[dickiedan]

I am only 300 pages or so into crippled god and i just can't seem to recall why the shake are trying to stop the tiste liosan. What is the ultimate threat they pose?

[worry]

Read and find out.

[Tattersail_]

Yeah, finish the book and then come back to this thread if you're still unsure.

[dickiedan]

 Tattersail, on 15 May 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

Yeah, finish the book and then come back to this thread if you're still unsure.

I am still a little confused:


The Liosan. Why were they trying to take over? was there some prophecy or some historic fact i missed? did they feel they were superior like the FA did? How and why did they get locked in light fall in the 1st place?

[Khellendros]

 dickiedan, on 02 June 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

 Tattersail, on 15 May 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

Yeah, finish the book and then come back to this thread if you're still unsure.

I am still a little confused:


The Liosan. Why were they trying to take over? was there some prophecy or some historic fact i missed? did they feel they were superior like the FA did? How and why did they get locked in light fall in the 1st place?

Why were they trying to take over? Because the Liosan and Andii tend to be bear millennia-old animosity towards each other. The Liosan saw an opportunity to conquer Kharkanas and tried to take it.

The Liosan (though not all of them) do seem to tend to exhibit an arrogant superiority akin to the Assail.

They aren't locked into Lightfall. Lightfall is the border between the worlds of Kurald Galain (where Kharkanas is) and Kurald Liosan (where the Liosan army is based). Lightfall appears to be a place where the fabric between the two worlds has thinned, allowing people from one side to cross over into the other.

[dickiedan]

 Khellendros, on 02 June 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

 dickiedan, on 02 June 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

 Tattersail, on 15 May 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

Yeah, finish the book and then come back to this thread if you're still unsure.

I am still a little confused:


The Liosan. Why were they trying to take over? was there some prophecy or some historic fact i missed? did they feel they were superior like the FA did? How and why did they get locked in light fall in the 1st place?

Why were they trying to take over? Because the Liosan and Andii tend to be bear millennia-old animosity towards each other. The Liosan saw an opportunity to conquer Kharkanas and tried to take it.

The Liosan (though not all of them) do seem to tend to exhibit an arrogant superiority akin to the Assail.

They aren't locked into Lightfall. Lightfall is the border between the worlds of Kurald Galain (where Kharkanas is) and Kurald Liosan (where the Liosan army is based). Lightfall appears to be a place where the fabric between the two worlds has thinned, allowing people from one side to cross over into the other.

Seems to me like Kharkanas has been empty for a really long time, was it juts bad luck for the Liosan that the shake showed up the moment they decided to invade?

[Khellendros]

 dickiedan, on 02 June 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

 Khellendros, on 02 June 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

 dickiedan, on 02 June 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

 Tattersail, on 15 May 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

Yeah, finish the book and then come back to this thread if you're still unsure.

I am still a little confused:


The Liosan. Why were they trying to take over? was there some prophecy or some historic fact i missed? did they feel they were superior like the FA did? How and why did they get locked in light fall in the 1st place?

Why were they trying to take over? Because the Liosan and Andii tend to be bear millennia-old animosity towards each other. The Liosan saw an opportunity to conquer Kharkanas and tried to take it.

The Liosan (though not all of them) do seem to tend to exhibit an arrogant superiority akin to the Assail.

They aren't locked into Lightfall. Lightfall is the border between the worlds of Kurald Galain (where Kharkanas is) and Kurald Liosan (where the Liosan army is based). Lightfall appears to be a place where the fabric between the two worlds has thinned, allowing people from one side to cross over into the other.

Seems to me like Kharkanas has been empty for a really long time, was it juts bad luck for the Liosan that the shake showed up the moment they decided to invade?

Yes, the timing by the Shake does seem fortuitous doesn't it. Bad luck...narrative need...take your pick

[worry]

It's not coincidence...it's convergence!

[D'rek]

 dickiedan, on 02 June 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

 Khellendros, on 02 June 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

 dickiedan, on 02 June 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

 Tattersail, on 15 May 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

Yeah, finish the book and then come back to this thread if you're still unsure.

I am still a little confused:


The Liosan. Why were they trying to take over? was there some prophecy or some historic fact i missed? did they feel they were superior like the FA did? How and why did they get locked in light fall in the 1st place?

Why were they trying to take over? Because the Liosan and Andii tend to be bear millennia-old animosity towards each other. The Liosan saw an opportunity to conquer Kharkanas and tried to take it.

The Liosan (though not all of them) do seem to tend to exhibit an arrogant superiority akin to the Assail.

They aren't locked into Lightfall. Lightfall is the border between the worlds of Kurald Galain (where Kharkanas is) and Kurald Liosan (where the Liosan army is based). Lightfall appears to be a place where the fabric between the two worlds has thinned, allowing people from one side to cross over into the other.

Seems to me like Kharkanas has been empty for a really long time, was it juts bad luck for the Liosan that the shake showed up the moment they decided to invade?

Probably not. From flashbacks and Aparal's thoughts, it seems like Kadagar's father (and other ancestors) who ruled before Kadagar were isolationists, keeping the Liosan inside the sealed Kurald Thyrllan. Kadagar, though, is not. He recently came to power and had to go through a lot of social upheaval (hence the bodies on the walls and other horrors) before he had a solid grasp of power, and then he could start sending out forces. Kadagar's whole social/religious upheaveal is based upon no longer worshipping FL/Osserc and instead carving out their own destiny for themselves. Given how L'oric's old familiar was masquerading as Osserc to the Liosan, it's death in HoC is probably what precipitated this massive change in Liosan society and policy.

So basically, if Monok Ochem and co. hadn't killed L'oric's familiar, the Liosan would have just kept on sealing themselves in Kurald Thyrllan and not bothered anyone, and the Shake would have had a much easier time settling into Kharkanas.

---

Here's how I imagine it playing out:

(I forget the name of the Liosan city, so I will call it Sarkanas cause that's kinda close)

Pre-DG - Liosan society is sitting still in its timelessness. Kadagar's father is the ruler, from Sarkanas. Kadagar semi-secretly opposes the continued worship of Osserc, but has few followers and is not taken very seriously.

DG - Olar Ethil uses Kurald Thyrllan to burn away assailants in Shadow. Kulp, Baudin, Gesler, Stormy and Truth are crisped.

Kadagar's father sends Seneschal Jorrude to investigate/punish the thieves of fire.

HoC - Trull Sengar opens a portal to Kurald Thyrllan, out comes Jorrude and company. Monok Ochem, Ibra Gholan and the other 2 T'lan Imass kill L'oric's familiar, revealing to all the Liosan that it was not Osserc.

Jorrude and co. get mauled by Gesler's squad.

Kadagar begins openly opposing the current social norms of worshipping Osserc, who is not really watching over them. He gains much more followers very quickly.

Kadagar's father holds to the old ways. As Kadagar's believers grow, Liosan society is riven in two. Civil war erupts between Kadagar and his father's factions. Kadagar kills his father and takes control of Sarkanas. His religious and societal changes sweep outward, with the loyalists of the old ways either fleeing, being massacred or being conscripted into Kadagar's peasant army. Jayashul leads an army of loyalists to the Whorl.

Jorrude and co. get mauled by Skinner and Cowl as they return to Kurald Thyrllan.

Kadagar sends the Hounds of Light after Dragnipur, but they fail and retreat.

Jorrude and co., being loyalists, join with Jayashul's army.

Kadagar uses his army and the Hounds of Light to capture Kessobahn. He and his 12 most loyal followers become Soletaken eleint.

Using the power of the eleint, Kadagar breaks Lightfall and tries to invade Kurald Galain (and then everything else).

This post has been edited by D'rek: 11 June 2012 - 06:32 PM

[worry]

And somewhere near the end of that timeline, the Kadagar faction struck an alliance with the Forkrul Assail and the KCNR. Presumably after Kadagar declares himself Lord of Light, and before a big fat dragon is delivered unto him. Just to further erode the notion of "coincidence".

[Jorram]

Hell of an awesome summary! Repped accordingly. I never took the effort of bringing everything together, and I have to admit the Liosan/Shake ark felt totally random and plot convenient to me.

One question - did Jayashul mention anything to make you think he was loyalist back in RotCG, or is this simply inference, because they stuck with Loric's sister?
And while on that - where from the need for a familiar, etc, etc when they have a living descendant of Osserc absolutely available for a ruler all the time?

On a side note, did anybody feel the inclusion of Kallor and his love in this ark a bit "wait WHAT?"

[Sinisdar Toste]

It was, in a wait, kallor did what? kinda way. Made him more badass i thought, in all new ways.

Great summary drek, and I'd rep you if I wasn't on a cell phone. I always thought the events in KT set off by the killing of lorics familiar would be worth at least a book.

[tiam]

RE Kallor swaggering into Saranas ye it did feel random. For example how did he get there? I suppose though if his wife was a Liosan he could have found some way of getting there. Still its all part of showing Kallor as a deeper character who genuinely cares for things (mostly his horse he cant cry for) which sets up B and B quite nicely.