the OP, but will be added there soon:

actions are resolved in the following order :
Guard- Heal-Find-kill-recruit.

-ment

Kill is the second-to-last action on the resolution order. So by this logic, whereas if I had an order in to use my knives and I was double-batted, my BP would be activated FIRST and get used up, cancelling my knife-usage later in the night, for Spite, his GUARD order would have resolved first along with Telas (triggering my BP in the process) and then LATER he would have been killed and his vest would NOT have activated and he would have died.

Unless PS screwed up, OR PS' is arguing that seeing as the bat operates first, if you use the bat it isn't interfered with by the vest because the vest happens after in which case you can use two items at once? MENT: CAN WE POSSIBLY GET SOME CLARIFICATION ON THIS?



See...this is why I say to wait rather than just rush-lynch. *sigh*

If it turns out that Spite was in fact attacked...well, fuck. Then we're back to stage one, because...no, wait. That's not right. If the attack on Spite didn't affect his guard, MY BP would have still taken a hit! So the order of operations means that Spite is definitely lying, because he wouldn't have been guarded by a kill order that resolves AFTER his guard order.



Case solved, Spite is lying, Spite is the Batman.

[Korbas]

Tired as fuck. I would like to lynch Spite now, I see no other option happening today. Might as well get day/night over and start fresh with a new batchase on monday.

Sleep.

And Brujah, Is ee you talking in your damned spoiler heaven! I will crush you. Even if I misalted you.

[Galain]

Yeah, I don't really see much point in waiting any further, honestly, but even if we lynch now all it will do is draw out night until the end of the weekend freeze. I'll place my vote down this evening after dinner, I think.

[Galain]

And also, bear in mind that if we do lynch Spite and she is the Batman, night will not start until a successor has been nominated and notified, so if it's a player not on over the freeze then we get nothing from lynching now.

[Korbas]

Ment said he would resolve night, didn't he? But true on the successor thing

[Galain]

Path-Shaper, on 08 June 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

resume 8 AM EST, b4 i'm off to work

how much time will depend on when this day started (i'll let you know once I get home, inn about 5 hours)

if there's a lynch over weeknd, there will be night, and if we start a new day, when clock resumes there'll be 32 h left.

-ment

Hrm, normally night just stretches until the end of the freeze, as it's not necessarily the case that all people with NAs have submitted a provo and it's unfair to resolve like normal because of people's RL schedules. I think Ment just means it like he says: "IF" we start a new day, as in if all NAs are in, he will resolve, then we'll be on day five but not lose any time, whereas if we just go to night, without all the actions, he will just leave the clock frozen on night until Monday morning his time when Day 5 will start with 32 hours on the clock (possibly after 4 hours for night).


So it would presumably depend on whether our night actioners have all submitted provisionals or not.

[Telas]

@ Galain

I checked this with Ment ages ago - using up the BP does NOT interfere with your other actions. Therefore, if for example I had a knife and a BP, and someone attacks me, my BP would be used up but my knife action would still go through. So no, it does not technically guard you and Spite is wrong.

Your example of yourself is silly by the way. Of course you would not be able to use your knife action, but NOT because you would have lost your BP, but because at least one of us was targetting you with a guard


Also, from what I know, every item in the cache is unusable until the next night phase, EXCEPT for the gun, which can be used in the in the immediate day phase. Which is why I don't get why Emur (and now you Galain) are saying that guns had to wait a day phase and a night phase before being usable the following day phase after that.

[Galain]

Telas, on 10 June 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

@ Galain

I checked this with Ment ages ago - using up the BP does NOT interfere with your other actions. Therefore, if for example I had a knife and a BP, and someone attacks me, my BP would be used up but my knife action would still go through. So no, it does not technically guard you and Spite is wrong.

Your example of yourself is silly by the way. Of course you would not be able to use your knife action, but NOT because you would have lost your BP, but because at least one of us was targetting you with a guard


Also, from what I know, every item in the cache is unusable until the next night phase, EXCEPT for the gun, which can be used in the in the immediate day phase. Which is why I don't get why Emur (and now you Galain) are saying that guns had to wait a day phase and a night phase before being usable the following day phase after that.

Kind of beside the point at this stage, seeing as the flaw in Spite's logic is the order of operations - you both would still have hit me with bats, which is a kill. Then later, Spite would have been hit with a kill order, and his BP would have been used up - this should not have interfered with his *GUARD* action, as it resolves first, even if it DID result in him being guarded.


And I disagree over the case of my self-example, at least in terms of certainty - two bats is a kill, not a guard, aren't they? Then why does my double-BP getting used up (which means it HAS to be both of you) result in me being guarded AS WELL. The way it read to me when I queried PS was that my BP getting used up would prevent me from using my knife (lending credence to Spite's claim, no? EXCEPT the order of actions thing).

PS specifically told me that the gun, if picked at the end of Night Two, would not be usable straight away, and that I would have to wait until day 3 to use it.



...I'm sensing some mod problems here, honestly.

[Galain]

Or possibly just us reading slightly different bits of info.



I also confirmed with Ment that the BP was passive and did not require activation. I've ALSO confirmed with Ment that two bats are a KILL and NOT both a guard AND a kill. I've CONFIRMED that. BUT I also confirmed that if my body armour breaks I can't use other actions. The point you've heard is that the BP is passive and therefore does not count towards your choice-of-action-limit.


Just for clarity.