[Kanese S's]

So, for those of us who have read all or most of the series, we know that at some point Draconus and Mother Dark were something of an item.

However, it's been pointed out to me in other threads that his daughters, Lady Envy and Sister Spite, were born of Sheltatha Lore, IIRC. Since I've only read most of the series once (about halfway through Deadhouse Gates on my first reread), and can't recall some of the specifics, I'm taking my fellow forumites at their word.

I know that The Timeline Is Not Important, but still... in which order did the relationships occur? I'd think that the one with old Mommy D was first, but I could be wrong. Also, at some point Anomander Rake took Dragnipur from Draconus and imprisoned him within it. I'm not sure how related this was to Draconus boinking his mom, but it seems like there might be some baggage from that. However, if Mother Dark was before Sheltatha, Anomandaris certainly would have had to simmer for quite a while before the final confrontation.

Also, I just remembered that supposedly Lady Envy had a hand in the events that led to her dad being stuck pulling that wagon, meaning that maybe it's more likely he was with Sheltatha first?

Yes, I know, this is stupid.

[D'rek]

IMO, he almost certainly had a relationship with MD before FL did - from TtH we see that Rake became Soletaken shortly after FL and the Liosan were revealed to the Andii. Furthermore, there is references to Draconus suffering a great betrayal and I think these would lean more towards being betrayed by MD for FL than Envy's betrayal of her father.

Then however many centuries or millenia later, he had a relationship with Sheltatha Lore (or at least a clandestine encounter) and she gave birth to Spite and Envy. This would have to be after the Edur were revealed/created, in order for Sheltatha to exist (daughter of Scabarandi and Tiam), and takes place before Osserc runs into the three spiteful Soletaken ladies, as Udinaas sees in a vision in MT. It's hard to know exactly when that happened, but it is sometime after the MT prologue (which a little over 300 000 years before GotM). Probably not too long after the MT prologue, given how Sukul and Menandore are adding Sheltatha in there thinking Scabby wants the company. Given that one of Sukul and Menandore didn't know about Spite and Envy, Draconus having relations with Sheltatha was probably relatively recent (in the last few millenia or so?).

And then Draconus keeps being Draconus for many millenia more, going around hunting dragons with his Dragni-void (as seen in RotCG) and at some point deciding to chase all the remaining dragons back into Starvald Demelain and seal it. Roughly 100 000 years before GotM he curses and gets cursed by Kallor. After that he alters the nature of the upcoming Dragnipur so that it is not as final as it might have been.

And then some time after that, but still longer before GotM, there is a big weird squabble between Osserc, Rake, Envy, Spite and Draconus which results in Rake and Draconus having a sword-enhanced shouting match and Draconus gets Dragnipur'd.

[worry]

I think D'rek pretty much has it. It's unclear whether Draconus was already a terrestrial/mortal world "Elder God" at the time he was dating Mother Dark, but I'd imagine it's possible, since he seemed to have enough power already to even take that role without threat from any TA -- but it of course depends on the existence of humans, so I dunno. But all that stuff must have taken place before the dragons/Starvald Demelain/K'rul/Warrens stuff, since T'iam was still around, so I think the logic of D'rek's timeline holds up.

[Kanese S's]

Indeed, I guess Sheltatha, being Edur, has to have MD and FL getting together as a prerequisite.

Thanks for the explanation, D'rek.

[GoodOldSatan]

This theory does not appear to be consistent with FOD [as Spite, Envy (& Malice) are all present during the Draconus/Mother Dark relationship.] And, IIRC, the unpleasantness that is Olar Ethil is their mother (although Sheltatha does make an appearance, but she is quite young at the time ... too young to be their mother anyway).

That book appears to make a mess of Baruk's Draconean Family Tree. Forgive my inability to search this site well, but is there a thread here that cleans that tree up (perhaps, ... wish, wish) with their original Tiste names, as well as the ones in Baruk's attempt?

[Defiance]

Remember, all of this stuff happened hundreds of thousands of years before the main series. This explains how Baruk is so off in his family tree.

As for the whole mother-father-sister etc. thing, there's been a bit of discussion on this elsewhere in the forums. Basically, it's been decided that these titles are usually not literal, as shown in Forge of Darkness with Anomander and Mother Dark (on the other hand, if Urusander does become Father Light, then Osserc can truly claim to be his son). Because we're dealing with beings that have lived for hundreds of thousands of years, I believe that titles like "mother" and "father" lose some of their relevance when applied to blood ties.

Also, to tie it to the real-world, consider how some groups within the United States use kinship names for people who aren't related to them.

[Kanese S's]

GoodOldSatan, on 07 December 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

This theory does not appear to be consistent with FOD [as Spite, Envy (& Malice) are all present during the Draconus/Mother Dark relationship.] And, IIRC, the unpleasantness that is Olar Ethil is their mother (although Sheltatha does make an appearance, but she is quite young at the time ... too young to be their mother anyway).

That book appears to make a mess of Baruk's Draconean Family Tree. Forgive my inability to search this site well, but is there a thread here that cleans that tree up (perhaps, ... wish, wish) with their original Tiste names, as well as the ones in Baruk's attempt?

Notice the dates on this thread. FoD wasn't out yet. Olar Ethil is definitely the terrible trio's mother. Either there's some more metaphorical parentage going on in the other two books of the trilogy, or Baruk's tree is just totally wrong.

Though, thousands upon thousands upon thousands of years after the fact, that's pretty understandable. Especially as it seems that Olar Ethil had been mostly forgotten by the time of the main series, having become undead due to the ritual, and so he just plugged in a figure who seemed to fit.

[worry]

Yah, Satan, get your dates right, you senile boob. Sounds like the Old is more operative than the Good in terms of your cognitive facilities. What a laugh riot! Man, if there's two things I hate in life, it's Satan and respecting our elders.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Defiance, on 07 December 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

[...] with Anomander and Mother Dark (on the other hand, if Urusander does become Father Light, then Osserc can truly claim to be his son).

ironic then that he's sometimes known as the bastard of light.

[Defiance]

Bastard of Light could be referring to the fact that he only acknowledges Father Light as his father and denies Mother Dark (rightly so, biologically).

[GoodOldSatan]

worrywort, on 07 December 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

Yah, Satan, get your dates right, you senile boob. Sounds like the Old is more operative than the Good in terms of your cognitive facilities. What a laugh riot! Man, if there's two things I hate in life, it's Satan and respecting our elders.

Thanks for your considered and helpful post. You've convinced me ... you're a genius and I'm cognitively challenged. (As an aside though, "hating" Satan or other fictional beings may cause others -- certainly not me -- to question your ability to comment on such matters.)

On the original topic however, I did find this chart from Drusus Achamian's post (#16 in the Envy, Spite and Malice thread in the Forge of Darkness section):

[worry]

A twister of tales.