[Macros]

The press is all fake news

[Gorefest]

Macros, on 24 October 2017 - 09:04 AM, said:

The press is all fake news

Well, that's a tad harsh. But it is fair to say that the press is there to sell papers, not to act as a moral guide for the population no matter how much they like to portray that image. So you need to balance your sources carefully to get the full picture.

[amphibian]

Brujah, what do you disagree with about the legacy and institutions of slavery in the United States?

Brujah, on 24 October 2017 - 03:26 AM, said:

amphibian, on 23 October 2017 - 05:00 PM, said:

Want to know something terrifying about the UK? Staffing cuts at the NHS killed approximately 30,000 people in England and Wales in 2015 alone.

https://www.theguard...ty-study-claims

When people talk about the "banality of evil" and what Hannah Arendt meant, they're not talking about the violent murderers. They're talking about things like staffing cuts in healthcare, lack of access, and the mundanity of process that leads to harm to people, the environment, and so on.

But Trump is only talking about terrorists because that's the attention grabber.

Yeah, but amphibian, you're biased, and you've admitted so. You've even went as far to say that ALL white people are responsible for the top echelon of early southern Americans who actually owned slaves.

This might be out of context, but I can't help but think everything you post is extremely biased against all white people.

This forum is extremely left winged, and it's not a bad thing because it allows for our varied members to interact, knowing that the vast majority of white American posters are at the mercy of the Great American Political Machine. And if you think we can stop it, then you're wrong. It rolls along, taken all colored people but one - Green. People with money, and lots of it. Once you realize we're all in the same boat in this thing the better.

[King Lear]

Brujah, on 24 October 2017 - 03:26 AM, said:

amphibian, on 23 October 2017 - 05:00 PM, said:

Want to know something terrifying about the UK? Staffing cuts at the NHS killed approximately 30,000 people in England and Wales in 2015 alone.

https://www.theguard...ty-study-claims

When people talk about the "banality of evil" and what Hannah Arendt meant, they're not talking about the violent murderers. They're talking about things like staffing cuts in healthcare, lack of access, and the mundanity of process that leads to harm to people, the environment, and so on.

But Trump is only talking about terrorists because that's the attention grabber.

Yeah, but amphibian, you're biased, and you've admitted so. You've even went as far to say that ALL white people are responsible for the top echelon of early southern Americans who actually owned slaves.

This might be out of context, but I can't help but think everything you post is extremely biased against all white people.

This forum is extremely left winged, and it's not a bad thing because it allows for our varied members to interact, knowing that the vast majority of white American posters are at the mercy of the Great American Political Machine. And if you think we can stop it, then you're wrong. It rolls along, taken all colored people but one - Green. People with money, and lots of it. Once you realize we're all in the same boat in this thing the better.

This is bullshit, Amp hasn't said much different from what a bunch of white people on this forum have said, but I guess it's harder to accuse white people of reverse racism against white people

[worry]

Yah I didn't post the Puerto Rico thing to merely point out another example of crony capitalism, but because they think (know?) they can get away with it specifically because it's Puerto Rico. There's a reason one of the main lines of attack against Pres. Obama (among GOP insiders at least, if not the base) is that he was an anti-colonialist. Not that it was particularly true either, but even a moderate Dem means that much less blood for the vampires. White supremacy is as an undead twin to capitalism.

[Brujah]

King Lear, on 24 October 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

Brujah, on 24 October 2017 - 03:26 AM, said:

amphibian, on 23 October 2017 - 05:00 PM, said:

Want to know something terrifying about the UK? Staffing cuts at the NHS killed approximately 30,000 people in England and Wales in 2015 alone.

https://www.theguard...ty-study-claims

When people talk about the "banality of evil" and what Hannah Arendt meant, they're not talking about the violent murderers. They're talking about things like staffing cuts in healthcare, lack of access, and the mundanity of process that leads to harm to people, the environment, and so on.

But Trump is only talking about terrorists because that's the attention grabber.

Yeah, but amphibian, you're biased, and you've admitted so. You've even went as far to say that ALL white people are responsible for the top echelon of early southern Americans who actually owned slaves.

This might be out of context, but I can't help but think everything you post is extremely biased against all white people.

This forum is extremely left winged, and it's not a bad thing because it allows for our varied members to interact, knowing that the vast majority of white American posters are at the mercy of the Great American Political Machine. And if you think we can stop it, then you're wrong. It rolls along, taken all colored people but one - Green. People with money, and lots of it. Once you realize we're all in the same boat in this thing the better.

This is bullshit, Amp hasn't said much different from what a bunch of white people on this forum have said, but I guess it's harder to accuse white people of reverse racism against white people

I'm talking exclusively about posts Amph and I have made directly to each other. KL, you know I like and respect you, but you weren't privy to what was said.

My family is multi racial, not white.

This post has been edited by Brujah: 24 October 2017 - 07:13 PM

[Brujah]

worry, on 24 October 2017 - 04:22 AM, said:

I don't concede any of that as true.

Wow, worry. I expected more.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[Brujah]

amphibian, on 24 October 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

Brujah, what do you disagree with about the legacy and institutions of slavery in the United States?

Brujah, on 24 October 2017 - 03:26 AM, said:

amphibian, on 23 October 2017 - 05:00 PM, said:

Want to know something terrifying about the UK? Staffing cuts at the NHS killed approximately 30,000 people in England and Wales in 2015 alone.

https://www.theguard...ty-study-claims

When people talk about the "banality of evil" and what Hannah Arendt meant, they're not talking about the violent murderers. They're talking about things like staffing cuts in healthcare, lack of access, and the mundanity of process that leads to harm to people, the environment, and so on.

But Trump is only talking about terrorists because that's the attention grabber.

Yeah, but amphibian, you're biased, and you've admitted so. You've even went as far to say that ALL white people are responsible for the top echelon of early southern Americans who actually owned slaves.

This might be out of context, but I can't help but think everything you post is extremely biased against all white people.

This forum is extremely left winged, and it's not a bad thing because it allows for our varied members to interact, knowing that the vast majority of white American posters are at the mercy of the Great American Political Machine. And if you think we can stop it, then you're wrong. It rolls along, taken all colored people but one - Green. People with money, and lots of it. Once you realize we're all in the same boat in this thing the better.

The same disagreement we already had. You said that every single white southerner during the slave era wanted slaves, and would have had them if they could. You made similarities to wanting to own cars. You also said that black people can't be racist.

Slavery was and is despicable. I didn't like your accusation that ALL white people today should be held responsible for what happened 200 years ago.

[worry]

Sorry, B, but nothing in your post rang true. I do agree that it's unlikely DJT will be impeached, but I wouldn't say it was as low as a "snowball's chance". And Obamacare is still under threat from both the admin and congress, even if the direct repeal efforts failed this year. The lobbyist thing, I guess it depends how you wanna define "have to", but his admin is already full of lobbyists and quasi-lobbyists, and I don't see any evidence he's less prone to working with/for them than other politicians. In terms of the numbers, that's clearly not true. DJT got fewer votes than HRC and she's not even particularly left-leaning.

I don't know about this past conversation you had with amph or its particulars, but:

Slavery didn't "happen" 200 years ago. It wasn't a flash flood. There were African slaves in Jamestown. Also it hasn't even been 200 years since the Civil War, let alone the end of slavery. A woman whose parents were literally slaves just died a few weeks ago: https://www.washingt...6a3a_story.html

America's success has largely been built on the back's of forced, unpaid labor, the wealth accrued on that labor defines power as we know it today, and denying that legacy and its through-line to the present is the poison in our hearts. And it's not an America-only issue by any means, but our rewriting history on this subject is like top echelon pathological denial.

[worry]

I will say there are (and have always been) pockets of dirt poor whites in the U.S. who are neglected by both (maybe all) parties and who -- while in other hypothetical arenas would benefit from white privilege -- see little or none of this because of the isolation in which they live. There are locations where, just due to demographics, poor whites are the bottom rung on their particular ladder. Even Bernie and Liz Warren, who are better than most American politicians on the subject, tend to cite the middle class and the "working poor" with much more general lines about poverty. Perhaps because, like the bottom rungs of most populations, they don't vote.

None of that is a reason to stop talking about other issues, or abandon "identity politics" for a pure-economics take -- and again, these aren't the Tea Partyers or other middle class & well off whites with a chip on their shoulder, and there might not be any political or electoral gain from it at all -- but I do wish poverty classes of all stripes were given more space in political rhetoric generally.

This post has been edited by worry: 24 October 2017 - 08:18 PM

[King Lear]

I had a bunch of replies typed up but I'm just going to go - what worry said also slavery is still happening (Jim Crow -> Prison Industrial Complex -> ??? technobro distopia on mars probably)

also this tweet


 notnormal.PNG (41.86K)
Number of downloads: 1

[amphibian]

I had a very hard time finding the posts Brujah is referring to in which we interact. We haven't interacted much. There aren't any private messages between us, unless Brujah is a Mafia alt and is actually another member.

I think he's referring to this thread, which started on South African racism and then expanded to racism globally (and the American flavor was heavily discussed): https://forum.malaza...what-racism-is/

I still think that black people cannot be racist because to be racist requires the power and social gravity of institutions, which black people do not have en masse or access to such, whereas white people do.

The vast majority of white southerners (and many northeners and westerners) wanted slaves when they were legal. This is undeniable. There was a civil war over this issue. I may have made a car analogy because humans were literally seen as that kind of property and as keys to increased wealth.

[amphibian]

This is my thinking from three years ago:

amphibian, on 12 July 2014 - 04:59 AM, said:

No, this may be somewhat semantics, but I prefer to think of it as a person has racist thoughts or engages in a racist act. Racism itself is something much larger. We as individuals aren't defined by any -ism, but in the aggregate, yes, they coalesce around us.

I still think this. My previous post in which I say "black people [in America] cannot be racist" is wrong then. Black Americans cannot engage in racism, but they can commit a racist act - but it is not backed by the institutional power that accompanies a racist act by a white American.

[worry]

Yah, I actually still get surprised, like caught off guard -- even at this late date -- when people conflate racism (institutional, systemic) with bigotry (personal level). The distinction seems obvious. I've tried to wean myself off of using the noun "racist" to describe individual people, particularly non-public figures, though I'm still not 100% consistent.

[Brujah]

worry, on 24 October 2017 - 08:00 PM, said:

Sorry, B, but nothing in your post rang true. I do agree that it's unlikely DJT will be impeached, but I wouldn't say it was as low as a "snowball's chance". And Obamacare is still under threat from both the admin and congress, even if the direct repeal efforts failed this year. The lobbyist thing, I guess it depends how you wanna define "have to", but his admin is already full of lobbyists and quasi-lobbyists, and I don't see any evidence he's less prone to working with/for them than other politicians. In terms of the numbers, that's clearly not true. DJT got fewer votes than HRC and she's not even particularly left-leaning.

I don't know about this past conversation you had with amph or its particulars, but:

Slavery didn't "happen" 200 years ago. It wasn't a flash flood. There were African slaves in Jamestown. Also it hasn't even been 200 years since the Civil War, let alone the end of slavery. A woman whose parents were literally slaves just died a few weeks ago: https://www.washingt...6a3a_story.html

America's success has largely been built on the back's of forced, unpaid labor, the wealth accrued on that labor defines power as we know it today, and denying that legacy and its through-line to the present is the poison in our hearts. And it's not an America-only issue by any means, but our rewriting history on this subject is like top echelon pathological denial.

Nothing in my post rang true...next line>
I do agree....
It appears something did ring true.

You're choosing to argue over "a snowball's chance in hell?" Would you have preferred an ice cube, instant frozen jello via liquid nitrogen? This is nothing short of pedantic.

As well as, "slavery didn't happen 200 years ago." Actually it did. We all here know what I meant when I turned the phrase 200 years ago that I was using a vague phrase. Nitpicking over the date is also superfluous. You don't need to reach so hard to say absolutely nothing.

I was talking about a time when Amph said that ALL white people wanted slaves when I said that not all white people had slaves. None of this opened up a discussion on the timeline of slavery. I wasn't debating anything you chose to espouse.

Obama care isn't going anywhere.

America was not built on the backs of forced, unpaid labor. It was a speed bump on a highway of change. America's wealth was mostly accrued from winning wars, being the first to do the most horrible act in history - dropping the atomic weapons, and being the next new upcoming country at the right time in history. China now has this glorious position.

Perhaps you'd now like to move on to the cultural revolution in China, Tiananmen Square, and the politics of Chairman Mao?

[worry]

Okay, Brujah. Sounds good. Nice talking to you.

[D'rek]

amphibian, on 24 October 2017 - 11:26 PM, said:

This is my thinking from three years ago:

amphibian, on 12 July 2014 - 04:59 AM, said:

No, this may be somewhat semantics, but I prefer to think of it as a person has racist thoughts or engages in a racist act. Racism itself is something much larger. We as individuals aren't defined by any -ism, but in the aggregate, yes, they coalesce around us.

I still think this. My previous post in which I say "black people [in America] cannot be racist" is wrong then. Black Americans cannot engage in racism, but they can commit a racist act - but it is not backed by the institutional power that accompanies a racist act by a white American.

worry, on 24 October 2017 - 11:43 PM, said:

Yah, I actually still get surprised, like caught off guard -- even at this late date -- when people conflate racism (institutional, systemic) with bigotry (personal level). The distinction seems obvious. I've tried to wean myself off of using the noun "racist" to describe individual people, particularly non-public figures, though I'm still not 100% consistent.

Weird, maybe it's a linguo-regional thing.

Up here, the definition of a person being a "racist" is just "they did/do a racist thing", so it's an applicable term for anyone who commits a racist act. The word has no connotations of pertaining to a particular scale. I wonder if there are other variations per region or dialect out there.

[worry]

It's not that that connotation doesn't exist here too, it's just that the one we're referring too is the more academic use, and it's becoming more and more commonly the popular use too. But it's not nearly universal, and so the two definitions live uncomfortably side by side, even sometimes in the same conversation...as you can see, BK is clearly using the more lay definition. It actually can cause a lot of friction, which is why I personally try to keep them divorced (and to be clear, it's a preference of mine, not necessarily of everybody's). It just seems handier in any conversation on the subject.

This post has been edited by worry: 25 October 2017 - 12:32 AM

[amphibian]

Calling the death of millions of First Nations people via infectious disease, enslavement, resettlement, and wars plus the forcible enslavement, murder, plundering, and dehumanizing of black people for centuries "speed bumps on the highway of change" is one of the most callous things I've ever read.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 25 October 2017 - 03:03 AM

[Brujah]

worry, on 25 October 2017 - 12:06 AM, said:

Okay, Brujah. Sounds good. Nice talking to you.

I don't know if you mean this, or that you realize that we may be so far from each other on certain points that there's little room left for any constructive discussion.

Either way, I have ALWAYS found it nice talking to you, and reading posts with your special humor.