Help
Hi all! I've just finished TtH (first read through) and have left lurk mode (these forums are an amazing trove of knowledge, btw) to see if you can help with a burning question that I can't shake since DG. From what I can gather, folks become ascendant by being revered/worshipped? Coltaine was certainly elevated to cult status by his army and the saved civilians following his death outside the gates of Aren. I know he's dead, but that hasn't stopped others such as the BBs who continue to have an active role in the goings on. It even seems like the sacrifice/agony of his death would augment his chances of becoming an ascendant. So why does Coltaine get no love? He's one of my favorite characters, and I was sad to see him go. I keep hoping he will pop out of the woodwork at some point.
Page 1 of 1
Ascendency and Coltaine more of a general question...
#2
Kanese S's 
- TMI Frigate Bird of Low House PEN
-
- Group: Mott Irregulars
- Posts: 1,947
- Joined: 26-April 11
Posted 08 May 2012 - 06:37 PM
Not necessarily. Not all ascendants are worshiped, and many actively discourage such. The Bridgeburners ascended due to a Tanno Spiritwalker song.
Also, have you read RotCG?
Also, have you read RotCG?
Laseen did nothing wrong.
I demand Telorast & Curdle plushies.
I demand Telorast & Curdle plushies.
#3
hamster
- Recruit
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 2
- Joined: 26-March 12
- Location:In the cage, yo
Posted 08 May 2012 - 07:03 PM
Kanese S, on 08 May 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:
Also, have you read RotCG?
No, I sure haven't...I decided to go through the Erikson books first.
I guess I'm still confused about exactly "how" somebody becomes an ascendant. There is a clear connection between worship and godhood--I guess I'm confusing that with ascendancy?
#4
worry
- Master of the Deck
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 14,791
- Joined: 24-February 10
- Location:the buried west
Posted 08 May 2012 - 07:26 PM
All gods are ascendants, not all ascendants are gods, or something like that. You gain ascendancy by earning experience through killing monsters (slimes, wyverns, anthropomorphic cacti, etc.).
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
#5
Coco with marshmallows
- DIIIIIIIIIIVVVEEEEE
-
- Group: LHTEC
- Posts: 2,115
- Joined: 26-October 05
Posted 08 May 2012 - 08:10 PM
Well, to quote Nil and Nether from Bonehunters regarding the worshipping of Coltaine as a god by people of the Seven Cities:
"Fools. Wickans don't ascend. We...reiterate"
"Fools. Wickans don't ascend. We...reiterate"
meh. Link was dead :(
#6
Sinisdar Toste
- Dead Serious
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 3,851
- Joined: 14-July 07
- Location:The C-Hood
Posted 09 May 2012 - 05:02 AM
and to paraphrase Ganoes Paran: "Ascendants are the peaks of mountains, bitches!"
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
- Oscar Levant
- Oscar Levant
#7
D'rek
- Consort of High House Mafia
-
- Group: Super Moderators
- Posts: 14,614
- Joined: 08-August 07
- Location::
Posted 11 May 2012 - 04:02 PM
And to quote Baruk: "There are many paths to Ascendancy, some more subtle than others."
(what follows is pretty much nothing but my opinion on the matter)
Basically Ascendants are just significant people. There's no clear definition of Ascendancy because it's not a clear distinction at all. Baruk considers himself an Ascendant, and Anomander Rake didn't disagree, but even those who work closely with him, like Murillio and Rallick, consider him just some mage/alchemist. There's no special way of identifying who is an Ascendant and who is not, meaning that whether someone even is one or not could be very much in the eye of the beholder.
Furthermore (or as a result of the murky definition), there aren't any universal characteristics that apply to all Ascendants. Gesler has a mean punch, sure, but his Ascendancy didn't grant him any city-flattening powers on the scale of Rake or Icarium.
As to godhood, the defintion of what is a "god" is much more clear than an Ascendant - a god is any creature/entity/concept/whatever that is worshipped. Not just revered, but outright worshipped. Fener has entire temples dedicated to him and a religious organization that spans several continents, so he is a god. Thesorma Raadil is part of a pantheon worshipped by an entire culture in southern Quon Tali, so she is a goddess. Ay'edenan tek' velut !enan, was a stream spirit worshipped by a small group of people living nearby - it, too, is a god.
The thing with gods is that there's a consideration of perspective, and also of power. Ay'edenan tek' velut !enan was a small stream spirit. It is unknown if it even received any power or benefits from this at all. It may not even have ever been a corporeal creature, but rather may have come into existance solely from that worship. On the other hand, Fener's enormous priesthood conducts rituals and prays and other stuff, and at least some of it is beneficial to Fener. He either gains literal power or accrues more followers out of it. So Fener is much more powerful than Ay'edenan tek' velut !enan or Thesorma Raadil, but they are all still god(desse)s.
What I mean by "perspective" is just that a god to one person might not be to another. Since Rake disdains any notion of him being a god, those he associates with do not worship him and most cultures he's encountered just see him as an Ascendant, but not a god. However, the Bluerose do worship him as a god. Similarly, the Cabalii worship Icarium but no one else does. Rake *is* a god to the Bluerose, Icarium *is* a god to the Cabalii, Ay'edenan tek' velut !enan *is* (was) a god to the folks by its stream, Thesorma Raadil *is* a goddess to the Dal Honese, even if no one else worships or even acknowledges them. The difference between these 4 is that a Kartoolian might acknowledge that Thesorma Raadil is a "Dal Honese goddess" if that Kartoolian is aware of Dal Honese religion, even though the Kartoolian doesn't worship her himself. But that Kartoolian isn't even aware that the Cabalii worship Icarium so the Kartoolian never thinks of Icarium as a god.
This is where, IMO, the most confusion stems in this series. Most of the characters we see, especially the Malazans, are aware of all the religions practiced in Quon Tali, 7C and Genebackis, so they refer to god(desse)s like Burn, the QoD, Shadowthrone, Fener, Treach, Oponn, Dryjhna, Hood, Mael, etc as gods and goddesses, even though they are not worshippers of those god(desse)s. But they're not familiar with the distant religious practices of Bluerose or Cabal, despite encountering their gods face-to-face.
(what follows is pretty much nothing but my opinion on the matter)
Basically Ascendants are just significant people. There's no clear definition of Ascendancy because it's not a clear distinction at all. Baruk considers himself an Ascendant, and Anomander Rake didn't disagree, but even those who work closely with him, like Murillio and Rallick, consider him just some mage/alchemist. There's no special way of identifying who is an Ascendant and who is not, meaning that whether someone even is one or not could be very much in the eye of the beholder.
Furthermore (or as a result of the murky definition), there aren't any universal characteristics that apply to all Ascendants. Gesler has a mean punch, sure, but his Ascendancy didn't grant him any city-flattening powers on the scale of Rake or Icarium.
As to godhood, the defintion of what is a "god" is much more clear than an Ascendant - a god is any creature/entity/concept/whatever that is worshipped. Not just revered, but outright worshipped. Fener has entire temples dedicated to him and a religious organization that spans several continents, so he is a god. Thesorma Raadil is part of a pantheon worshipped by an entire culture in southern Quon Tali, so she is a goddess. Ay'edenan tek' velut !enan, was a stream spirit worshipped by a small group of people living nearby - it, too, is a god.
The thing with gods is that there's a consideration of perspective, and also of power. Ay'edenan tek' velut !enan was a small stream spirit. It is unknown if it even received any power or benefits from this at all. It may not even have ever been a corporeal creature, but rather may have come into existance solely from that worship. On the other hand, Fener's enormous priesthood conducts rituals and prays and other stuff, and at least some of it is beneficial to Fener. He either gains literal power or accrues more followers out of it. So Fener is much more powerful than Ay'edenan tek' velut !enan or Thesorma Raadil, but they are all still god(desse)s.
What I mean by "perspective" is just that a god to one person might not be to another. Since Rake disdains any notion of him being a god, those he associates with do not worship him and most cultures he's encountered just see him as an Ascendant, but not a god. However, the Bluerose do worship him as a god. Similarly, the Cabalii worship Icarium but no one else does. Rake *is* a god to the Bluerose, Icarium *is* a god to the Cabalii, Ay'edenan tek' velut !enan *is* (was) a god to the folks by its stream, Thesorma Raadil *is* a goddess to the Dal Honese, even if no one else worships or even acknowledges them. The difference between these 4 is that a Kartoolian might acknowledge that Thesorma Raadil is a "Dal Honese goddess" if that Kartoolian is aware of Dal Honese religion, even though the Kartoolian doesn't worship her himself. But that Kartoolian isn't even aware that the Cabalii worship Icarium so the Kartoolian never thinks of Icarium as a god.
This is where, IMO, the most confusion stems in this series. Most of the characters we see, especially the Malazans, are aware of all the religions practiced in Quon Tali, 7C and Genebackis, so they refer to god(desse)s like Burn, the QoD, Shadowthrone, Fener, Treach, Oponn, Dryjhna, Hood, Mael, etc as gods and goddesses, even though they are not worshippers of those god(desse)s. But they're not familiar with the distant religious practices of Bluerose or Cabal, despite encountering their gods face-to-face.
worrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:
I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
#8
alt146
- Here comes the Strongbad!
-
- Group: High House Mafia
- Posts: 827
- Joined: 29-September 08
- Location:Pretoria ZA
Posted 12 May 2012 - 06:49 AM
D, on 11 May 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:
And to quote Baruk: "There are many paths to Ascendancy, some more subtle than others."
(what follows is pretty much nothing but my opinion on the matter)
Basically Ascendants are just significant people. There's no clear definition of Ascendancy because it's not a clear distinction at all. Baruk considers himself an Ascendant, and Anomander Rake didn't disagree, but even those who work closely with him, like Murillio and Rallick, consider him just some mage/alchemist. There's no special way of identifying who is an Ascendant and who is not, meaning that whether someone even is one or not could be very much in the eye of the beholder.
Furthermore (or as a result of the murky definition), there aren't any universal characteristics that apply to all Ascendants. Gesler has a mean punch, sure, but his Ascendancy didn't grant him any city-flattening powers on the scale of Rake or Icarium.
As to godhood, the defintion of what is a "god" is much more clear than an Ascendant - a god is any creature/entity/concept/whatever that is worshipped. Not just revered, but outright worshipped. Fener has entire temples dedicated to him and a religious organization that spans several continents, so he is a god. Thesorma Raadil is part of a pantheon worshipped by an entire culture in southern Quon Tali, so she is a goddess. Ay'edenan tek' velut !enan, was a stream spirit worshipped by a small group of people living nearby - it, too, is a god.
The thing with gods is that there's a consideration of perspective, and also of power. Ay'edenan tek' velut !enan was a small stream spirit. It is unknown if it even received any power or benefits from this at all. It may not even have ever been a corporeal creature, but rather may have come into existance solely from that worship. On the other hand, Fener's enormous priesthood conducts rituals and prays and other stuff, and at least some of it is beneficial to Fener. He either gains literal power or accrues more followers out of it. So Fener is much more powerful than Ay'edenan tek' velut !enan or Thesorma Raadil, but they are all still god(desse)s.
What I mean by "perspective" is just that a god to one person might not be to another. Since Rake disdains any notion of him being a god, those he associates with do not worship him and most cultures he's encountered just see him as an Ascendant, but not a god. However, the Bluerose do worship him as a god. Similarly, the Cabalii worship Icarium but no one else does. Rake *is* a god to the Bluerose, Icarium *is* a god to the Cabalii, Ay'edenan tek' velut !enan *is* (was) a god to the folks by its stream, Thesorma Raadil *is* a goddess to the Dal Honese, even if no one else worships or even acknowledges them. The difference between these 4 is that a Kartoolian might acknowledge that Thesorma Raadil is a "Dal Honese goddess" if that Kartoolian is aware of Dal Honese religion, even though the Kartoolian doesn't worship her himself. But that Kartoolian isn't even aware that the Cabalii worship Icarium so the Kartoolian never thinks of Icarium as a god.
This is where, IMO, the most confusion stems in this series. Most of the characters we see, especially the Malazans, are aware of all the religions practiced in Quon Tali, 7C and Genebackis, so they refer to god(desse)s like Burn, the QoD, Shadowthrone, Fener, Treach, Oponn, Dryjhna, Hood, Mael, etc as gods and goddesses, even though they are not worshippers of those god(desse)s. But they're not familiar with the distant religious practices of Bluerose or Cabal, despite encountering their gods face-to-face.
(what follows is pretty much nothing but my opinion on the matter)
Basically Ascendants are just significant people. There's no clear definition of Ascendancy because it's not a clear distinction at all. Baruk considers himself an Ascendant, and Anomander Rake didn't disagree, but even those who work closely with him, like Murillio and Rallick, consider him just some mage/alchemist. There's no special way of identifying who is an Ascendant and who is not, meaning that whether someone even is one or not could be very much in the eye of the beholder.
Furthermore (or as a result of the murky definition), there aren't any universal characteristics that apply to all Ascendants. Gesler has a mean punch, sure, but his Ascendancy didn't grant him any city-flattening powers on the scale of Rake or Icarium.
As to godhood, the defintion of what is a "god" is much more clear than an Ascendant - a god is any creature/entity/concept/whatever that is worshipped. Not just revered, but outright worshipped. Fener has entire temples dedicated to him and a religious organization that spans several continents, so he is a god. Thesorma Raadil is part of a pantheon worshipped by an entire culture in southern Quon Tali, so she is a goddess. Ay'edenan tek' velut !enan, was a stream spirit worshipped by a small group of people living nearby - it, too, is a god.
The thing with gods is that there's a consideration of perspective, and also of power. Ay'edenan tek' velut !enan was a small stream spirit. It is unknown if it even received any power or benefits from this at all. It may not even have ever been a corporeal creature, but rather may have come into existance solely from that worship. On the other hand, Fener's enormous priesthood conducts rituals and prays and other stuff, and at least some of it is beneficial to Fener. He either gains literal power or accrues more followers out of it. So Fener is much more powerful than Ay'edenan tek' velut !enan or Thesorma Raadil, but they are all still god(desse)s.
What I mean by "perspective" is just that a god to one person might not be to another. Since Rake disdains any notion of him being a god, those he associates with do not worship him and most cultures he's encountered just see him as an Ascendant, but not a god. However, the Bluerose do worship him as a god. Similarly, the Cabalii worship Icarium but no one else does. Rake *is* a god to the Bluerose, Icarium *is* a god to the Cabalii, Ay'edenan tek' velut !enan *is* (was) a god to the folks by its stream, Thesorma Raadil *is* a goddess to the Dal Honese, even if no one else worships or even acknowledges them. The difference between these 4 is that a Kartoolian might acknowledge that Thesorma Raadil is a "Dal Honese goddess" if that Kartoolian is aware of Dal Honese religion, even though the Kartoolian doesn't worship her himself. But that Kartoolian isn't even aware that the Cabalii worship Icarium so the Kartoolian never thinks of Icarium as a god.
This is where, IMO, the most confusion stems in this series. Most of the characters we see, especially the Malazans, are aware of all the religions practiced in Quon Tali, 7C and Genebackis, so they refer to god(desse)s like Burn, the QoD, Shadowthrone, Fener, Treach, Oponn, Dryjhna, Hood, Mael, etc as gods and goddesses, even though they are not worshippers of those god(desse)s. But they're not familiar with the distant religious practices of Bluerose or Cabal, despite encountering their gods face-to-face.
To add to this, ascendency is usually achieved through some mix of willpower, experience or raw physical/magical power. All of these build to push the tipping point of ascendency. Being worshipped as a god usually provides a lot of that push, which is why gods are usually ascendent. There isn't that clear of definition of where that point lies, but involves being more than a baseline human/imass/whatever. The number of crows at Coltaine's death are a good example of this: Sorno Enath, who was a fairly powerful mage, had his soul taken by about a dozen crows (not sure the exact number). Coltaine, on the other hand, required untold thousands of crows to store his souls. His soul was that much larger and there was that much more to him in terms of sheer willpower, badassery and tactical prowess. Not to mention the amount of quazi-worship and all the deaths in his name that would have pushed him closer to ascendency during the course of the chain of dogs.
There is also no clear definiton of the benefits of ascendency (or godhood for that matter), but it seems to involve stepping away from the normal restraints of mortality such as aging, hunger and sickness and becoming semi-immortal. Rather than being subject to the world, the world becomes subject to them. It could be almost like the Buddhist concept of nirvana, but achieved during life rather than at death, and with a physical and mental component rather than purely spiritual (not an expert on Buddhism, so excuse me if this analogy is faulty).
This post has been edited by alt146: 12 May 2012 - 06:50 AM
[url="http://www.alt146.zzl.org"]MafiaManager[/url]: My Mafia Modding tool - Now at v0.3b
With great power comes a great integral of energy over time.
With great power comes a great integral of energy over time.
#9
HoosierDaddy
- Believer
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 8,028
- Joined: 30-June 08
- Location:Indianapolis
- Interests:Football
Posted 12 May 2012 - 07:18 AM
hamster, on 08 May 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:
Hi all! I've just finished TtH (first read through) and have left lurk mode (these forums are an amazing trove of knowledge, btw) to see if you can help with a burning question that I can't shake since DG. From what I can gather, folks become ascendant by being revered/worshipped? Coltaine was certainly elevated to cult status by his army and the saved civilians following his death outside the gates of Aren. I know he's dead, but that hasn't stopped others such as the BBs who continue to have an active role in the goings on. It even seems like the sacrifice/agony of his death would augment his chances of becoming an ascendant. So why does Coltaine get no love? He's one of my favorite characters, and I was sad to see him go. I keep hoping he will pop out of the woodwork at some point.
D'reks answer was a very good primer for ascendency, godhood, and the possible differences. Alt specified that some more.
Coltaine is a special case because the Wickans worship their own and empower their own, as Alt described. Read Return of the Crimson Guard, and continue on with the Malazan series to get more info.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
#10
sting01
- Sergeant
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 90
- Joined: 16-March 11
Posted 14 May 2012 - 06:20 AM
LEt say there are several like ascendants exemples in real history :
Carolus Magnus (Karl der Grosse, Charlemagne); Freidrich der zweite (Frederic II , Holy Roman Empire of Germany) aka stupor mundi , Napoleon
All those personages did change the normal history flux, and took decisions that still influence greatly our life even if they lived 1300 years ago! But as you can notice, they did died as everyone else.
Edit : here are the name of 3 famous pre han (chinese) persons; who became ascendants then eventually for Chiyou even a God of War, then (as Fener) lost said Good hood :
Chiyou , and his 2 adversaries : Huangdi (yellow emperor) andt Yandi (red emperor or fire emperor).
Another famous chinese being Shennong (rumored to be the ancestor of the 3 named before).
All of them would have been considered as ascendants by their fellow followers (during their life)
A good is more a concept , workshipped (by the spilling of blood mostly).
Still there are 2 problems :
1) Case of Coltaine
2) Case of a concept is assumed by an Ascendant (oldest Gods for exemple, Mael providing us with some nice dialogues on the subject).
The case of Coltaine must be understood with regards to Boudhism : reincarnation with your past trailing you more or less. So if you were powerfull, if you are educated in relation to such power, if you continue in the same way, it will be sontinue to add; and from a powerfull being reincarnated you will become an ascendant. In Wu only the Wickans are given to us with such capacity (while we may also suppose other tribes must have it!). If Stormo did not die the way he did in the river crossing, he would have be a perfect candidat in a dozen or so generation. Notice in this explanation, someone as Ferule will not be concerned, as he willingly more or less refused the world (and by so anyway to improve himself , such refusal wouldbe carried out for the next life and may even become the main character trait).
A Godhood assumed by an Ascendant will provide him/her with the following : increase of power, direct relation with the clergy and the followers. As stated by Mael, and the other letheri gods; the direct relation is more a pain in the proverbial a*****s that any thing else. The god will be under siege by the menial and mundane demands from the follower. Such nightmare may explain why Dassem prefer to be alone; the 'almost godhood' being for him only a way to get back to Hood and make him taste Dassem's fury.
Carolus Magnus (Karl der Grosse, Charlemagne); Freidrich der zweite (Frederic II , Holy Roman Empire of Germany) aka stupor mundi , Napoleon
All those personages did change the normal history flux, and took decisions that still influence greatly our life even if they lived 1300 years ago! But as you can notice, they did died as everyone else.
Edit : here are the name of 3 famous pre han (chinese) persons; who became ascendants then eventually for Chiyou even a God of War, then (as Fener) lost said Good hood :
Chiyou , and his 2 adversaries : Huangdi (yellow emperor) andt Yandi (red emperor or fire emperor).
Another famous chinese being Shennong (rumored to be the ancestor of the 3 named before).
All of them would have been considered as ascendants by their fellow followers (during their life)
A good is more a concept , workshipped (by the spilling of blood mostly).
Still there are 2 problems :
1) Case of Coltaine
2) Case of a concept is assumed by an Ascendant (oldest Gods for exemple, Mael providing us with some nice dialogues on the subject).
The case of Coltaine must be understood with regards to Boudhism : reincarnation with your past trailing you more or less. So if you were powerfull, if you are educated in relation to such power, if you continue in the same way, it will be sontinue to add; and from a powerfull being reincarnated you will become an ascendant. In Wu only the Wickans are given to us with such capacity (while we may also suppose other tribes must have it!). If Stormo did not die the way he did in the river crossing, he would have be a perfect candidat in a dozen or so generation. Notice in this explanation, someone as Ferule will not be concerned, as he willingly more or less refused the world (and by so anyway to improve himself , such refusal wouldbe carried out for the next life and may even become the main character trait).
A Godhood assumed by an Ascendant will provide him/her with the following : increase of power, direct relation with the clergy and the followers. As stated by Mael, and the other letheri gods; the direct relation is more a pain in the proverbial a*****s that any thing else. The god will be under siege by the menial and mundane demands from the follower. Such nightmare may explain why Dassem prefer to be alone; the 'almost godhood' being for him only a way to get back to Hood and make him taste Dassem's fury.
This post has been edited by sting01: 14 May 2012 - 08:58 AM
Share this topic:
Page 1 of 1