[Excellence]

Just finished the book. I liked it. It was super epic and battles aplenty.

I'm not disappointed like others who said all Pure Assail were dispatched too easily. It was realism. They think themselves superior; they think humans are insects; they seriously underestimate humans, as all deities and ascendants do all series long. It's classic.

What I wasn't happy about was the closure...

The Errant . . . seriously. What happened? He releases the worlds most lethal threat and that's it, never heard of again? I would have liked some standoff between him and Draconus or Paran.

Icarium . . . seriously. What's the point of saying 9 books he's a lethal threat if you only see him uleashed twice: Bonehunters' finale and a brief moment in the Seven Cities Deadhouse? He was utterly wasted for HALF THE SERIES. And Mappo!!! He watch him bawling over his buddy only to lose in the end? Pung becomes the new companion? Mappo needed more closure.

But that's th enature of the series, isn't? The book of the FALLEN. The losers. The murdered.

What bout Trull, Knight of Shadow?

Another essentially wasted person was Gruntle. After book 3, he literally does nothing at all. Nothing.

Where's the closure for Sandalath? She goes crazy with memories?

Why did Cotillion have to kill Kaminsod? And in his own pov thoughts, why doesn't Kaminsod call himself by his name? The name Kaminsod doesn't appear once in the book! He was free, he was grateful. What about the Jade meteors getting closer and closer to crashing down and devestating the land? So he dies and what happens to them?

And the biggest kicker . . . at the end, when Crokus comes home to Apsalar, the moon is described as whole and shiny.

Huh?

I liked the book, but those were my biggest issues. Plenty of slick moments. The dog gnawing on Hood's ankle, just about any Hood moment. Traditional racial enemies united against a common foe. The T'lan Imass returned to life, only to face a huge army of Kolansii. Bad timing... From House of Chains, the possessed enkaral the Wolves recruit gets a remembered cameo. Quick Bruthen cameo too. The kid at the end saying he'll grow up and be famous just how the series first began with another kid... Nic cinematic end with the weather vane creaking in the wind, would look haunting in a movie as the screen darkened and the credits appear.

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

Cotillion had to kill Kaminsod to free his spirit to join his followers. He was bound to a "mortal" body and then killed to free his essence, think Hood in Toll the Hounds. It was... weirdly depicted, yeah, and I don't think it had to be portrayed quite as obtusely, but I think that's the generally accepted theory.

The moon returned to one piece because of... well, I assumed it was gravity. I'm not very good at the science stuff, so that might not be what gravity would actually do.

[Khellendros]

Regarding the 'weird depiction' of Cot and the CG:

Remember that the scene of Cotillion stabbing the CG was from the POV of Koryk.

Remember how Koryk's dreams were described in The Bonehunters, at Y'Ghatan? Koryk is a man who does not believe in the gods, in any of them, and decorates his body with fetishes designed to ward off their attention. He is faithless, though in a different way to Leoman. Perhaps it's better to say he is empty of faith.

And then he stares into the eyes of the CG. And sees there something he's never seen before in all his life. Something which he can believe in, have faith in. And then Cotillion goes and kills that.

This is hardly the first time that SE has chosen to use a POV which is skewed, biased, or seeing just one side of a story

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

That doesn't really explain why Cotillion has to spring from the shadows behind Kaminsod and stab him in the back, though. If he was in on the plan, why not... shit, I dunno, I guess it's a relatively painless way to go. I'd rather see it coming myself

[D'rek]

POOPOO MCBUMFACE, on 14 March 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

That doesn't really explain why Cotillion has to spring from the shadows behind Kaminsod and stab him in the back, though. If he was in on the plan, why not... shit, I dunno, I guess it's a relatively painless way to go. I'd rather see it coming myself

Because there's a whole bunch of gods and a giant gaping maw of Akhrast Korvalain that can and would interfere if he didn't do it all suddenly and by surprise.

The scenes with Cotillion across DoD, TCG and a bit of SW really put together a fascinating puzzle that doesn't easily come together the first read through because they are out of order, few and far between. But putting them together you can see Cot finishing his return to humanity (the emotional state, not the mortal state) and setting out on a cloaked journey where he cannot interact with the rest of the world throughout in order to appear where he needs to for only a brief moment, all to deliver a final murderous act of compassion. Re-reading that last conversation with Lostara before he departs on said journey, cognizant of his evolution throughout the series from pissed-off-revenge-obsessed Ascendant to breaking-down-crying-at-the-First-Throne... IMO it pulls on the heart strings plenty

[D'rek]

Other bits:

Excellence, on 14 March 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

Icarium . . . seriously. What's the point of saying 9 books he's a lethal threat if you only see him uleashed twice: Bonehunters' finale and a brief moment in the Seven Cities Deadhouse? He was utterly wasted for HALF THE SERIES. And Mappo!!! He watch him bawling over his buddy only to lose in the end? Pung becomes the new companion? Mappo needed more closure.

But that's th enature of the series, isn't? The book of the FALLEN. The losers. The murdered.

Yup, exactly. Mappo failed like who-knows how many other Guardians before. Did they all turn away from their original purpose to befriend Icarium? How many before lost him and died trying to save him from his new Guardian? It's a terrible cycle and it's going to keep going, but SE gives us the nice little bit of hope that maybe this time Icarium will at last start to remember.

Excellence, on 14 March 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

What bout Trull, Knight of Shadow?

He's dead. What did you expect him to do?

And no, there was never any chance that his unborn fetus-kid was going to somehow impact the finale.

Excellence, on 14 March 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

Another essentially wasted person was Gruntle. After book 3, he literally does nothing at all. Nothing.

Which has always been in his nature. The conflict of his own desires, which have been broken down to very little mostly since MoI and completely since TtH, versus the desires of his god who made a poor choice of Mortal Sword. Giving into Treach's war-lust and then bringing Treach down in a suicidal final battle seems about right to me for Gruntle, the man who had nothing left to live for except his stubborness in resisting Treach's influence on behalf of god-manipulated humans everywhere.

Excellence, on 14 March 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

And the biggest kicker . . . at the end, when Crokus comes home to Apsalar, the moon is described as whole and shiny.

Huh?

It was said in TtH the pieces would eventually fall back upon themselves. AFAI recall, that's not the only reference in TCG to the reformed moon.

[worry]

I'll cover the Errant thing, at least from my perspective. And as I see it, one of two possibilities exist: 1) Draconus gets him, and Oponn have their revenge on him (not sure it would actually qualify as revenge, but you know, their grudge). 2) The Errant really did escape to fight another day, and perhaps we'll see him again. I don't think he can hide on Lether anymore (Mael alone might want him dead, but he's not the only one obviously), plus there's the Master of the Deck out there, plus Gothos's ritual is ending, plus all of his partners in crime are dead. And since the Karsa trilogy is oncoming, the Lether continent and all its Toblakai/Teblor/whatever SE feels like calling them by the time that comes out -- is still possibly in the game. Could be wrong but I can't imagine it's all gonna take place on Genebackis. So if he's out there, he might get dealt. And this is just a shot in the dark, but if the Eresal has a game plan at all (and she seems to) it might very well have to do with the Errant. Unlike Knuckles/Errant/Oponn, the Eresal is closer to a shaper of destiny rather than chance, so she may very well be in opposition to that Elder God we love to hate. That idea just occurred to me, so it might not be very well thought out, but maybe it has legs.

[D'iversify]

Regarding the moon, there are a couple examples of moons in the solar system where similar such collisions have likely happened but which have reconstituted: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Mimas_(moon);

[Excellence]

I didn't catch the references to a reformed moon until the last page. I liked the idea how Oponn were going to Errant the Errant, but I would like to have seen some consequence in-book from his actions.

There was also the running line series long, why doesn't Cotillion just knife the Chaind One and be done with it. That's what he ended up doing. Another of the numerous foreshadowing Erikson did. But that was it. He just got backstabbed. I didn't catch any part that his spirit soared up to his followers. All someone said was, it had to be done. Did I misread that part?

As for Trull and Pedac's baby, well, a big deal was made of it last book. Where several ascendants protected her child and got melted. Why indicate something if not develop on it?

[worry]

I think you did misread that part or maybe zoomed through it, because the text explicitly mentions a force leaving the CG's body and shooting up into the sky towards the jade giants. It's not just implied or extrapolated.

As for the Trull baby, it is what it is, and there's no reason to believe it won't feature somewhere in the future, right? But to expect the unborn baby to do something important in the very next book seems hasty to me. Then again, I'm not a big fan of fetuses, so that might be a personal bias.

[Excellence]

What about the new warrens of last book?

[D'rek]

Excellence, on 19 March 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

What about the new warrens of last book?

There are now new warrens. They were formed by Icarium in the same manner as K'rul created the Paths. Some human(ish) creatures can use them. Probably more people will learn to use them eventually and maybe it will result in more worship of Icarium, or maybe not. But I don't think it made any major changes overnight (other than giving Sinn new non-Telas fire to burn through Akhrast Korvalain and Stormy with).

What, you expected scenes of people randomly waking up and going "I can now channel the mighty warren of Blueiron!" and then raising tree roots out of the ground all across the world?

[Excellence]

No, but why make a big deal about something if it gets no mention next and last book?

[D'rek]

Excellence, on 22 March 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

No, but why make a big deal about something if it gets no mention next and last book?

Because it's a major motivating factor of some of the scheming Elder Gods, who could tolerate their "children" gods but not, apparently, the "grandchildren" gods, as well as it giving Sinn and Grub powers to overcome Gathran citadels, build an enormous blueiron azath and burn through a horde of Kolansii and Stormy despite being at the heart of unveiled Akhrast Korvalain.

[worry]

Yah, Sinn and Grub (and Badelle) all use the enhanced power of these warrens in the last two books. It's there. Plus there's more books to come.

[bluedust]

Dumb question, but.. K'rul.. is his body the warrens or just a way through to the warrens?

Like could you just kill K'rul to deny people access to the warrens? Would the warrens cease to exist? K'rul's part is one of the few things I didn't understand at all.

Like if you need K'rul to dive through to access the new warrens, what does Lether use to dive into the holds? I dunno, the whole body = warrens thing just confused me.

[worry]

Warren is a finicky term. K'rul's heart definitely shapes the Paths to the warrens that humans can access, but as far as Starvald Demelain goes, it existed pre-K'rul and only joined with his heart as part of the deal with the Eleint, AFAIK. If you killed K'rul, human paths would cease to exist, the warrens themselves probably wouldn't immediately but who knows what the Eleint would do, and SD itself would probably be fine if now untethered, but that last part is conjecture. The Holds are the older equivalent of Houses (as Elder Warrens are to younger ones), and the paths to them don't require K'rul I don't think, just human agency and aptitude, but without K'rul the power is wilder and less shapable. K'rul makes it so that sorcery can be finessed by humans, basically. Scalpel vs. chainsaw, so to speak.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 24 March 2012 - 05:03 AM

[Excellence]

Throughout the early books it repeatedly says "K'rul's betrayal." Later you realise he made the warrens. First there were Holds. Raw, untame power, but bloodthirsty Elders who did as they pleased. Not a pleasant society to live in at that time. K'rul changed all that. He made new warrens. As time went by, the Elder Holds were forgotten, people used the more accessible warrens. His "peers" considered this a betrayal, hence the catchphrase in the early series. By that time the Elders had had children, times had changed, but I don't know who the grandchildren are.

[worry]

I think Oponn counts among the grandchildren, as do Spite and Envy, and in a less literal way, ST and Cots would count among them. It's only directly and literally generational for some of the gods, while it's a figurative term for a lot of the new-new gods and ascendants. I think. I dunno.

[Abyss]

Excellence, on 22 March 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

No, but why make a big deal about something if it gets no mention next and last book?

Because the story was going on before we started reading it, and continues after we're done.