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The USA Politics Thread

#4641 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 10:30 PM

So this woman has written was I was trying to allude to on the last page...

Quote

I don't like to talk about politics on Facebook-- political history is my job, after all, and you are my friends-- but there is an important non-partisan point to make today.

What Bannon is doing, most dramatically with last night's ban on immigration from seven predominantly Muslim countries-- is creating what is known as a "shock event." Such an event is unexpected and confusing and throws a society into chaos. People scramble to react to the event, usually along some fault line that those responsible for the event can widen by claiming that they alone know how to restore order. When opponents speak out, the authors of the shock event call them enemies. As society reels and tempers run high, those responsible for the shock event perform a sleight of hand to achieve their real goal, a goal they know to be hugely unpopular, but from which everyone has been distracted as they fight over the initial event. There is no longer concerted opposition to the real goal; opposition divides along the partisan lines established by the shock event.

Last night's Executive Order has all the hallmarks of a shock event. It was not reviewed by any governmental agencies or lawyers before it was released, and counterterrorism experts insist they did not ask for it. People charged with enforcing it got no instructions about how to do so. Courts immediately have declared parts of it unconstitutional, but border police in some airports are refusing to stop enforcing it.

Predictably, chaos has followed and tempers are hot.

My point today is this: unless you are the person setting it up, it is in no one's interest to play the shock event game. It is designed explicitly to divide people who might otherwise come together so they cannot stand against something its authors think they won't like. I don't know what Bannon is up to-- although I have some guesses-- but because I know Bannon's ideas well, I am positive that there is not a single person whom I consider a friend on either side of the aisle-- and my friends range pretty widely-- who will benefit from whatever it is. If the shock event strategy works, though, many of you will blame each other, rather than Bannon, for the fallout. And the country will have been tricked into accepting their real goal.

But because shock events destabilize a society, they can also be used positively. We do not have to respond along old fault lines. We could just as easily reorganize into a different pattern that threatens the people who sparked the event. A successful shock event depends on speed and chaos because it requires knee-jerk reactions so that people divide along established lines. This, for example, is how Confederate leaders railroaded the initial southern states out of the Union. If people realize they are being played, though, they can reach across old lines and reorganize to challenge the leaders who are pulling the strings. This was Lincoln's strategy when he joined together Whigs, Democrats, Free-Soilers, anti-Nebraska voters, and nativists into the new Republican Party to stand against the Slave Power. Five years before, such a coalition would have been unimaginable. Members of those groups agreed on very little other than that they wanted all Americans to have equal economic opportunity. Once they began to work together to promote a fair economic system, though, they found much common ground. They ended up rededicating the nation to a "government of the people, by the people, and for the people."

Confederate leaders and Lincoln both knew about the political potential of a shock event. As we are in the midst of one, it seems worth noting that Lincoln seemed to have the better idea about how to use it.

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#4642 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 11:00 PM

View PostCheesewiz, on 30 January 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 30 January 2017 - 08:54 PM, said:

View PostCheesewiz, on 30 January 2017 - 08:22 PM, said:

Lmao I've been banned from TFN for being a Trump voter.



You do know loud and proud Trumpists have been slamming TFA and R1 because of the female leads and racially diverse casts, right?


QT could prob read it and see it was cause I was a Trump voter basically.


I was perma banned a few weeks back for DARING to argue with a particularly nasty Mod who pushed my buttons one too many times...so I never saw it sadly.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 30 January 2017 - 11:01 PM

"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora

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#4643 User is offline   Una 

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 02:49 AM

Damn it all to Hell! I am about 95% sure that yesterday's attack on a mosque in Quebec City was influenced, sparked, emboldened, whatever you like to call it, by the crazy white supremacist shit going down south of the border. Six people died, last time I checked. It was only lucky that the women and children were in a different room upstairs. I like my peaceful, inclusive, stable society and I do not appreciate what this is doing to us.

I don't want to look at what is going on in the US because it feels like a bad dream, but I can't look away! I keep looking for a way this can end peacefully and I just don't. They are THIS close to a constitutional crisis, unless it's already gone over that line at the time of writing. Reports are very conflicting. Impeachment would be the best case scenario at this point, but I don't see that happening because your Congress appears to be populated by opportunistic jellyfish. I was worried that Donald Trump would start WWIII somehow, but I am seriously worried that he's going to trigger a civil war first. If he keeps up antagonizing people at this pace, I don't see how he doesn't end up with an angry populace surrounding government buildings calling for his and Bannon's heads within the next 4 months, and then anything can happen. But even that would be preferable to what's going to happen if he seizes control of the press, disbands all your democratic institutions, and fills all important roles with his own Yes Men. He's almost halfway there.

To be honest, I was surprised the pulled his Muslim ban so quickly. I was expecting more for him and his cronies to wait a bit to lull you into a false sense of security that things weren't going to be so bad after all, quietly lay the groundwork, then break this out. You might still have a chance. Resist while you still can.

If it comes to it, I fully support our government accepting refugees fleeing America, regardless of race or creed. I live close to the border, like most of our population. If any of you can make do with a sofa, I can give you that and a hot meal on your travels. So there's that.

This post has been edited by Una: 31 January 2017 - 02:52 AM

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#4644 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 10:19 AM

I'll say one thing positive about Trump and the 2016 election - it's made my students crazy interested in politics, even local issues. Most of it amounts 'Trump is crazy as fuck' but over the past two days I've had several conversations about all sorts of political issues. One was a 13 year old who was asking me why the PM didn't slam Trump's immigration orders, another 15 year old asked me about our own immigration policies (specifically vis-a-vis Muslims), and my Year 10 class (15-16 year olds) spent 25 mins today discussing the issues around labour importation (spurred on by comments of our Leader of the Opposition yesterday). I was supposed to be teaching them about the Treaty of Versailles, but oh well.

As far as the shooting goes, at least Fox News was willing to call a spade a spade and refer to this as a terror attack without quotation marks (even if the story is not featured as headline news). Not so the NY Post or the WSJ, who similar to Fox have Trump's AG firing as their 'top story'. They may do so as more facts come to light, but it will make me really angry if they try to brush this off as a 'lone wolf', or ignore it entirely.
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#4645 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 02:03 PM

So (as far as I can gather) the attorney general doesn't like trump's ban, thinks it's illegal so she gets the boot?
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#4646 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 02:09 PM

Also this, the lift the mood
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#4647 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 02:27 PM

View PostCheesewiz, on 31 January 2017 - 12:18 AM, said:

Oh shit you didn't tell me that. Which one was it?


I'll PM you their handle.


View PostMacros, on 31 January 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

So (as far as I can gather) the attorney general doesn't like trump's ban, thinks it's illegal so she gets the boot?


This was my question as well.

I thought the whole US system was "checks and balances" If Trump can just fire who he doesn't like...how is he being "checked"? Like how can he have the Joint Chiefs of staff be Not present at meetings and an outsider like Bannon present?

I thought the US system was designed to prevent such flagrant disregard for the running of the office?
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora

"Someone will always try to sell you despair, just so they don't feel alone." ~Ursula Vernon
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#4648 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 04:15 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 31 January 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

View PostCheesewiz, on 31 January 2017 - 12:18 AM, said:

Oh shit you didn't tell me that. Which one was it?


I'll PM you their handle.


View PostMacros, on 31 January 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

So (as far as I can gather) the attorney general doesn't like trump's ban, thinks it's illegal so she gets the boot?


This was my question as well.

I thought the whole US system was "checks and balances" If Trump can just fire who he doesn't like...how is he being "checked"? Like how can he have the Joint Chiefs of staff be Not present at meetings and an outsider like Bannon present?

I thought the US system was designed to prevent such flagrant disregard for the running of the office?



The attorney General serves at the Presidents pleasure. This was a temp AG while the Trump Guy goes through the Senate approval process. She was a hold over from obama that was asked to stay on through the transition. She was confirmed by the Senate as the Temp AG. Now that Trump has fired her they promoted another Federal Distric AG to Temp AG and he has said that he will defend the immigration.

The checks that you are referring to would occur at the Federal Court. Which there should be hell to pay for the various heads of Customs and Borders (at the airports ) who failed to follow the judges restraining order on Trumps immigration order. That is is direct violation of a federal Judges order and everyone who violated it should be found in contempt and jailed.
How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
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#4649 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 04:30 PM

Ah! Okay, that makes sense. Thanks Veng.
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora

"Someone will always try to sell you despair, just so they don't feel alone." ~Ursula Vernon
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#4650 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 05:42 PM

View PostCheesewiz, on 31 January 2017 - 12:18 AM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 30 January 2017 - 11:00 PM, said:

View PostCheesewiz, on 30 January 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 30 January 2017 - 08:54 PM, said:

View PostCheesewiz, on 30 January 2017 - 08:22 PM, said:

Lmao I've been banned from TFN for being a Trump voter.



You do know loud and proud Trumpists have been slamming TFA and R1 because of the female leads and racially diverse casts, right?


QT could prob read it and see it was cause I was a Trump voter basically.


I was perma banned a few weeks back for DARING to argue with a particularly nasty Mod who pushed my buttons one too many times...so I never saw it sadly.


Oh shit you didn't tell me that. Which one was it? Idk if I was permaband or not but my 15th anniversary is only a few days away on there. The whole thing reminded me why stopped posting there as my main board in fav of all you loveable bastards. Our mods aren't one sided except where it is 100% due. They insulted my southern words and didn't get fused at cause the Mod is team HRC.


For those of us not in the know what is TFN, TFA, R1 and HRC?
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#4651 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 05:43 PM

The Force Dot Net, The Force Awakens, Rogue One, and Hillary Clinton (I think?)
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora

"Someone will always try to sell you despair, just so they don't feel alone." ~Ursula Vernon
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#4652 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 06:02 PM

Hillary Rodham Clinton, yes.

Can't wait to see who he chooses as Scalia's replacement. The graphs I saw showed one FAR right on the judicial spectrum (but not as far as Thomas), someone else pretty much around Alito (moderately right), and someone pretty center (Roberts). I'm thinking it's classic negotiation to get the Alito like candidate by threatening with the strict constructionist.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#4653 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 06:21 PM

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 31 January 2017 - 06:02 PM, said:

Hillary Rodham Clinton, yes.

Can't wait to see who he chooses as Scalia's replacement. The graphs I saw showed one FAR right on the judicial spectrum (but not as far as Thomas), someone else pretty much around Alito (moderately right), and someone pretty center (Roberts). I'm thinking it's classic negotiation to get the Alito like candidate by threatening with the strict constructionist.



We should block all of them til the midterms.
How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
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#4654 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 06:23 PM

Oh, I agree. I'm just speaking of his nominee to replace.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#4655 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 06:26 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 31 January 2017 - 05:43 PM, said:

The Force Dot Net, The Force Awakens, Rogue One, and Hillary Clinton (I think?)


Ha I thought these were all new exciting political or literary forums that were springing up and it turns out it's fucking Star Wars. Leave it to Trump to rally the forces of the Dark Side.
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#4656 User is offline   Malankazooie 

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 06:36 PM

Yeah, never been to those forums, but if I voted for Trump I certainly would not go there and gleefully proclaim I did. Just seems like you're trolling at that point and shouldn't be surprised that gets you banned, especially with how elevated tensions have been in the week+ since the inauguration.
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#4657 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 07:41 PM

View PostVengeance, on 30 January 2017 - 09:24 PM, said:

View PostCheesewiz, on 30 January 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 30 January 2017 - 08:54 PM, said:

View PostCheesewiz, on 30 January 2017 - 08:22 PM, said:

Lmao I've been banned from TFN for being a Trump voter.



You do know loud and proud Trumpists have been slamming TFA and R1 because of the female leads and racially diverse casts, right?


Are you being serious? I can't tell.

I quoted a Mod who called us all uneducated bigots so I knew I was gonna be in crosshairs, then someone attempted to make fun of my southern typing so I hit back. Another person decided to jump on the train so I hit back jokingly on them with a :lol: at the end. The Mod decreed I was baiting so then I did indeed bait the Mod by saying reason he targeted me was because he was biased and that I quoted him originally. Banned. Amusing

QT could prob read it and see it was cause I was a Trump voter basically.


He is being serious. It was quite a big deal.


My point was that being an outspoken Trumpist on SW boards is like painting a big neon target on your face right now.
It wasn't you personally (unless it was but i'll give you a shred more credit than that), but that fandom seems to have taken it severely, wrapping up with all the other post-Trumpscension reaction. Self-identifying as a trumpist is the text equivalent of 'come at me darth bro'.
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#4658 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 07:57 PM

View PostUna, on 31 January 2017 - 02:49 AM, said:

Damn it all to Hell! I am about 95% sure that yesterday's attack on a mosque in Quebec City was influenced, sparked, emboldened, whatever you like to call it, by the crazy white supremacist shit going down south of the border. Six people died, last time I checked. It was only lucky that the women and children were in a different room upstairs. I like my peaceful, inclusive, stable society and I do not appreciate what this is doing to us.


I am rather curious to see whether the shooter turns out to be a radical or a mental health case. It's kind of easy to point south for this, but it's not as tho QC doesn't have it's share of racism. Peaceful inclusive eastern and northern Quebec was utterly ready to support the burqa ban last year. This particular Mosque had a pig head dumped on its steps months ago.


Quote

...If it comes to it, I fully support our government accepting refugees fleeing America, regardless of race or creed. I live close to the border, like most of our population. If any of you can make do with a sofa, I can give you that and a hot meal on your travels. So there's that.


Refugees who couldn't stay in America, or Americans looking to become refugees? :lol:
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#4659 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 08:19 PM

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 31 January 2017 - 06:02 PM, said:

Hillary Rodham Clinton, yes.

Can't wait to see who he chooses as Scalia's replacement. The graphs I saw showed one FAR right on the judicial spectrum (but not as far as Thomas), someone else pretty much around Alito (moderately right), and someone pretty center (Roberts). I'm thinking it's classic negotiation to get the Alito like candidate by threatening with the strict constructionist.

Well according to this it will be someone called Gorsuch. Not sure about the veracity of that account of course.
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#4660 User is offline   Una 

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 08:39 PM

View PostAbyss, on 31 January 2017 - 07:57 PM, said:

I am rather curious to see whether the shooter turns out to be a radical or a mental health case. It's kind of easy to point south for this, but it's not as tho QC doesn't have it's share of racism. Peaceful inclusive eastern and northern Quebec was utterly ready to support the burqa ban last year. This particular Mosque had a pig head dumped on its steps months ago.



Well, more information coming out. Looking more radical than psychiatric, although, and I say that as a human as well as a health professional, taking a gun and shooting up a community space is not the action of a mentally stable person. I'm sure if you sat down with him and got him to talk, you could generate a pretty good list of psychiatric conditions to potentially label him with. Guy was apparently into white supremacist groups, a Donald Trump fan in particular, and a known anti-feminist troll. I'm from BC. Canada has been really good to me and my family. My parents first landed in North America via the USA on student visas and, now more than ever, I thank my lucky stars they didn't stay there. I know Quebec can be pretty weird and racist, but they usually kind of passive-aggressive in their racial snobbery. I don't think it's a stretch to say that people who would otherwise just complain at the dinner table in the safety of their inner circle about "those ethnics" have been recently more emboldened to voice these opinions in a more public fashion, and this is what you get from that.



View PostAbyss, on 31 January 2017 - 07:57 PM, said:

Refugees who couldn't stay in America, or Americans looking to become refugees? :lol:



I think it will be the former in the first wave, but should things go badly, the latter in the second wave. I live with my extended family, so I don't have authority to invite anyone for long-term hosting. But there are community organizations that I can easily join that set up that sort of thing, including my boyfriend's church. They've already adopted a Syrian family or two and I've been told I can come help out whenever I'm feeling up to it. I was all set to go volunteer with the immigrant settlement services in my province last year, but I got diagnosed with a life-threatening illness the day before the orientation meeting, so that never happened and I feel bad about it. I really want to do my part.
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