[QuickTidal]

One of the things that baffles me most about the US electoral system is the gerrymandering and other voters suppression that occurs.

In Canada, we have in our Charter, the note that all citizens of this country have a right to vote in elections, be they legislature votes or otherwise.... as such if you are a citizen and register with Elections Canada (this is usually done when you become of age to vote, and is free to register for anyone at any time)...then the voter card with all the info you need (where yo go to vote, what you need to bring ect.) shows up at your door like clockwork every time an election rolls arounds that applies to you, federal, provincial, or municipal. That is guaran-fucking-teed in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and if anyone (gov't, party, or otherwise) EVER tried to stop that or suppress it, there would be hell to immediately pay. The best example I have is in 2006 PEI premier attempted to "redraw" map lines (it's more than that, but this is enough info to get the picture) to gerrymander his province votes...and all hell broke loose at the attempt. NO ONE was having it from any province.

That you could have citizens of your country who are barred from voting in "sneaky" ways...is astonishing to me.

[EmperorMagus]

Cause, on 26 October 2017 - 06:56 PM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 26 October 2017 - 04:44 PM, said:

Detour into semantics of racism aside, just a thought:

Who is it that are speaking out about Trump's absolute unfitness in the Republican Party? Those who are no longer seeking office and, therefore, no longer need to pander. This is an example as to what term-limits could accomplish if instituted. Without the need to be re-elected, politicians could actually vote for their conscience and moral reasons rather than what would get them re-elected.

The balance between an all-amateur Congress and professional political class would obviously have to be found, but I can't help but feel it would go a way towards mitigating the absolute asshattery that takes place in order to be reelected every. single. two or six years.

Just a thought.

The negative side of this is they also no longer have a need to vote according to the wishes of their constituents

They don't vote according to the wishes of their constituents as it is. The American legislature has a 10% approval rating.

@QuickTidal: You failed to mention these idea of theirs that its completely okay for Rhode Island and California to have the same number of votes in the Senate, or that the votes people of in smaller states are basically counted twice compared to those of people in NY or CA (in terms of electoral college influence) and that's okay because otherwise populous states would do ... nefarious things, I guess?

I've always held that the US government is different from the dictatorships it so dislikes only in their level of hypocrisy.

[HoosierDaddy]

EmperorMagus, on 26 October 2017 - 07:44 PM, said:

Cause, on 26 October 2017 - 06:56 PM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 26 October 2017 - 04:44 PM, said:

Detour into semantics of racism aside, just a thought:

Who is it that are speaking out about Trump's absolute unfitness in the Republican Party? Those who are no longer seeking office and, therefore, no longer need to pander. This is an example as to what term-limits could accomplish if instituted. Without the need to be re-elected, politicians could actually vote for their conscience and moral reasons rather than what would get them re-elected.

The balance between an all-amateur Congress and professional political class would obviously have to be found, but I can't help but feel it would go a way towards mitigating the absolute asshattery that takes place in order to be reelected every. single. two or six years.

Just a thought.

The negative side of this is they also no longer have a need to vote according to the wishes of their constituents

They don't vote according to the wishes of their constituents as it is. The American legislature has a 10% approval rating.

@QuickTidal: You failed to mention these idea of theirs that its completely okay for Rhode Island and California to have the same number of votes in the Senate, or that the votes people of in smaller states are basically counted twice compared to those of people in NY or CA (in terms of electoral college influence) and that's okay because otherwise populous states would do ... nefarious things, I guess?

I've always held that the US government is different from the dictatorships it so dislikes only in their level of hypocrisy.

Sorry, but this needs to be clarified: Congress as a WHOLE has a low percentage rating. Individual Reps and Sens are MUCH more popular in their districts/states. It's why they keep getting elected.

People don't like OTHER Congressmen.

[worry]

The legacy of excluding certain people (or, let's face it, populations) from voting goes right to the very founding. And I would argue our inability to face our sins head on is a huge contributing factor to our ongoing voting issues. It's one of the through-lines I was talking about. It's even in the way we talk about the voting rights victories we've had. The 19th Amendment "gave" women the right to vote -- how generous! -- vs. women demanding their right through hard, dangerous effort over many years.

[EmperorMagus]

HoosierDaddy, on 26 October 2017 - 08:06 PM, said:

Sorry, but this needs to be clarified: Congress as a WHOLE has a low percentage rating. Individual Reps and Sens are MUCH more popular in their districts/states. It's why they keep getting elected.

People don't like OTHER Congressmen.

Actually, that makes my point totally moot. I didn't think it through before posting.

[worry]

What in the world.

I wager that post isn't gonna stand the test of time, moderation-wise.

[worry]

Brujah, sincerely and with empathy, as someone with some experience in this territory, I would ask you to not do the online meltdown thing. Process your emotions another way. Take some time to calm down (and I also ask you not to get derailed with an "I am calm!" thing). After all that, if you still feel you gotta respond, weigh the productivity of your words against short-term satisfaction based in reactionary venting or scoring points.

[amphibian]

Sure, some white people in what became the USA did not want slaves and actively worked to end it.

But the default was to want and to own slaves. The default was and still is to build and maintain institutions to strip money, freedom, voice, and time from non white people.

Brujah, you are arguing against this by saying slavery is a speed bump, that your specific ancestors were good (go ahead, show your work in saying that), and that you are anti slavery when nobody is asking you to oppose slavery now.

This is still a talk about US politics, which is global and modern and yet still driven by many of the same things that drove it 250 years ago. And exploitative racism is one of those things.

[Silencer]

Y'all can take a break until I get home from work and can sort through this thread and message people individually.
Unless some other mod gets to it first.

[Vengeance]

I am going to open the thread back up. I expect adults to act like adults.

Personal attacks are not tolorated. If you want to discuss race in the context that it applies to general society and how that has effected the different minorities and majorities around the world. Then open up a new thread for it.

If you are talking about the blatant civil war denying causes that the current administration of the US is trying to push then keep it civil.


Back to the topic at hand.

Manafort has been indited and George Papadopoulos plead guilty and was flipped months ago.

Oh and just to clarify the South lost the civil war. They were and still are traitors to the union and anyone who says differently supports traitors. This includes the current President and his staff of Morons.


An added clarification: I am not saying that people who currently live in the south are traitors, just the people who fought for the south during the civil war were and should still be considered traitors. They should not be celebrated and honored. You can bet that england does not celebrate and honor George Washington and Benjamin Franklin (Both of whom were traitors to England and the Crown). The difference between the civil war and the Revolutionary war is that the revolutionary war was won by the Rebals while the Union prevailed in the civil war.

[Mentalist]

Manafort is accused of laundering money for Yanukovych. That's rich.

Realistically, though: even IF there is a finding that Russia influenced the elections in an organized manner, and IF it passes whatever threshold to be considered "significant", what are the actual legal mechanisms for doing anything about it?

[Vengeance]

Mentalist, on 31 October 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

Manafort is accused of laundering money for Yanukovych. That's rich.

Realistically, though: even IF there is a finding that Russia influenced the elections in an organized manner, and IF it passes whatever threshold to be considered "significant", what are the actual legal mechanisms for doing anything about it?

Impeachment.

[QuickTidal]

Vengeance, on 31 October 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

Manafort has been indited and George Papadopoulos plead guilty and was flipped months ago.

^^This is the most interesting one.

Manafort and Gates will fight...but this guy voluntarily turned. That's big. He's also more directly connected to the campaign, isn't he?

It's interesting to see how Fox New is trying to spin this...from defection to Hillary and Uranium....to essentially trying out "They didn't mention the election of the campaign in the indictments....it's all fine"

[QuickTidal]

Vengeance, on 31 October 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

Mentalist, on 31 October 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

Manafort is accused of laundering money for Yanukovych. That's rich.

Realistically, though: even IF there is a finding that Russia influenced the elections in an organized manner, and IF it passes whatever threshold to be considered "significant", what are the actual legal mechanisms for doing anything about it?

Impeachment.

Which is sadly going to require IMMENSE pressure on the GOP to do it...as they are not going to do it with anyone less than Trump himself implicated. Even if Don Jr. and Kushner go down under indictments too....unless big daddy Donny gets the pulls by Mueller...the GOP will just say "You can't fault the father for the sons" or some bullshit.

You will also probably see 45 challenge the Constitution like it's NEVER been challenged before.

[HoosierDaddy]

QuickTidal, on 31 October 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 31 October 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

Manafort has been indited and George Papadopoulos plead guilty and was flipped months ago.

^^This is the most interesting one.

Manafort and Gates will fight...but this guy voluntarily turned. That's big. He's also more directly connected to the campaign, isn't he?

It's interesting to see how Fox New is trying to spin this...from defection to Hillary and Uranium....to essentially trying out "They didn't mention the election of the campaign in the indictments....it's all fine"

Considering Manafort was Campaign Chairman (for a while), I don't think that's possible.

Snowball has officially started rolling down hill.

Edit: Besides impeachment, there is serious talk from big-hitting Republican Senators that Trump is fundamentally unfit, which could bring about a 25th Amendment challenge.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 31 October 2017 - 02:30 PM

[QuickTidal]

HoosierDaddy, on 31 October 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

Edit: Besides impeachment, there is serious talk from big-hitting Republican Senators that Trump is fundamentally unfit, which could bring about a 25th Amendment challenge.

I think what will prove most interesting is if and how he fights either of those things, or tries to. Like I can imagine the subpoena going out to him and put him under indictment and him simply telling Mueller and Co. "No. This is a witch hunt and is a crap charge." and his base would all howl with rage that he was framed or some such... He simply doesn't seem like the type of individual who would willingly cooperate with even law-abiding people who came to get him if he were indicted.

Also, can you indict a sitting president? Is there precedent?

[Vengeance]

Yes you can indict a sitting president.


https://www.washingt...m=.f8bf7812264b

[QuickTidal]

Ugh, and now Trump is trying to distance himself from Papadopolous...this guy is a fucking laugh riot. Everyone who either talks or gets implicated...gets branded as "Not MY friend, I barely knew him!" by Trump.

"Few people knew the young, low level volunteer named George, who has already proven to be a liar. "

[Vengeance]

QuickTidal, on 31 October 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

Ugh, and now Trump is trying to distance himself from Papadopolous...this guy is a fucking laugh riot. Everyone who either talks or gets implicated...gets branded as "Not MY friend, I barely knew him!" by Trump.

"Few people knew the young, low level volunteer named George, who has already proven to be a liar. "

That has been his MO his entire life. Why would it change now. A friend of his who fly on his plane gets arrested as a Mob associate and Trump doesn't know him.

http://www.politifac...een-linked-mob/

[QuickTidal]

Vengeance, on 31 October 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 31 October 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

Ugh, and now Trump is trying to distance himself from Papadopolous...this guy is a fucking laugh riot. Everyone who either talks or gets implicated...gets branded as "Not MY friend, I barely knew him!" by Trump.

"Few people knew the young, low level volunteer named George, who has already proven to be a liar. "

That has been his MO his entire life. Why would it change now. A friend of his who fly on his plane gets arrested as a Mob associate and Trump doesn't know him.

http://www.politifac...een-linked-mob/

This is true. I'm not sure why I expected different.

I saw a great comment on the WaPo yesterday, something like "If he was innocent of any wrong doing he would not be constantly blustering about "no collusion" ect. so hard...he'd let the investigation go without worrying about it if he knew he'd be vindicated out the other end." and then something like "turns out he's learning the hard way that he's no longer just stiffing NJ drywall contractors on their 5-digit payments, this is the big leagues and he's running scared now."