[Slow Ben]

Cause, on 04 March 2020 - 03:03 PM, said:

So do we expect Bloomberg to put his money where his mouth is? Is he gonna spend another few hundred million dollars in adds for Biden?

I'd like to see him dump a sizeable amount into helping the Democrats take back the senate. Cause even if Biden/Sanders is president, nothings getting done if Turtleman is still in charge of the Senate.

[QuickTidal]

King Lear, on 04 March 2020 - 03:01 PM, said:

Why would people assume that if Warren is gone those votes would automatically go to Bernie?.

Because their platforms both lean progressive far more than anyone else in the race, so if you support her, one would assume your second choice would be him. Sure it's not going to be a 1:1 transfer, but I would argue that if people wanted her for her policies, then Bernie would inarguably make the next best choice.

Abyss, on 04 March 2020 - 03:02 PM, said:

I'm not surprised to see people spouting 'fuck the Dems if they steal the nom from Bernie i won't vote, let Trump win'.... that voice has always been out there. But the frequency and 'likes' suggests it's effectively a third voice that's 'democratic party' simply out of a lack of third option.

Like I said, I would not make that choice myself (If Biden had the nom, I'd vote Biden), as I've voted for people I didn't love in the elections in my province simply because Doug Ford (we still lost that, but at least he poisoned the well for Scheer), but I am simply saying I get it. I get the "fuck it, the whole thing is rotten" view after the last week or two. I get the disenfranchisement. Is it stupid to protest vote? Yes. Trump and the GOP need to be be voted out no matter how...but I get it from a reaction angle.

[King Lear]

Bloomberg just dropped out

[King Lear]

QuickTidal, on 04 March 2020 - 03:17 PM, said:

King Lear, on 04 March 2020 - 03:01 PM, said:

Why would people assume that if Warren is gone those votes would automatically go to Bernie?.

Because their platforms both lean progressive far more than anyone else in the race, so if you support her, one would assume your second choice would be him. Sure it's not going to be a 1:1 transfer, but I would argue that if people wanted her for her policies, then Bernie would inarguably make the next best choice.

You assume incorrectly. Approximately half her supporters would switch to Biden, so it's still not enough for Bernie to win.

[Obdigore]

Abyss, on 04 March 2020 - 03:02 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 03 March 2020 - 06:31 PM, said:

... we don't even see Sanders as that radical...up here in Canada, he would be a centrist/moderate, not even really a progressive leftist.

A significant chunk of his 'followers' are sliding all the way to radical. Canada context think Green Party feels with NDP proximity circa Jack Layton having an actual shot at PM. I spent some time reading their reactions to the Biden super tuesday victory and the level of rejection towards 'vote blue no matter who' is startling. I'm not surprised to see people spouting 'fuck the Dems if they steal the nom from Bernie i won't vote, let Trump win'.... that voice has always been out there. But the frequency and 'likes' suggests it's effectively a third voice that's 'democratic party' simply out of a lack of third option.

Biden cannot appeal to that voice. I'm not even sure Warren could (Bloomberg could if he were willing to offer then a million dollars each... what? he can afford it...).

I'm not sure I'd call them radical. I think they are sick of the late stage capitalism in the US. They want a candidate that will work to fix our fundamentally broken society and economy (as those two are inextricably tied together). Biden isn't doing that. His policies appear to be 'I'm an old white guy and I'm Obama's beard and I'll do whatever the DNC tells me to be'. He's the most average politician that's ever existed, and hes a creepy uncle.

Quite frankly, Biden can't appeal to the people who don't generally vote. Warren probably can't. It's obviously going to be a contested convention and the DNC is obviously going to give it to Joe on the strength of votes in the deep south, where the Democratic candidate won't win a state, and will continue to lose all those 'purple' states. Biden doesn't have a good message beyond 'I can work with fascists, no problems'.

[Obdigore]

QuickTidal, on 04 March 2020 - 03:17 PM, said:

Because their platforms both lean progressive far more than anyone else in the race, so if you support her, one would assume your second choice would be him. Sure it's not going to be a 1:1 transfer, but I would argue that if people wanted her for her policies, then Bernie would inarguably make the next best choice.

This isn't correct. People have lots of different reasons to vote, and all the ranked choice polls have about half of Warrens supporters choosing Biden as second and about half choosing Bernie.

[King Lear]

Also did we or did we not go through the whole 'Bernie or bust' thing in 2016 and then it came out months later that it was primarily influenced by botting? Are we really just going to uncritically repeat exactly what happened in 2016?

(The answer is yes, yes we are.)

[QuickTidal]

King Lear, on 04 March 2020 - 03:19 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 04 March 2020 - 03:17 PM, said:

King Lear, on 04 March 2020 - 03:01 PM, said:

Why would people assume that if Warren is gone those votes would automatically go to Bernie?.

Because their platforms both lean progressive far more than anyone else in the race, so if you support her, one would assume your second choice would be him. Sure it's not going to be a 1:1 transfer, but I would argue that if people wanted her for her policies, then Bernie would inarguably make the next best choice.

You assume incorrectly. Approximately half her supporters would switch to Biden, so it's still not enough for Bernie to win.

Then those people aren't actually wanting her for policy/platform, and they are stupid.

[QuickTidal]

Obdigore, on 04 March 2020 - 03:23 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 04 March 2020 - 03:17 PM, said:

Because their platforms both lean progressive far more than anyone else in the race, so if you support her, one would assume your second choice would be him. Sure it's not going to be a 1:1 transfer, but I would argue that if people wanted her for her policies, then Bernie would inarguably make the next best choice.

This isn't correct. People have lots of different reasons to vote, and all the ranked choice polls have about half of Warrens supporters choosing Biden as second and about half choosing Bernie.

That's so weird then. At least to me. Biden and Warren have completely different platforms.

[King Lear]

QuickTidal, on 04 March 2020 - 03:24 PM, said:

King Lear, on 04 March 2020 - 03:19 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 04 March 2020 - 03:17 PM, said:

King Lear, on 04 March 2020 - 03:01 PM, said:

Why would people assume that if Warren is gone those votes would automatically go to Bernie?.

Because their platforms both lean progressive far more than anyone else in the race, so if you support her, one would assume your second choice would be him. Sure it's not going to be a 1:1 transfer, but I would argue that if people wanted her for her policies, then Bernie would inarguably make the next best choice.

You assume incorrectly. Approximately half her supporters would switch to Biden, so it's still not enough for Bernie to win.

Then those people aren't actually wanting her for policy/platform, and they are stupid.

You know, I'm pretty tired of people who make claims to have 'No Skin in This Game' calling people stupid.

[Obdigore]

QuickTidal, on 04 March 2020 - 03:24 PM, said:

King Lear, on 04 March 2020 - 03:19 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 04 March 2020 - 03:17 PM, said:

King Lear, on 04 March 2020 - 03:01 PM, said:

Why would people assume that if Warren is gone those votes would automatically go to Bernie?.

Because their platforms both lean progressive far more than anyone else in the race, so if you support her, one would assume your second choice would be him. Sure it's not going to be a 1:1 transfer, but I would argue that if people wanted her for her policies, then Bernie would inarguably make the next best choice.

You assume incorrectly. Approximately half her supporters would switch to Biden, so it's still not enough for Bernie to win.

Then those people aren't actually wanting her for policy/platform, and they are stupid.

Maybe. But Warren isn't all that progressive, especially compared to Bernie. Her major things are breaking up the banks and putting a few regulations on financial institutions and the ultra-rich. Perhaps there are people who want that, and then are happier with 'status quo' if they can't get that? Because that's what Biden is, through and through.

[QuickTidal]

Obdigore, on 04 March 2020 - 03:26 PM, said:

Maybe. But Warren isn't all that progressive, especially compared to Bernie. Her major things are breaking up the banks and putting a few regulations on financial institutions and the ultra-rich. Perhaps there are people who want that, and then are happier with 'status quo' if they can't get that? Because that's what Biden is, through and through.

Thats a fair point. I still find it inherently weird to jump from Warren to Biden. Ah well.

[Obdigore]

QuickTidal, on 04 March 2020 - 03:27 PM, said:

Obdigore, on 04 March 2020 - 03:26 PM, said:

Maybe. But Warren isn't all that progressive, especially compared to Bernie. Her major things are breaking up the banks and putting a few regulations on financial institutions and the ultra-rich. Perhaps there are people who want that, and then are happier with 'status quo' if they can't get that? Because that's what Biden is, through and through.

Thats a fair point. I still find it inherently weird to jump from Warren to Biden. Ah well.

I find it odd that anyone would vote for Biden, that doesn't mean that people don't have their reasons, misguided or correct or whatever.

[QuickTidal]

What are Biden's chances of beating Trump? Do people think he can?

[Morgoth]

Aptorian, on 04 March 2020 - 02:05 PM, said:

Of the political positions I've heard of, I'd definitely put Sanders in the far left category in Denmark.

I find that hard to believe. Universal healthcare, free college education available for all, those are pretty mainstream by Danish standards I think? They certainly are here in Norway. Even our market liberalism party supports free higher education. His plans for strengthening unions will not come close to what protections we have for unions here in Norway, and though I'd have assumed it was the same in Denmark I guess I don't know that. The immigration stuff is hardly particularly liberal by the standards of western Europe, though I know Danish immigration laws are quite harsh. Immigration is a tricky question anyway, our two most anti-immigration parties for example are socialists and on the far right respectively. Different reasons but same result. In that same vein, I don't know anything about Danish environmental policy, but Bernie's Green New Deal doesn't seem all that radical to me, and again, environmentalism isn't as easy as a pure left/right issue either.

What policies does Sanders stand for that makes you think he'd be on the far left in Denmark?

[Obdigore]

QuickTidal, on 04 March 2020 - 03:30 PM, said:

What are Biden's chances of beating Trump? Do people think he can?

Biden doesn't inspire anyone. There's a large group that will vote blue, no matter who, but Biden certainly isn't going to turn anyone out who isn't already planning to vote against Trump.

I personally don't think he has a shot in hell, especially since Biden certainly seems to be fading mentally. While he does have a stutter, and has for years, when he calls his sister his wife and says he's running for senate, those are alarm bells for me for his mental health, and you can be sure the GOP political machine is going to pick up on that.

[Vengeance]

Beaver Killia, on 04 March 2020 - 03:14 PM, said:

Jospheronnie when you win the nom instead of Comrade Sanders please don’t name Klondike Bar or Boot On The Ledge your VP! If you somehow win and then likely die I will go shit on your grave if you make me have to call one of those unqualified dumbasses Sir.

Biden/Gabbard 2020. I called it months ago.

Bloomburger has quit!

Gabbard voted here for impeachment. She couldn't rewin or even run for her congressional seat. She is from Hawaii so it's not like she is going to bring a ton of votes. Oh and she goes on Fox news and defends Trump while he is being impeached. What possible reason could anyone have to have her on their team.

[Vengeance]

QuickTidal, on 04 March 2020 - 03:24 PM, said:

King Lear, on 04 March 2020 - 03:19 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 04 March 2020 - 03:17 PM, said:

King Lear, on 04 March 2020 - 03:01 PM, said:

Why would people assume that if Warren is gone those votes would automatically go to Bernie?.

Because their platforms both lean progressive far more than anyone else in the race, so if you support her, one would assume your second choice would be him. Sure it's not going to be a 1:1 transfer, but I would argue that if people wanted her for her policies, then Bernie would inarguably make the next best choice.

You assume incorrectly. Approximately half her supporters would switch to Biden, so it's still not enough for Bernie to win.

Then those people aren't actually wanting her for policy/platform, and they are stupid.

Here is the thing I like Warren and think that she would make a brilliant President. She isn't going to win. I am pissed that Bernie was a little bitch in 2016 and didn't support Hillary more when she won. It is because of of him and his fanatical only vote for him or don't vote supporters that we have had 4 years of Trump. Bernie does not have a good history of working with anyone to actually get anything real done. To actually succeed in politics you have to be able to make deals. Bernie is an ideological purist. Which does not make for someone who is willing to negotiate. I will vote for the whom ever the nominee is, but I will not vote for the Man who felt that he could not fully Support a Women who beat him in the Primary, in the current primary. Frankly I would rather have Biden in for a term with a solid women VP then Bernie. Because Bernie will never have a congress or Senate that will allow him to convert this country to a Norwegian model. Incremental steps not flash movements are what works. Flash movements would put millions out of work and cause a massive backlash the next election. I want to never see any Trumpion in power ever again.

[King Lear]

Nah incrementalism is bullshit. It was the same liberal argument under Apartheid and it achieves nothing except maintaining existing power structures until something snaps. And in the US if something snaps it's going to snap hard. You don't have the infrastructure to cope with widespread anything: disaster, riots, illness, whatever.

[Obdigore]

Vengeance, on 04 March 2020 - 03:50 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 04 March 2020 - 03:24 PM, said:

King Lear, on 04 March 2020 - 03:19 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 04 March 2020 - 03:17 PM, said:

King Lear, on 04 March 2020 - 03:01 PM, said:

Why would people assume that if Warren is gone those votes would automatically go to Bernie?.

Because their platforms both lean progressive far more than anyone else in the race, so if you support her, one would assume your second choice would be him. Sure it's not going to be a 1:1 transfer, but I would argue that if people wanted her for her policies, then Bernie would inarguably make the next best choice.

You assume incorrectly. Approximately half her supporters would switch to Biden, so it's still not enough for Bernie to win.

Then those people aren't actually wanting her for policy/platform, and they are stupid.

Here is the thing I like Warren and think that she would make a brilliant President. She isn't going to win. I am pissed that Bernie was a little bitch in 2016 and didn't support Hillary more when she won. It is because of of him and his fanatical only vote for him or don't vote supporters that we have had 4 years of Trump. Bernie does not have a good history of working with anyone to actually get anything real done. To actually succeed in politics you have to be able to make deals. Bernie is an ideological purist. Which does not make for someone who is willing to negotiate. I will vote for the whom ever the nominee is, but I will not vote for the Man who felt that he could not fully Support a Women who beat him in the Primary, in the current primary. Frankly I would rather have Biden in for a term with a solid women VP then Bernie. Because Bernie will never have a congress or Senate that will allow him to convert this country to a Norwegian model. Incremental steps not flash movements are what works. Flash movements would put millions out of work and cause a massive backlash the next election. I want to never see any Trumpion in power ever again.

We gotta have a chat.

Most of the 'bernie or bust' are fucking bot farms, trying to put cracks into our democratic institutions. I'd also say that Bernie refuses to compromise his values, in the same way that the new strain of GOP people refuse to compromise theirs. Remember what happened with the ACA? When the democrats, under Obama, compromised and compromised, got to a point that the GOP said they'd vote for it, and then they didn't?

The GOP won't compromise, and so the Overton window in the US slides further and further to the right as the democrats continue to compromise. A continuation of that certainly isn't the solution. 'Return to normal' is a return to the environment let the GOP create the environment to allow Trump, and it will just get worse if we don't fix the fundamental failures in our society. Biden isn't doing that. He's just going to let the GOP do whatever they want in the name of 'negotiation'.

A return to 'normal', even if Biden wins, is the surest way to get a 'Trump' in power again.

PS, I like Warren, and shes absolutely my second choice after Bernie, but only because the others are so trash.

Edit - because 'wins' is a different word when it has a d in it.

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 04 March 2020 - 04:03 PM